walkingaround, your wise words are like sweet, sweet music to my ears.

Well you can choose either Lactobacillus Bulgaricus, Streptococus Thermophilus or Lactobacillus Acidophilus

I feel that no matter where you go, a person should show repect for the culture they are visiting. I do not mean dress like them or act like them. Just not flaunt anything or act in a way that would make them feel you are looking down on them or that your are better than they are. Be yourself, but respect others views.

A couple of years ago, there was a heat wave in Italy. There were people from the USA that were very mad because they were not let into churches with shorts and t-tops on. People need to have respect.

I think that some tourists lack of respect gives the USA a bad name. I've seen many people complain about everthing not being done the same as we do. If they wanted everything the same as home, they could have stayed home.

I lived in the Washington DC area for over 30 years, and quite frankly, I was always surprised to note that generally,international tourists and visitors were nearly indestinguishable from visitors and tourists from other parts of the US (or even "local tourists").

People on vacation are "on vacation." The major "sights" of Europe, for example, have been tourist sites for hundreds and hundreds of years.

How much of a tourist's own "culture" he/she takes on vacation may have more to do with how much time they have to acclimate to "being on vacation." If you feel you need to stuff all the must-sees into a week or two, you've probably left little or no time to assimilate even the slightest bit into the culture you are visiting.

So then, the if the object of your trip is to "See all the Must Sees" you are probably less likely to mirror the culture you are visiting. If the object of your trip is to learn about the culture of a place, you are probably more likely to gradually assimilate over the course of your time there.

Clifton, the "tall poppy" attitude (I've never heard it called that before) is prevalent in England as well.

It seems to me to be grounded in a basic world view: there is only one pie, and if someone else has a bigger piece, you will be left with a smaller piece. Perhaps in the US, because of our size and our history, we are more likely to see the world as limitless. If that guy has a bigger piece of the pie, then I can as well.

It also reminds me, tangentially, of the Japanese saying, "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down."

When we travel, we are always respectful of local culture, whether it is Paris or Phnom Penh. But it would never occur to me not to buy something because a local person of my age and income wouldn't buy it. That sort of thinking would make any travel in the Third World extremely difficult, wouldn't it? (Not to mention hurting their economy.)

In fact, anyone who has traveled in the Third World must deal every day with the enormous discrepancies between our (extremely fortunate) standard of living and that of the people one encounters. We are unthinkably wealthy compared to so many in the world -- it always astounds me that people nevertheless show such friendliness and lack of resentment toward us. I do try to leave a reasonable amount of my money with them. :-D

Dear Marilyn, very good comments as usual. So many countries of the world need tourist to spend money when the visit. There was a good article I read last week about tourist/travellers. The suggestion was when spending money in other countries for souveniers etc. to buy from the local artisans. You the visitor usually get top quality souveniers and in return you help the local economy of the country you are visiting. That is what I like to do.

You hear the term “tall poppy syndrome” in Australia a lot, but I have my doubts that it's much of a factor in most people's thinking. It tends to be trotted out every time some prominent individual suffers public disgrace and finds it convenient to blame the envy of the common herd for his or her predicament.

The last time I heard it used was by a millionaire talk radio host who'd been caught out taking undisclosed money from certain companies in return for favourable mentions that he disguised as independent comment.

Having said that, there's certainly some healthy scepticism about many of our "betters". Most people realise that the most reliable way to acquire wealth is to choose one’s parents wisely, and the number of high-flying executives who end up in jail doesn't inspire public confidence. The punters are fairly forgiving of wealthy sportspeople and pop stars, though.

I'm having some trouble getting my arms around your topic, Cliff. Perhaps my difficulty stems from the impact of globalization, with lines between various cultures becoming increasingly vague. Darn! I hate when that happens!

For example, how would you define today's culture in Italy? I am reminded of a conversation I had on the train from Venice to Florence, with a personable young man who told me he was an attorney for a multinational corporation in Bologna. How would I attempt to define his "culture?" He lives in much the same world I do, in many ways.

