Which culture?
 

I was reading a thread a couple of moments ago and in a fit of philosophical boredom, started thinking about how this issue embeds itself in thread after thread here.

The thread I was reading was a pretty straightforward one on finances in Paris, but soon launched itself into the issues of displays of wealth, fashion... the usual. This is it, if anyone wanted to chip in.

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34688441

I didn't want to cause it to stray any further than it has, so decided to troll off on my own.

The issue I thought might be interesting to discuss in it's own right is: Which culture prevails when (in the wise words of Wes Fowler), one is a stranger in a strange land? Your own culture? Or do you try to mirror those of whom you visit?

I was reading the view of one European that since young Europeans typically do not spend above a certain level, that a young American should follow suit. At least, that's what I thought I read. Several others pointed out that these sorts of views often spill over into speaking patterns, fashion and the like.

Personally, I feel that this isn't really very much about nationality. Many people are basically centered around the culture they grew up with as the "normal" one, even if subconsciously. And while I feel more comfortable trying to adapt somewhat to what I *think* are the norms of where I'm going, I'm sure books and forums really can't be an accurate reflection of what I'm likely to experience. Even at home, 20 miles distance can change the local culture significantly (but perhaps not to the eyes of an outsider). And then too I think of how so many from Europe, for instance, don't think twice about carrying with them their own culture outside of their own home base. Been reading about Europeans going topless, for instance, in conservative countries like Egypt or Thailand, without that same sort of regard for local custom.

Too much analysis, I know, for a question without an answer, but I'm....

Bored @ home,
Cliff

you may be bored but it brings out an interesting topic, No one country lacks insensitive souls who travel to other places with customs and attitudes other than what they perceive as correct.

I've been thinking about some related points. Another recent thread had a post chastising a poster for wanting to buy a part from a gondola in Venice. The person objecting, who lives in Europe, said this was symptomatic of an American desire to collect "trophies", while the original poster said they were thinking more on the lines of a memento than a trophy.

My first reaction was to wonder why anyone would criticize a traveler for wanting a souvenir of a different culture. But then I wondered whether that is a trait more specific to the American culture than the European one. Is this something like "leave only footprints, take only photographs"?

On the other hand, I have an addiction to European home decorating magazines, which are filled with pictures of homes decorated with items brought back from all over the world.

OMG!! speaking of other cultures. I moments ago got a cnn breaking news that 18,000 were killed in the Pakistan earthquake and 41,000 injured.
This has been a horrible year for so many countries as well as for us.
We need to grasp the enormity of it all and reach out.

I believe, unfortunately, that the one thing all cultures have in common is their ethnocentric view.

If we travel, only to judge other cultures against our own, then we have lost a great opportunity to learn and grow, not only as individuals but as a society.

That's horrible, mimi. I haven't watched the news all day - sad to hear this news.

I thought maybe you had misread the numbers - - this is truly mind-numbing!

Will I seem insensitive if I change the subject - - as this earthquake news is too awful to fathom.

At the bottom of the same page -- a pure coincidence, I have to assume - - was this story listed under "World News".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051009/...agritourism_dc

Happier, and actually related to Europe travel, and at least vaguely related to the original question (though I am not complaining about the tangential remarks about the earthquake).

In a sad/fascinating way, I am watching some local news right now... and this earthquake story hasn't even come on yet, as far as I can tell. It's going to be trumped by football scores, I believe.

Hard to end this post, as I customarily do... with...

Best wishes,

Rex

That is truly horrible news Mimi. I'd heard early second hand reports of a quake, but had no idea the magnitude.

Incredible news, and it does put insignificant questions like the one I posed in perspective. Thanks for sharing that - I've been on CNN as you posted. There's a gentleman I occasionally correspond with who lives in Pakistan and I am so grateful he is not in that area of the country (he's in Quetta) but so sad for everyone affected. I hope all who can, reach out to help however they can.

The CNN website has an article that a spokesman for the President of Pakistan states they believe that 18,000 people have been killed but the number has not been confirmed. In any case the deaths, injuries and the horror are overwhelming.

Hello Clifton, not feeling terrible clever due to a terrible cold but just wanted to comment that I think most of us carry our culture background with us to other countries. Having said that I think it is wise and good for travellers to learn and know about the customs and manners in the countries they are travelling to. That, IMO, is a matter of respect. It also makes for a more enjoyable trip.

