Where Do the Elgin Marbles Really Belong?
 

Went to British Museun in London last week. Fabulous. A Must see. Its pride and joy? The Greek marbles from the Parthenon. Now that the Olympics are here, where do they truly belong? They were taken by Lord Elgin, ambassador to Turkey when Turkey ruled Greece and subsequently sold to the British Museum. The Brits say their purchase/possession would hold up in any European court. They also say they'll preserve them better and offer them on a better stage for all the world to see. Where do they belong?
GREECE! Any thoughts?

See the follwing article that dispels many Elgin Marble's myths

http://education.guardian.co.uk/high...265267,00.html

The Guardian article is of course right that this was an Athenian monument, not a Greek one. But the article makes one important error of fact.

The Parthenon wasn't funded by Athens. It was paid for by the tax imposed by Athens on its Ionian colonies to pay for common defence against the Persians.

By the time of Pericles, the Persians weren't a threat, but the cash kept on accumulating. So it was spent - without an iota of consultation with the exploited Ionians who were picking up the tab - on the Parthenon.

So there is indeed a case the Marbles should be returned to the people who paid for them.

The oppressed people of Ionia.

Or, as we'd call it today, Turkey.

One thing that must be remembered in all the arguments is that the marbles were removed from Greece for their own preservation. They certainly would not have survived in the same condition that they are currently found in had they not been removed.
There is always an argument for the repatriation of important items. The British Museum also holds the Rosetta Stone which surely belongs back in Egypt? But then there are other items all over the world that do not belong in the places that they are housed. Should the Mona Lisa go back to Italy?The Met in NYC bought many items from Howard Carter that he'd plundered from Tutenkhamun's Tomb.
But that's the world and museums, isn't it?

Lets not forget that they are NOT Elgin Marbles but ACROPOLIS marbles!!!

Well, Mark, please don't EVER go to Venice unless you want to see a LOT of things that the Venetians outright plundered from many other places..they make Lord Elgin look like some sort of petty criminal.

When I took my 10-year-old son to the British Museum, he commented on how little of the stuff therein was actually British, and decided that the full name of the place should be "British Museum of Colonial Loot."

That said, I am personally grateful that I do not have to travel to all those places to see examples of their antiquities.

Anonymous - I love your kid - only 10 and already wise in the realties of the world. Has he also been to the French, German and American museums of colonial loot?

It's obvious. They should be in Elgin.

Sheila -- spoken like a true Scot!

If you think Lord Elgin had sticky fingers, wait until you see the Pergamon Museum in Berlin.

Anonymous:

Did your son not notice how much of the BM was dumped here by a thousand years' worth of people colonially oppressing <b>us</b>?

Flanneruk-you're dodging the issue-not surprisingly-and the issue is, (leaving aside the BS &quot;legal&quot; arguments that Elgin lawfully bought one country's cutural treasures from an entity that did not have rightful possession in the first instance)-not to mention the fact that Elgin hacked the damn things out of the Parthenon with a saw!

-and oh, what a nice racist comment, AR-ONLY the BRITISH could have cared for them and preserved them for the world to see? Right? Gee, gosh, is that why the British Museum reluctantly had to admit that they had seriously damaged the Parthenon Marbles 60 years ago when they did such a careful job of &quot;preserving&quot; them while cleaning them???

The Parthenon Marbles should be returned to Greece because it is the morally RIGHT thing to do- the Marbles are part of this country's cultural and national identity-it is a highly charged and emotional issue for them-and don't give me this crap that it would open the floodgates of returns of the plunder and loot by the former colonialist nations (which maybe wouldn't be an altogether bad thing to this poster-however, I don't see Egypt demanding the return of its priceless cultural treasures from England's looting of its country, do you?)

The fact of the matter is, there are special instances (and this is CLEARLY ONE OF THEM!) where museums and nations make a decision to repatriate, as it were, CERTAIN treasures/artifacts to a nation, because of that nation's special cultural, emotional, and yes, nationalistic identity with the treasures or artifacts in question.

Hmmm, now, what sort of example can Spygirl use to illustrate her point to these former-empire English posters attitude concerning the Parthenon marbles? Hey, I know! What about the STONE OF DESTINY (or Stone of Scone, as it's also known by?) Didn't that sit for 700 years in Westminster? And didn't your Queen make a decision that it should go back to Scotland where it belongs? (although the identity of the Stone is much less clear than the Parthenon marbles, by ANY measure!) I mean, I'm SURE it was better cared for in Westminster than the Scots could care for it in Edinburgh, right? But the Queen made a decision to do that (of course, given that she owns land there and LIKES Scotland, not to mention the fact that it was the politically expedient thing to do as a concession to the Scottish nationalists) but she did it, didn't she? Yes, she did!