He told me that he had lived a few years in the US when he was a boy and his father was an executive with a multinational corporation. He was very kind and diplomatic, but he explained what he saw as a big difference between our two cultures. In the US, his family lived in the suburbs, traveling by car between work and shool and home, in a very isolated way. In Italy, his extended family shared a much more communal life, spending lots of time together. I felt a sense of sadness, recognizing the truth of what he said. A nuclear, extended family seems to be very much a fact of life in Italy. It's generally nt a fact of life for most of us in the US.

Even here in the states, it's difficult to box up local culture in a neat little package. When I was young, I remember a friend coming to visit here from a town just 150 miles away. She dressed differently and her slang was different. Today that would not be the case, I think.

When I travel, I am generally an observer, not a participant. I'm not advocating that choice, it's just the way things have worked out due to time and language costraints. I try to detect the differences and try them on for size. But given the time available, that's about the best I'm going to do.

Really interesting points of view. Thanks everyone for sharing them. I guess I've just read so many things just like walkinaround mentioned that I started wondering if I weren't missing the big picture somewhere. I just don't see myself blending in with everyone, everywhere and really, I don't want to. I'd like to not tick people off, maybe learn something, but bring changes back home that make sense, not so much to impress.

Scarlett, interesting question you asked about lines. I might find it fun to jump in and jockey for line position in Germany. But unlike the opposite, I bet I'd not offend if I decided to quietly wait my turn. I should know better though, in my opinion, than to stand back and let people push in and then loudly winge about it. I guess that's my line in the sand. Get in there and be a part of it or shut up already! (just for my own compass)

Marilyn, I like the pie example. Makes a whole lot of sense! And sounds pretty good right now too... mmm, key lime... big slice. I do have to admit that I feel like spending in a developing economy helps, particularly more so than charity really, in the long run. But that's just me. In stable economies, maybe it's not such a big deal. I tend to not buy that much in Europe though or spend much on rooms. I can't help wondering how that's helpful, but hey, if it's a more appreciated way of looking at things, then so be it. ;)

I'm having trouble with the topic too Mary Fran. Maybe because it involves predicting the opinions of strangers. Interesting what you said about the difference in family units. I can see that the ability to afford a home or apartment at a younger age could change that dynamic over type. Especially if the income was contingent on moving further from the family. Sort of a sign of those times myself, in that I don't live near the same city that my family does.

I am just finishing a book by Primo Levi, called The Drowned and the Saved.
I won't digress here by discussing Levi's background and his books, but apparently he conducted correspndences with some of his readers. One German writer took issue with some of Levi's remarks and somewhat castigated him, asking "is it permissible to speak of 'Germans' as a single entity, or 'English' or 'Italians' or 'Jews'?

Levi agreed that it is wrong to speak about any group of people as a single entity. Yet, he adds that there must be a shared spirit of each people, a 'Germanness', a 'Spanishness', etc, that are the sums of shared traditions, customs, history, language,art. The existence of these national cultures are important pieces of the entire human population.

He doesn't think that you can draw from the national characteristics to predict or blame an individual's behavior, but at the same time, one can make predictions about the likelihood of collective behavior, forecasting that the group is more likely to value certain behaviors, or engage in certain behaviors, more often one way than in another.

I don't mean to hijack this thread ino a VERY serious dicussion, but this part of the book struck me because I've always been uncomfortable with national stereotypes and yet there are clear patterns in values and culture among national groups that it would be silly to deny. This is the first time I've felt it articulated.

travel in a foreign country: I may not like the home decor, the politics, not all the food, BUT I am a guest and will ALWAYS appreciate the hospitality to me, a stranger and different.
We will respect each other in spite of our differences.

One of the most unforgetable cultural experience I ever had came on a trip I made with my mother, sister, and two little boys to Frenchtown, Montana. The occasion was the all-class reunion of the Frenchtown, Montana, high school from which my mother graduated in 1920, which was celebrating its 100th birthday.

Frenchtown is in the mountains just outside Missoula. Saturday night, there was a banquet, and we followed single file along a table piled with food, slowly inching along. It was horribly disorganized, and I wanted to get busy, start a second line along the other side of the table, and get things clicking along. Spokane, where I live, is pretty laid back, but even so, I was impatient with the slow pace. However, it bothered none of the locals, I thought, "Okay, so this is the way they do it here. Go with the flow."