Regarding Clifton's start here, It's a cliche, but I think we have to, all of us, respect differences. I'm often one to be concerned about "Ugly American"-ism (being an American myself) but there are other times when I see equal arrogance across the globe, and I also don't think that the comment from the 'young European' on the thread Clifton cited, is a scientific survey of what European youth think that American youth should be spending on their hotels.

What anyone anywhere spends on anything to do with travel is nobody's d. business. That particular budget of $250 was blown way out of proportion, as if someone had announced they would be spending thousands each day, not that there's anything wrong with that either.

While we Americans, rightfully, try to develop an appreciation for the length, breadth, and depth of older cultures, it is also true that, for better or worse, jeans and Coke and McDonalds and Andy Warhol and Elvis Presley and Hollywood have had influences that long ago crossed the Atlantic and the Pacific. The money goes along with those influences.

If it WERE to be true that some percentage of Europeans think that some Americans spend too much while traveling in Europe, too d. bad. As long as people behave with respect, appreciation, and tact, to imply that it is insensitive to spend someone's idea of 'too much' money is just silly.
All the European airlines and tourism offices and travel agencies and hotels are eager to court tourists of all origins--it creates jobs and better economies. Only someone truly out of touch with today's world economy would object to someone else's spending habits. I think of that everytime I see Japanese tourists lined up at Louis Vuitton in Paris, and in Coach in New York--clearly thosse tourists daily budgets are also quite large.

As Thomas Friedman says, the world is now flat.

Elaine, your post got me thinking and chuckling. Younger friends that I have in Italy come here and they shop, shop and shop! One time one young gentleman purchased so much that when we got him to SFO he had to go to a special area of the airport, unpack his bags, buy boxes, pack them to have them shipped back to Italy. We had his purchases all over the floor, trying to cram them in the boxes. He had to spend a fortunate to get them home. I have the photos! I tried to tell him he was not going to be able to check all his belongings at the check in.

And Europeans come here and are able to shop because of the strong Euro compared to our US Dollar.

LoveItaly, elaine, I have to agree with what you've said to the degree that it seems reasonable that a certain amount of balance would be called for. Perhaps to allow for a little "self" to remain even when traveling, in the same way we'd want others to be themselves were we to encounter them in our hometowns.

I wouldn't expect a European or Japanese to be "more American" than they are, if I met them here on the streets of Memphis, but I might hope that they'd taken the time to learn what's not acceptable to the average American (such as pushing in line).

At the same time, I'd hope that I'd taken the trouble to learn how not to generally offend the citizens of my next destination. I feel they should be able reasonably expect that from me. And that's not to say that I won't encounter individuals with extraordinary expectations that I couldn't have forseen! But outside of that, I'd still prefer to be the mess that I am.

On the Europe board, there tends to be more of a focus on these things. Fitting obviously reaches it's limits, the further one goes from outside the norm. How many try to "fit in" while in Paris that would throw those concerns out the window if in the Far East or India or the Middle East? Awareness of how to display some respect for differences makes more sense to me, once it's looked at from a wider scope.

As to spending... there too, I have difficulty establishing what the line, if any, is. Is it awful to spend the same amount in, say Bangkok, where one of the best hotels (one is often ranked THE best) in the world costs $200 a night? Not my style, but it's less than many in Europe. And frankly, the ability to do so is hardly an "American" thing. Income is widely varied by location in the US. New Yorkers will make far more for the same work as someone here in Memphis does, and may or may not have more of it left over. Costs less to fly from NY to Europe, so therefore more left for shopping. Just seems like too many variables for a person to make a judgement about what they should or shouldn't be spending on a trip (or anything else).

On the other hand, I'd just been watching Bono on the late night show the other night. He was asked how he does with his success, still living in Ireland as he does.

He was talking about the "tall poppy" syndrome. My wife agreed that they have the "tall poppy" syndrome in Australia as well. He was saying how he liked the US in that when a person saw that big house on the hill, they may say to themselves "someday, I'm going to live in that house!" In Ireland, he was saying, the thought is more along the lines of "someday I'm going to get the B*****D that lives in that house". lol.