But this is different-this is the Marbles, and the nation in question is GREECE. The English don't care about doing the right thing here-they'd rather show the world what their pernicious racist attitudes towards the Greeks REALLY are all about-and refuse, beyond all rationality and morality- to return to Greece what should have been returned long ago.

Sheesh... what a foolish thread!

How about returning North America to my ancestors? The natural resources that have been plundered by the English, Scots, Irish, Germans, French, Polish, Russians, ...etc.. etc..

Unfortunately, Suzie-YOUR response is foolish and unknowledgeable-museums everywhere return artifacts of special significance to certain peoples and countries-if you don't know about the issue at hand, please try not to show your ignorance by posting!

Hey Spygirl-you know how to take a stand. I'm with you and I'm not even Greek, only a lousy New Yorker.
Frankly, the letter in the British Museum-which you have to crane your neck to read since its in a little area by the guard- states the British &quot;response&quot; which ticked me off, ie. the Greeks would leave them exposed to the elements, and they'd be on a platform for all the world, not just for the enhancement of Greek culture, their possession would hold up in any European court, etc. By their logic (purchase issue aside), having been in Paris and the Rodin museum two weeks ago, they may as well grab Rodin's &quot;The Thinker,&quot; as well since its outdoors in a garden subject to the elements and in a little French museum, not quite the world stage.
Mark

Excellent point, Mark-about the Rodin. But that &quot;preserving&quot; bit is all just morally bankrupt racist crap by the English-of course, there's been none o' that through the years. now has there? (smile)

Well, I suppose that people are aware that Greece has built a new museum at the foot of the Acropolis with special display cases for the marbles with the hope that the UK will return them to Greece?

There was an interesting article on the marbles in NYT not long ago on the role that Lady Elgin played in this whole controversy. You can't access the article for free anymore on the Times website, but you can read the article here. It was written by Susan Nagel:

http://p205.ezboard.com/fcyprianasco...cID=9419.topic

I'm sort of surprised that leading up the Olys the British government didn't take the opportunity to return them while all eyes were turned toward Greece. Would've been good PR. I read a couple books on the subject after I returned from London in 98. I had been quite disturbed at how out of place the marbles looked hanging there, especially since I knew the situation in Greece had changed and they'd be more appropriately housed there. Both books I read indicated that Elgin took them with no real intention of &quot;preservation&quot; but rather just to add to his collection, and given he had debt issues as well, probably to cover those!

I've not read the books you mentioned, amyb, but the Times article seems to paint a slightly different version. You may be interested in taking a look at it.

In any case, I'm not an expert in this area.

One by now means has to be an expert in this area to know what is the morally right thing to do.

They should be back in Athens, however, we've had them so long, nothing will ever change!

And lest someone think I feel this passionately about the Marbles return to Greece because I am of Greek heritage, I can assure you, I couldn't BE more Scottish and English (at least 100 times more British than the Royal Family, that's for sure!)

Well, Spy, I don't want to get into a huge argument, as I obviously don't care and have better things to do than to debate whether the marbles should go to Greece or to the UK. But appealing to morality isn't necessarily the most convincing argument either -- unless you're Kantian or live in some utopia. Perhaps that's why there're laws and why this debate over the marbles goes on and on.

And, in any case, to play devil's advocate, why is it so &quot;immoral&quot; that the marbles are in the UK, anyway?

Yes indeed ... you are very passionate about the Elgin Marbles.

I am not so foolish not to defend your right to be so.

But the thread gets into greater philosophical/practical theories...
doesn't it?

And MK2-thanks for not giving the typical prevaricating, obfuscating English response!

Whats wrong with bringing morality into the issue. Kind of fits. I'll give you another thought about &quot;immoraltiy&quot; in the British Museum: Is it right to pull out all those mummies from Egypt as well as those natually preserved bodies and display them in a glass case? Would you want your ancestors' graves dug up
and displayed all for &quot;education&quot; sake?
Mark

And 111-as far as morality goes-it plays a signficant maybe predominant role in issues of this sort-namely the repatriation of certain cultural artefacts. When you're talking about artistic treasures that a particular nation or peoples emotionally and culturally identify with, then the possessor must look beyond the legal arguments that might favor its continued ownership and determine, given the totality of the circumstances, the significant relationships, if you will, of the artefacts in question to the countries in question, what is the morally right thing to do- regardless of what the law would uphold.

Museums do this all the time. They return artefacts they hold for non-legal reasons that have been taken from native peoples, even when a court decision would determine that the museums in question had lawful ownership of the &quot;rem&quot; -in other words, they take the moral highroad-which is what the English did with the Stone of Destiny, but something they flat out refuse to do here with Greece and the Parthenon Marbles-for a variety of pernicious, illigitmate reasons-and I'm not one to play the race card unless I think it is justified, which I do here!