The next morning, we went to Mass at the beautiful wood-frame Catholic mission church, where a country and western band played and sang The Magnificat! It was simply stunning and something I know I'd never have experienced anyplace other than this beautiful mountain church in western Montana.

The next morning, after 11:00 Mass, we adjourned from the church to find a beer truck waiting to whet our thirsty Sunday morning whistles on the way to the community picnic.

By the way, in Frenchtown, there's no such thing as underdressing and no one worries what they're wearing in Paris this season.

We all seem determined to be deferential and respectful in our trips to Europe, and we talk here of even going so far as to possibly temporarily adopt the mantle of the cultures we observe.

What advice might we offer our friends from abroad as to the proper attitudes to bring to the US on their visits.

I have in mind a group of tourists from Japan I saw disembark from a tour bus in San Francisco at the park near the famous Painted Ladies houses so often photographed by tourists. Next stop: The Castro. If our Japanese friends want to be respectful and merge into the local culture scene, what suggestions do I make?

I might imagine further, that the same group of tourists has inexplicably found themselves in my town, Spokane. They'll need some tips about how to avoid marking themselves as foreigners here. I suggest renting a car with tinted windows and and a mega stereo system and navigating slowly through quiet residential neighborhoods with hip hop tunes vibrating loud enough to rattle every window for miles around.

One cultural tendency will work no matter where they travel in the states. My visiting friends will be advised that it is customary in the US to extend their credit cards to the max, with no fear of the piper eventually demanding to be paid. They may also be well advised to take advantage of the opportunity to buy a house full of furniture, with NO PAYMENTS DUE UNTIL 2009!

What do you wish those pesky tourists knew before they inflict their boorish selves on your little US village?

Germans misbehaving in lines? That ruins all my carefully nurtured cultural stereotypes. Next you'll be telling me the Swiss are jaywalking.

I can't imagine that the problem is on a Chinese scale, though. On my first visit there I was prepared for a degree of culture shock, but it takes a real effort of will to stand in an airport check-in line, allow yourself to be distracted, then find that two entire extended families have managed to insert themselves into the few centimetres of space between you and the guy in front, without descending into a homicidal rage. But then, you tell yourself, nobody else seems to think this is at all unusual or objectionable, so you'd better take a deep breath and think about something else. I did see one Western tourist giving a Chinese couple a piece of her mind for the same thing, though. They were astonished.

There's an interesting article in the latest "New Scientist" on cultural stereotypes. It seems that we tend to subscribe even to some negative stereotypes about our own cultures, never mind others, despite evidence all around us to the contrary. For example, Americans questioned may agree that "Americans are pushy". However, mostly they don't see this trait at all in particular individuals they know - friends, neighbours, colleagues, the postman. Apparently we tend to rationalise this by believing that the people we know don't fit the national profile. I was reminded of an elderly relative who used to worry about Asian immigration, then go shopping with her Filipina neighbour. She was firmly convinced that this lady "was different".

interesting point, Mary Fran...about what americans would tell foreign visitors about how to behave, dress, etc to fit in. however, much of the comedy of this board is not about lecturing on your own culture but about some americans lecturing other americans about how to behave, dress, etc in europe. the result is often painful to watch.

imagine the comedy value of listening in on a chinese person who has been to america several times trying to lecture to a chinese person who has never been there how he should act and dress. he would certainly get a lot wrong and it would be quite funny to hear...."you can't wear sandals in america...everyone wears high-top basketball shoes"

beyond the comedic value, it is also kind of sad...we have all seen some people who have come from asia to the west and become so smitten by what they see as a superior culture they become ashamed of their fellow countrymen who they see as "just off the boat". we see a lot this on the board also.

Well said, walkinaround.

Off topic, perhaps, but explaining my elation about travel: I have a confession to make: I feel a sense of ownership that extends over the whole world. When I travel, I find bits and pieces of myself every place I go, clues to who I am, where I came from, and maybe where I'm going.
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I go to Spain, and there I am! My history is in the Catholic church and the conquistadors and the Jesuits.

I travel to France, and there I am, in Lafayette and in the bodies that lay buried at Normandy.