I may not agree with everything about the cultures I visit, but it's fascinating anyway, and it's very useful to be aware of the differences.

Clifton, I agree with your thoughts. And of course I am sure that we as travellers, even with the best intentions, sometimes do something that does not seem appropriate in another country.

I seldom watch TV but about once a month I turn on Oprah and I always smile to myself because she has a habit of sitting with her legs crossed and the bottom of one shoe facing the camera. In Italy showing the sole of your shoe to others is considered very rude. But how many Americans know that?

And I have to bit my lip with Italians, as they also don't seem to understand the concept of standing in line. I have to remind myself of that everytime I am there.

Hopefully all of us try our very best to "fit it" when travelling and hopefully most of us have made some effort to find out the customs of other countries before we visit them.

I do always feel bad when people seem so overly concerned about how to dress in another country. If one dresses like a gentleman or lady they will be just fine. If one just displays common courtesy and are well mannered any little breach of etiquette will normally be overlooked I believe.

And I thought you were talking about opium. LOL

Oh I love it when you get all philosophical Clifton!
I don't have much to say here, it has to sit and mull for a while.
But I did have one thought about this remark..
<i>I wouldn't expect a European or Japanese to be &quot;more American&quot; than they are, if I met them here on the streets of Memphis, but I might hope that they'd taken the time to learn what's not acceptable to the average American (such as pushing in line).</i>
But if you were in say, Germany, and standing in line, the Germans would be pushing and breaking in line too, how would that affect you? Would you want to bring your American sensibilities to that situation , in that country?

Every time I meet someone from another country, visiting ours ( the US) I am so happy that they bring some tiny bit of that place with them. They will meet people who might never ever think of going to , say, Japan..but after meeting or seeing or talking to a Japanese visitor, their curiousity about that far away place will be piqued and that might set them off on a trip someday.
Or they might just see how someone in a place that they will never visit, looks , behaves, thinks about something..and will have been changed a tiny bit by that.

That's true, LI. And I was trying to figure out how I'd fit in on that trip through Maramures. Don't think that would have worked out that well unless we'd traded in the car for a horse and cart and our clothes for the traditional Romanian garb. I don't think the locals would have looked on that more kindly than if we were just well behaved. Probably would have thought we were nuts, actually, as would have I.

LOL mimi... I'm not quite that bored.

I just hope I have better success respecting other cultures when I travel than James T. Kirk did following the prime directive.

First of all, americans should not set their european travel budget according to what they think the norm would be for a &quot;local&quot; in a similar age bracket. if you accept that they should, might i suggest the following:

We from europe should never take out travel insurance with medical cover whilst travelling in the US. Many americans do not have any medical insurance and we should have the same risk that an illness or accident could make us bankrupt. that's &quot;solidarity&quot; as described in the referenced post.

I think many of the american europhiles make far too much out of the &quot;ugly american&quot; syndrome. their radar for this is far too sensitive. they will give the non-american the benefit of the doubt over many things but a fellow american will get slammed. Europe is full of cultures that are very different from each other and many things that are acceptable in one place are rude in another. I suggest that the american europhile is much more bothered by &quot;typical&quot; american behaviour (whatever that is) than europeans are.

For example -

The person looking for a place to buy american style cream cheese in paris...most responses were to the effect that &quot;doesn't she know that you are not supposed to eat american cheese in france?&quot; would an italian looking for a similar delight from home get that same response? probably not.

and the american veteran asking about appropriate gifts to give during his trip to normandy. he was met with vile...assumptions that he was going to walk through the streets throwing around gifts whilst shouting &quot;we saved you&quot;.

Loud talking italians, greeks, etc are just &quot;charming&quot;...that's part of their lively character. but for americans, it is ugly and rude...according to many on this board.

conservative values amongst, for example, italian catholics or bavarians are just part of their fabric and characteristics that should be &quot;cherished&quot;. american christian conservatism on the other hand is seen as ignorant and repressed.

I can go on and on but i think you get the idea. in short, i think that the over-zealous attempt to route out any seeds of ugly americanism belies a true understanding of the world and makes the militant europhiles appear like giddy, euro-smitten american university students who have just returned from a semester in europe...they have seen and experienced just enough to be dangerous but hardly have a true understanding of europe or the rest of the world.

walkingaround, your wise words are like sweet, sweet music to my ears.

