It is truly a dilemma, somewhat akin to whether or not animals should be kept in zoos, should whales and dolphins perform at water parks?, etc. I must admit I see logic on both sides of each issue. From a selfish standpoint, it is wonderful to be able to visit museums and see Precolombian and Roman artifacts (both of particular interest to me) that I otherwise might never see were they all in their country of origin.

Years ago when we visited the Acropolis and saw the Parthenon (a jaw dropping experience for me) I was not aware that the marbles weren't in Greece. Only later on our first visit to the British Museum did I learn this.

I'm still pretty much on the fence about the other things I mentioned, but I do feel it would have been a wonderful gesture to return the marbles to Athens in conjunction with the Olympics, so that they could now be safely housed in the new museum at the foot of the Acropolis.

It is truly a dilemma, somewhat akin to whether or not animals should be kept in zoos, should whales and dolphins perform at water parks?, etc. I must admit I see logic on both sides of each issue. From a selfish standpoint, it is wonderful to be able to visit museums and see Precolombian and Roman artifacts (both of particular interest to me) that I otherwise might never see were they all in their country of origin.

Years ago when we visited the Acropolis and saw the Parthenon (a jaw dropping experience for me) I was not aware that the marbles weren't in Greece. Only later on our first visit to the British Museum did I learn this.

I'm still pretty much on the fence about the other things I mentioned, but I do feel it would have been a wonderful gesture to return the marbles to Athens in conjunction with the Olympics, so that they could now be safely housed in the new museum at the foot of the Acropolis.

Agreed. I also agree these things are interesting to see, so I'm not really sure its being selfish since we all slow down as we pass an auto accident to observe the mangled bodies. Its human nature. And 111op? Get out of the grandstands and get in the game.
You only live once and it won't hurt, ya know what I mean?

I've tried posting but the site seems to be down....

Anyway, Mark, right now I'm much more interested and concerned about finding a cheap budget hotel in Paris. If I've the time I'll come back and pick a fight. Don't you worry. :-)

The Partheonon Marbles belong in Greece. Period; end of discussion. Shame on the British Museum! But if they had to return all the stuff that Brits plundered thru the ages, there wouldn't be anything in it!

Ok 111op-you're on.
Try Relais Bosquet in the 7th.
If you need even lesser cost, try Hotel Leveque, also n the 7th.

Hi Mark, thanks -- I think that I've to try to stay in the right bank. Wasn't expecting it to be this difficult but apparently there're some trade shows in Paris when I'll be there (Sept. 4 and 5). Have tried four or five hotels and all are booked.

I'll try to call some more tomorrow.

While we are returning national treasures, can India have back the Kohinoor diamond and several other gems from the crown jewels, the peacock throne in the Tower of London and the Tipu Sultan collection from Windsor Castle please? I assure you that the Indian people would love to have them back.
Having just said that, I know I'm just talk, nothing written here is going to make an iota of difference :-)

PS: I hope folks realize that while the above is true, its meant tongue in cheek. Sarcasm is so hard to convey sometimes...

Sachida-do the Indians have they such an emotional connection to the treasures in question that they have built a new museum with empty space to house the treasures, in the hopes that the monumuentally hypocritical English will do the right thing and return them? Why did England return the Stone of Destiny to Scotland? How is that different, given that the provenance of the Stone of Destiny is by no means definitive? Why don't you and the rest of the posters who want to give idiotic, facile, responses actually do a little informed THINKING about the issue in question, huh? Is that too much to ask???

Well Spy, did you actually take a look at the Guardian link that mpoll provided? I'm not saying that that's gospel. You need to understand that the dispute has been going on for ages and the arguments from both sides have been put forth over and over. Even if we've not thought through the issues, someone else has.

In other words, what I'm trying to say is that even if we're all idiots, that doesn't make you a genius.

EVERYONE - SHUT UP.

Spygirl,
I was trying to lighten the mood of the discussion but failing that, let me at least give you some perspective. Yes the Indians do have empty spaces in museums with just write ups about these treasures and more. They read about it in history lessons all the way from junior school onwards and fantasize about seeing them. Some private parties have managed to BUY back some of these pieces and donated them to museums. The British looted India continuously for more than a 100 years and yes all that loot is precious to India. You seem to think that only the loudest voice is deserving. Maybe YOU should do some informed thinking here.

Maybe you didn't notice the smiley in my post, but that tirade was most unwarranted. I'm not getting into this any further because like I mentioned before, nothing we post here makes any difference. Lighten up!!

My apologies to the rest of the posters/readers, that was way off topic. I agree with i_am_kane, I will shut up now :-)

If Elgin hadn't taken the marbles back to Britain their be no marbles left to argue over, They'd be Athenian road base or house foundations.

Those are your words, 111-not mine-if you want to engage in the facile response, then by all means do so-that is the common denominator here.


As far as the Guardian article, if you want to consider that obfuscating piece the definitive word on the subject (despite what you say to the contrary) then go right ahead. It is an attempt to debunk the "myths" (acc. to the English Guardian newspaper) about the Marbles. But the article is really just another variation on the letter Mark referred to positioned above the Marbles in the Brit. Museum-it is an attempt to legitimize the illigitimate position of the English. Nothing more, nothing less. In other words, an English newspaper attempting to rather disingenuously defend a wrong position through the use of "facts" is simply not credible to me.

You go Spygirl!
I'm surprised there weren't more responses on the mummy issue I raised.
Mummies and Morals-there's a topic
Mark

I'm very glad you posted this thread, Mark -the English need to be beaten about the head with the issue of the return of the Marbles to Greece-particularly when Greece has so poignantly requested them to do so-for the umpteenth time- but this time the request was made in the spirit of the Olympics.

You may not know this, or care, but a few years back, when President Clinton was in England, he actually took up the issue of the Marbles with his friend Tony Blair-calling upon him to have England return the Marbles to Greece-one guess as to how Tony Blair reacted!

But you know what? People from around the world read the posts here, so you never know who might be reading who could be in a position to do the right thing and effectuate a change in the English position! (smile) Never underestimate the power of the written word-certainly stranger things have happened!

Well, Spy, you wrote:

"Why don't you and the rest of the posters who want to give idiotic, facile, responses actually do a little informed THINKING about the issue in question, huh? Is that too much to ask???"

No, excuse me, that doesn't make us idiots. It's just that we give idiotic responses. I just should have been more careful in drawing my conclusions and not put words in your mouth.

Honestly, I don't care as to whether the marbles are returned to Greece, as long as I can see them. But I should say this. Your arguments would probably seem more "legitimate" if you know how to spell that word correctly. Since you've misspelled this a couple of times, I take it that you actually don't know how to spell this word. At least the Guardian spells more accurately (presumably). Of course it doesn't make their arguments any more valid than yours. But your starting point is that any argument against returning the marbles is not valid and obfuscates the issue, then what's there to argue? You've made up your mind already anyway.

Ok, I've to go get dinner. :-)

And thanks, 111-for the spellcheck-did I spell obfuscate and disingenuous correct like? (smile)