P.S. Just saw your post Mark-COULD NOT agree with you more! (Later-must go now!)

While I'm not sure how accurate that Guardian link is (posted by mpoll) I'd suggest that you take a look at it also, Spy. I found it pretty interesting.

In any case, honestly, whether the British Museum should return the Elgin Marbles, let's get real here, Mark. As has been mentioned, all the great museums house plundered treasures. Why should the Egyptian mummies of the British Museum be singled out?

I for one wish we'd give the bloody marbles back just to stop the likes of Spygirl hurling insults at an entire nation. If she were to read the discussion held a while ago on the BBC, she would see that the majority of British people are quite happy to see the marbles go back. If she had read a Mori poll held in Britain on the subject, she would see that two thirds of the British public would vote for their return in a referendum. Also, two thirds of our MPs would vote the same way.

http://www.mori.com/polls/1998/elgin.shtml

Insult our government, insult the curators of the British Museum, but keep me out of it thanks very much.

Thanks for the link 111OP. However, I'm not so sure that Lady Elgin was the first western lady to be allowed into the royal harem. I think the Valida Sultana mentioned in the article is the same woman who was the subject of the novel Valide--she was believed to be a &quot;grande blanche&quot; from the Caribbean--a wealthy orphan of French parentage who was captured by pirates near Tangiers (I think) and became part of the royal harem, rising to become Valide.
At any rate, if the British majority are willing to see them go back, it would be a grand, generous gesture to return them. Whatever the justification of &quot;preserving&quot; them in the past, there's no doubt that the Greeks would take superb care of them now.

Spygirl - I am sickend and very offened that as an English peosion you call me rasist. You dont know me! you dont know 56 million people, yet you call us rasist! and its you who are ignorant about the facts!. I dont think I have ever hear such a lload of knee jerk reactionary statements! From your other post your are not British so please put your own house in order before you unleash your bile on the English. For all our faults I am proud to be English and all that the oldest democratic county in the world stands for.

Should I return my cuckoo clock to Germany?

Maybe the USA should give Manhattan back to the native Americans????

Maybe Greece should give Cyprus back to the Turks????

And should we take it all one step further and tell everyone to go back where they came from? Actually, most of us would have difficulty with that, now, wouldn't we? Even &quot;native americans&quot; came from some place else. Humans have behaved badly towards each other from the beginning of time. NO EXCEPTIONS! Let's just admit that and call a truce.

Has nothing to do with the marbles, but everything to do with returning things from a museum to their rightful owners:

National Museum of the American Indian www.nmai.si.edu

NMAI's collections include materials not only of cultural, historical, and aesthetic interest, but also of spiritual significance. Funerary, religious, and ceremonial objects associated with living cultures are displayed only with the approval of the appropriate tribes. Repatriation is another important concern being addressed by the museum. Human remains and funerary objects, religious and ceremonial artifacts, communally owned tribal property, or any holdings acquired illegally are returned upon request to individual descendants or tribal groups who can demonstrate a cultural affiliation and factual claim to the property in question.

<b><i>Are artifacts being given back to the tribes?</i></b>
Yes. In 1989 the National Museum of the American Indian Act became federal law. This policy describes the NMAI policy and procedure for: (1) the repatriation of Native American human remains and funerary objects; (2) the repatriation of objects of religious, ceremonial, and historical importance to Native American peoples, communally-owned tribal property, and other property acquired by or transferred to the Museum illegally; and (3) the treatment and display of Native American materials. The Repatriation office provides consultation and assistance to domestic and international indigenous communities for the research and repatriation of specific kinds of culturally sensitive collections. Staff members work closely with community representatives to provide appropriate care and management for these collections, and the Museum sponsors workshops and publications that address repatriation issues.

Shanna has the right of it.

Its what I meant earlier...its as old as mankind...

Say 111op-I was referring to the &quot;morality&quot; issue regarding the mummies. Its not like they were a diamond taken and put on display-they were living human beings whose tombs were disturbed and put on display in a foreign nation. You still ok with that? As for the plunder, if everybody does it, does that make it ok? Frankly, I think its wrong we took the land from the Native Americans here in the U.S.-but hey, if not, I wouldn't have a place to stand. But I still think it was wrong. The Acropolis is one of the last pieces of Antiquity still standing and its incomplete. They want their ancestors artwork back, so give it back and submit a bill.
The Brits phony excuses in response to the request, however, only further magnifies the issue and invites challenge-at least for me.

Well I don't know. I guess you don't run the show, Mark. Neither do I, of course.

Really I don't feel like arguing -- it's quite clear to me that there're some people who feel very strongly about this issue, and honestly, I just don't feel strongly about it to care. I do find it interesting though to read about the various developments and the various arguments that both sides have come up with addressing the issue.