Well you can choose either Lactobacillus Bulgaricus, Streptococus Thermophilus or Lactobacillus Acidophilus

I feel that no matter where you go, a person should show repect for the culture they are visiting. I do not mean dress like them or act like them. Just not flaunt anything or act in a way that would make them feel you are looking down on them or that your are better than they are. Be yourself, but respect others views.

A couple of years ago, there was a heat wave in Italy. There were people from the USA that were very mad because they were not let into churches with shorts and t-tops on. People need to have respect.

I think that some tourists lack of respect gives the USA a bad name. I've seen many people complain about everthing not being done the same as we do. If they wanted everything the same as home, they could have stayed home.

I lived in the Washington DC area for over 30 years, and quite frankly, I was always surprised to note that generally,international tourists and visitors were nearly indestinguishable from visitors and tourists from other parts of the US (or even &quot;local tourists&quot;).

People on vacation are &quot;on vacation.&quot; The major &quot;sights&quot; of Europe, for example, have been tourist sites for hundreds and hundreds of years.

How much of a tourist's own &quot;culture&quot; he/she takes on vacation may have more to do with how much time they have to acclimate to &quot;being on vacation.&quot; If you feel you need to stuff all the must-sees into a week or two, you've probably left little or no time to assimilate even the slightest bit into the culture you are visiting.

So then, the if the object of your trip is to &quot;See all the Must Sees&quot; you are probably less likely to mirror the culture you are visiting. If the object of your trip is to learn about the culture of a place, you are probably more likely to gradually assimilate over the course of your time there.

Clifton, the &quot;tall poppy&quot; attitude (I've never heard it called that before) is prevalent in England as well.

It seems to me to be grounded in a basic world view: there is only one pie, and if someone else has a bigger piece, you will be left with a smaller piece. Perhaps in the US, because of our size and our history, we are more likely to see the world as limitless. If that guy has a bigger piece of the pie, then I can as well.

It also reminds me, tangentially, of the Japanese saying, &quot;The nail that sticks up gets hammered down.&quot;

When we travel, we are always respectful of local culture, whether it is Paris or Phnom Penh. But it would never occur to me not to buy something because a local person of my age and income wouldn't buy it. That sort of thinking would make any travel in the Third World extremely difficult, wouldn't it? (Not to mention hurting their economy.)

In fact, anyone who has traveled in the Third World must deal every day with the enormous discrepancies between our (extremely fortunate) standard of living and that of the people one encounters. We are unthinkably wealthy compared to so many in the world -- it always astounds me that people nevertheless show such friendliness and lack of resentment toward us. I do try to leave a reasonable amount of my money with them. :-D

Dear Marilyn, very good comments as usual. So many countries of the world need tourist to spend money when the visit. There was a good article I read last week about tourist/travellers. The suggestion was when spending money in other countries for souveniers etc. to buy from the local artisans. You the visitor usually get top quality souveniers and in return you help the local economy of the country you are visiting. That is what I like to do.

You hear the term “tall poppy syndrome” in Australia a lot, but I have my doubts that it's much of a factor in most people's thinking. It tends to be trotted out every time some prominent individual suffers public disgrace and finds it convenient to blame the envy of the common herd for his or her predicament.

The last time I heard it used was by a millionaire talk radio host who'd been caught out taking undisclosed money from certain companies in return for favourable mentions that he disguised as independent comment.

Having said that, there's certainly some healthy scepticism about many of our &quot;betters&quot;. Most people realise that the most reliable way to acquire wealth is to choose one’s parents wisely, and the number of high-flying executives who end up in jail doesn't inspire public confidence. The punters are fairly forgiving of wealthy sportspeople and pop stars, though.

I'm having some trouble getting my arms around your topic, Cliff. Perhaps my difficulty stems from the impact of globalization, with lines between various cultures becoming increasingly vague. Darn! I hate when that happens!

For example, how would you define today's culture in Italy? I am reminded of a conversation I had on the train from Venice to Florence, with a personable young man who told me he was an attorney for a multinational corporation in Bologna. How would I attempt to define his &quot;culture?&quot; He lives in much the same world I do, in many ways.