I go to England, and I find myself there too, in so much of the history of the democracy that governs me, and in the literature and the values.

And Rome? Fprget about it! Rome? I walk down a street in Rome and see a manhole cover that gives me chills" "SPQR," "The Senate and the People of Rome!" These are my people, I think. That is the foundation of so much in my society today.

Germany? Culturally, I think, Americans are so much like Germans in temperment.

I travel Europe and feel a sense of recognition and some growing understanding of who I am.

If I am lucky, the locals will tolerate my intrustions. I don't demand that they like me. I don't need to intrude on their lives or become best friends. I just want to move quietly and, hopefully, unnoticed on this marvelous journey to the past and hope I don't trip over the furniture.

"We all seem determined to be deferential and respectful in our trips to Europe, and we talk here of even going so far as to possibly temporarily adopt the mantle of the cultures we observe."

This is classic American self-hatred. Apparently even Americans buy into anti-americanism. There is much of it on these boards. Everyone goes to Europe and kisses the feet of snotty French waiter and arrogant hotel clerks. The number of people, almost invariablty women, who write panic posts about whather their clothes are going to "appropriate" is laughable.

I go to Europe, I act the same as at home, wear the same clothes as at home, and tolerate the same behavior I tolerate at home. I, like every other tourist, am paying hard earned money to hotels, shops and restaurants. They are there to make me happy, not the other way around. It's no different that shopping at walmart. I travel for fun, not some deep meaningful experience. I'm there to see new turf, which is fun. I am not there to kiss anyone's feet or to bow down to European culture, much of which is really, really, boring and pretentious. Yeah, it's fun to to see SPQR on a manhole cover. But that doesn't mean that I have act like some rube who just sees a big city for the first time.

People like the sheep who have posted on this thread worry way to much. Just go, enjoy and if the Europeans don't like you or what you do or what you wear, that's there problem, not yours. Personally, I doubt that they could care less. They are probably too busy having riots at football matches, going to pretentious art movies and smoking themselves into an early grave. To each his own.

Could you just let us know when you will be going, so that the many of us who might dislike your comments, as you knew we would when you expressed them, can avoid you while we are over there? It's not just the holding of such opinions, it's the transparent desire to poke us with a stick that I find troubling. There are many kinds of rubes, apparently.

It appears there is a great divide in our culture between people who think asking what to wear is normal and those who see it as a symptom of insecurity or something. Most of the women I know have always been curious about what others would wear to any event they were attending. If you know someone else who is going to the meeting/party/conference/dinner, you would think nothing of asking what they were going to wear. People who think this is normal, and I am certainly one of them, are perplexed at the reactions they receive here from people who think this is stupid. It has nothing to do with self-hating.

I have not read a single post here about kissing the feet of snotty French waiters or hotel clerks. I have only read complaints about such people on the rare occasions that they have been encountered.

Everyone has the right to travel for the reasons they want. It is fine to travel for fun, and not for some deep, meaningful experience. It is less fine to look down on those who travel for the deep, meaningful experience.

This thread actually began as a response to a thread or two on which Europeans, not Americans, commented on American behavior abroad. Those of us who find it interesting to ponder our own behavior and how it relates to our own cultures and to the cultures we encounter in our travels are engaging in thoughtful discussion.

For us, this is fun. It is not worrying, it is not self-hating, and it is not anti-American. Thoughtful discussion is what I personally value most in any culture.

IMHornet said it well. Many Americans who idolize all things European generally view their fellow citizens with disdain. It is quite amusing to see all the posts about what is appropriate to wear or say or do in the obviously superior cultures of Europe. Much self loathing going on. I'm as midwest American as they come, and I travel all over the place. I act in a way that I would expect others to act towards me. This works. Fretting about what is the proper shoe to wear in Paris only shows that you really have no clue and are insecure. My experience over the last 10 years of travel to Europe and other places is that Americans seem to be the best behaved, most open and friendly of any group I run into. Ask the locals about this and they will tell you the same.
Now, if anybody needs lessons in behavior while traveling, seems to me it's the Germans. I was appalled by the rudeness of the Germans I ran onto on my recent trip to Iceland.