He told me that he had lived a few years in the US when he was a boy and his father was an executive with a multinational corporation. He was very kind and diplomatic, but he explained what he saw as a big difference between our two cultures. In the US, his family lived in the suburbs, traveling by car between work and shool and home, in a very isolated way. In Italy, his extended family shared a much more communal life, spending lots of time together. I felt a sense of sadness, recognizing the truth of what he said. A nuclear, extended family seems to be very much a fact of life in Italy. It's generally nt a fact of life for most of us in the US.

Even here in the states, it's difficult to box up local culture in a neat little package. When I was young, I remember a friend coming to visit here from a town just 150 miles away. She dressed differently and her slang was different. Today that would not be the case, I think.

When I travel, I am generally an observer, not a participant. I'm not advocating that choice, it's just the way things have worked out due to time and language costraints. I try to detect the differences and try them on for size. But given the time available, that's about the best I'm going to do.

Really interesting points of view. Thanks everyone for sharing them. I guess I've just read so many things just like walkinaround mentioned that I started wondering if I weren't missing the big picture somewhere. I just don't see myself blending in with everyone, everywhere and really, I don't want to. I'd like to not tick people off, maybe learn something, but bring changes back home that make sense, not so much to impress.

Scarlett, interesting question you asked about lines. I might find it fun to jump in and jockey for line position in Germany. But unlike the opposite, I bet I'd not offend if I decided to quietly wait my turn. I should know better though, in my opinion, than to stand back and let people push in and then loudly winge about it. I guess that's my line in the sand. Get in there and be a part of it or shut up already! (just for my own compass)

Marilyn, I like the pie example. Makes a whole lot of sense! And sounds pretty good right now too... mmm, key lime... big slice. I do have to admit that I feel like spending in a developing economy helps, particularly more so than charity really, in the long run. But that's just me. In stable economies, maybe it's not such a big deal. I tend to not buy that much in Europe though or spend much on rooms. I can't help wondering how that's helpful, but hey, if it's a more appreciated way of looking at things, then so be it. ;)

I'm having trouble with the topic too Mary Fran. Maybe because it involves predicting the opinions of strangers. Interesting what you said about the difference in family units. I can see that the ability to afford a home or apartment at a younger age could change that dynamic over type. Especially if the income was contingent on moving further from the family. Sort of a sign of those times myself, in that I don't live near the same city that my family does.

I am just finishing a book by Primo Levi, called The Drowned and the Saved.
I won't digress here by discussing Levi's background and his books, but apparently he conducted correspndences with some of his readers. One German writer took issue with some of Levi's remarks and somewhat castigated him, asking &quot;is it permissible to speak of 'Germans' as a single entity, or 'English' or 'Italians' or 'Jews'?

Levi agreed that it is wrong to speak about any group of people as a single entity. Yet, he adds that there must be a shared spirit of each people, a 'Germanness', a 'Spanishness', etc, that are the sums of shared traditions, customs, history, language,art. The existence of these national cultures are important pieces of the entire human population.

He doesn't think that you can draw from the national characteristics to predict or blame an individual's behavior, but at the same time, one can make predictions about the likelihood of collective behavior, forecasting that the group is more likely to value certain behaviors, or engage in certain behaviors, more often one way than in another.

I don't mean to hijack this thread ino a VERY serious dicussion, but this part of the book struck me because I've always been uncomfortable with national stereotypes and yet there are clear patterns in values and culture among national groups that it would be silly to deny. This is the first time I've felt it articulated.

travel in a foreign country: I may not like the home decor, the politics, not all the food, BUT I am a guest and will ALWAYS appreciate the hospitality to me, a stranger and different.
We will respect each other in spite of our differences.

One of the most unforgetable cultural experience I ever had came on a trip I made with my mother, sister, and two little boys to Frenchtown, Montana. The occasion was the all-class reunion of the Frenchtown, Montana, high school from which my mother graduated in 1920, which was celebrating its 100th birthday.

Frenchtown is in the mountains just outside Missoula. Saturday night, there was a banquet, and we followed single file along a table piled with food, slowly inching along. It was horribly disorganized, and I wanted to get busy, start a second line along the other side of the table, and get things clicking along. Spokane, where I live, is pretty laid back, but even so, I was impatient with the slow pace. However, it bothered none of the locals, I thought, &quot;Okay, so this is the way they do it here. Go with the flow.&quot;

The next morning, we went to Mass at the beautiful wood-frame Catholic mission church, where a country and western band played and sang The Magnificat! It was simply stunning and something I know I'd never have experienced anyplace other than this beautiful mountain church in western Montana.

The next morning, after 11:00 Mass, we adjourned from the church to find a beer truck waiting to whet our thirsty Sunday morning whistles on the way to the community picnic.

By the way, in Frenchtown, there's no such thing as underdressing and no one worries what they're wearing in Paris this season.

We all seem determined to be deferential and respectful in our trips to Europe, and we talk here of even going so far as to possibly temporarily adopt the mantle of the cultures we observe.

What advice might we offer our friends from abroad as to the proper attitudes to bring to the US on their visits.

I have in mind a group of tourists from Japan I saw disembark from a tour bus in San Francisco at the park near the famous Painted Ladies houses so often photographed by tourists. Next stop: The Castro. If our Japanese friends want to be respectful and merge into the local culture scene, what suggestions do I make?

I might imagine further, that the same group of tourists has inexplicably found themselves in my town, Spokane. They'll need some tips about how to avoid marking themselves as foreigners here. I suggest renting a car with tinted windows and and a mega stereo system and navigating slowly through quiet residential neighborhoods with hip hop tunes vibrating loud enough to rattle every window for miles around.

One cultural tendency will work no matter where they travel in the states. My visiting friends will be advised that it is customary in the US to extend their credit cards to the max, with no fear of the piper eventually demanding to be paid. They may also be well advised to take advantage of the opportunity to buy a house full of furniture, with NO PAYMENTS DUE UNTIL 2009!

What do you wish those pesky tourists knew before they inflict their boorish selves on your little US village?

Germans misbehaving in lines? That ruins all my carefully nurtured cultural stereotypes. Next you'll be telling me the Swiss are jaywalking.

I can't imagine that the problem is on a Chinese scale, though. On my first visit there I was prepared for a degree of culture shock, but it takes a real effort of will to stand in an airport check-in line, allow yourself to be distracted, then find that two entire extended families have managed to insert themselves into the few centimetres of space between you and the guy in front, without descending into a homicidal rage. But then, you tell yourself, nobody else seems to think this is at all unusual or objectionable, so you'd better take a deep breath and think about something else. I did see one Western tourist giving a Chinese couple a piece of her mind for the same thing, though. They were astonished.

There's an interesting article in the latest &quot;New Scientist&quot; on cultural stereotypes. It seems that we tend to subscribe even to some negative stereotypes about our own cultures, never mind others, despite evidence all around us to the contrary. For example, Americans questioned may agree that &quot;Americans are pushy&quot;. However, mostly they don't see this trait at all in particular individuals they know - friends, neighbours, colleagues, the postman. Apparently we tend to rationalise this by believing that the people we know don't fit the national profile. I was reminded of an elderly relative who used to worry about Asian immigration, then go shopping with her Filipina neighbour. She was firmly convinced that this lady &quot;was different&quot;.

interesting point, Mary Fran...about what americans would tell foreign visitors about how to behave, dress, etc to fit in. however, much of the comedy of this board is not about lecturing on your own culture but about some americans lecturing other americans about how to behave, dress, etc in europe. the result is often painful to watch.

imagine the comedy value of listening in on a chinese person who has been to america several times trying to lecture to a chinese person who has never been there how he should act and dress. he would certainly get a lot wrong and it would be quite funny to hear....&quot;you can't wear sandals in america...everyone wears high-top basketball shoes&quot;

beyond the comedic value, it is also kind of sad...we have all seen some people who have come from asia to the west and become so smitten by what they see as a superior culture they become ashamed of their fellow countrymen who they see as &quot;just off the boat&quot;. we see a lot this on the board also.

Well said, walkinaround.

Off topic, perhaps, but explaining my elation about travel: I have a confession to make: I feel a sense of ownership that extends over the whole world. When I travel, I find bits and pieces of myself every place I go, clues to who I am, where I came from, and maybe where I'm going.
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I go to Spain, and there I am! My history is in the Catholic church and the conquistadors and the Jesuits.

I travel to France, and there I am, in Lafayette and in the bodies that lay buried at Normandy.

I go to England, and I find myself there too, in so much of the history of the democracy that governs me, and in the literature and the values.

And Rome? Fprget about it! Rome? I walk down a street in Rome and see a manhole cover that gives me chills&quot; &quot;SPQR,&quot; &quot;The Senate and the People of Rome!&quot; These are my people, I think. That is the foundation of so much in my society today.

Germany? Culturally, I think, Americans are so much like Germans in temperment.

I travel Europe and feel a sense of recognition and some growing understanding of who I am.

If I am lucky, the locals will tolerate my intrustions. I don't demand that they like me. I don't need to intrude on their lives or become best friends. I just want to move quietly and, hopefully, unnoticed on this marvelous journey to the past and hope I don't trip over the furniture.

&quot;We all seem determined to be deferential and respectful in our trips to Europe, and we talk here of even going so far as to possibly temporarily adopt the mantle of the cultures we observe.&quot;

This is classic American self-hatred. Apparently even Americans buy into anti-americanism. There is much of it on these boards. Everyone goes to Europe and kisses the feet of snotty French waiter and arrogant hotel clerks. The number of people, almost invariablty women, who write panic posts about whather their clothes are going to &quot;appropriate&quot; is laughable.

I go to Europe, I act the same as at home, wear the same clothes as at home, and tolerate the same behavior I tolerate at home. I, like every other tourist, am paying hard earned money to hotels, shops and restaurants. They are there to make me happy, not the other way around. It's no different that shopping at walmart. I travel for fun, not some deep meaningful experience. I'm there to see new turf, which is fun. I am not there to kiss anyone's feet or to bow down to European culture, much of which is really, really, boring and pretentious. Yeah, it's fun to to see SPQR on a manhole cover. But that doesn't mean that I have act like some rube who just sees a big city for the first time.

People like the sheep who have posted on this thread worry way to much. Just go, enjoy and if the Europeans don't like you or what you do or what you wear, that's there problem, not yours. Personally, I doubt that they could care less. They are probably too busy having riots at football matches, going to pretentious art movies and smoking themselves into an early grave. To each his own.

Could you just let us know when you will be going, so that the many of us who might dislike your comments, as you knew we would when you expressed them, can avoid you while we are over there? It's not just the holding of such opinions, it's the transparent desire to poke us with a stick that I find troubling. There are many kinds of rubes, apparently.

It appears there is a great divide in our culture between people who think asking what to wear is normal and those who see it as a symptom of insecurity or something. Most of the women I know have always been curious about what others would wear to any event they were attending. If you know someone else who is going to the meeting/party/conference/dinner, you would think nothing of asking what they were going to wear. People who think this is normal, and I am certainly one of them, are perplexed at the reactions they receive here from people who think this is stupid. It has nothing to do with self-hating.

I have not read a single post here about kissing the feet of snotty French waiters or hotel clerks. I have only read complaints about such people on the rare occasions that they have been encountered.

Everyone has the right to travel for the reasons they want. It is fine to travel for fun, and not for some deep, meaningful experience. It is less fine to look down on those who travel for the deep, meaningful experience.

This thread actually began as a response to a thread or two on which Europeans, not Americans, commented on American behavior abroad. Those of us who find it interesting to ponder our own behavior and how it relates to our own cultures and to the cultures we encounter in our travels are engaging in thoughtful discussion.

For us, this is fun. It is not worrying, it is not self-hating, and it is not anti-American. Thoughtful discussion is what I personally value most in any culture.

IMHornet said it well. Many Americans who idolize all things European generally view their fellow citizens with disdain. It is quite amusing to see all the posts about what is appropriate to wear or say or do in the obviously superior cultures of Europe. Much self loathing going on. I'm as midwest American as they come, and I travel all over the place. I act in a way that I would expect others to act towards me. This works. Fretting about what is the proper shoe to wear in Paris only shows that you really have no clue and are insecure. My experience over the last 10 years of travel to Europe and other places is that Americans seem to be the best behaved, most open and friendly of any group I run into. Ask the locals about this and they will tell you the same.
Now, if anybody needs lessons in behavior while traveling, seems to me it's the Germans. I was appalled by the rudeness of the Germans I ran onto on my recent trip to Iceland.