One by now means has to be an expert in this area to know what is the morally right thing to do.

They should be back in Athens, however, we've had them so long, nothing will ever change!

And lest someone think I feel this passionately about the Marbles return to Greece because I am of Greek heritage, I can assure you, I couldn't BE more Scottish and English (at least 100 times more British than the Royal Family, that's for sure!)

Well, Spy, I don't want to get into a huge argument, as I obviously don't care and have better things to do than to debate whether the marbles should go to Greece or to the UK. But appealing to morality isn't necessarily the most convincing argument either -- unless you're Kantian or live in some utopia. Perhaps that's why there're laws and why this debate over the marbles goes on and on.

And, in any case, to play devil's advocate, why is it so "immoral" that the marbles are in the UK, anyway?

Yes indeed ... you are very passionate about the Elgin Marbles.

I am not so foolish not to defend your right to be so.

But the thread gets into greater philosophical/practical theories...
doesn't it?

And MK2-thanks for not giving the typical prevaricating, obfuscating English response!

Whats wrong with bringing morality into the issue. Kind of fits. I'll give you another thought about "immoraltiy" in the British Museum: Is it right to pull out all those mummies from Egypt as well as those natually preserved bodies and display them in a glass case? Would you want your ancestors' graves dug up
and displayed all for "education" sake?
Mark

And 111-as far as morality goes-it plays a signficant maybe predominant role in issues of this sort-namely the repatriation of certain cultural artefacts. When you're talking about artistic treasures that a particular nation or peoples emotionally and culturally identify with, then the possessor must look beyond the legal arguments that might favor its continued ownership and determine, given the totality of the circumstances, the significant relationships, if you will, of the artefacts in question to the countries in question, what is the morally right thing to do- regardless of what the law would uphold.

Museums do this all the time. They return artefacts they hold for non-legal reasons that have been taken from native peoples, even when a court decision would determine that the museums in question had lawful ownership of the "rem" -in other words, they take the moral highroad-which is what the English did with the Stone of Destiny, but something they flat out refuse to do here with Greece and the Parthenon Marbles-for a variety of pernicious, illigitmate reasons-and I'm not one to play the race card unless I think it is justified, which I do here!

P.S. Just saw your post Mark-COULD NOT agree with you more! (Later-must go now!)

While I'm not sure how accurate that Guardian link is (posted by mpoll) I'd suggest that you take a look at it also, Spy. I found it pretty interesting.

In any case, honestly, whether the British Museum should return the Elgin Marbles, let's get real here, Mark. As has been mentioned, all the great museums house plundered treasures. Why should the Egyptian mummies of the British Museum be singled out?

I for one wish we'd give the bloody marbles back just to stop the likes of Spygirl hurling insults at an entire nation. If she were to read the discussion held a while ago on the BBC, she would see that the majority of British people are quite happy to see the marbles go back. If she had read a Mori poll held in Britain on the subject, she would see that two thirds of the British public would vote for their return in a referendum. Also, two thirds of our MPs would vote the same way.

http://www.mori.com/polls/1998/elgin.shtml

Insult our government, insult the curators of the British Museum, but keep me out of it thanks very much.

Thanks for the link 111OP. However, I'm not so sure that Lady Elgin was the first western lady to be allowed into the royal harem. I think the Valida Sultana mentioned in the article is the same woman who was the subject of the novel Valide--she was believed to be a "grande blanche" from the Caribbean--a wealthy orphan of French parentage who was captured by pirates near Tangiers (I think) and became part of the royal harem, rising to become Valide.
At any rate, if the British majority are willing to see them go back, it would be a grand, generous gesture to return them. Whatever the justification of "preserving" them in the past, there's no doubt that the Greeks would take superb care of them now.

Spygirl - I am sickend and very offened that as an English peosion you call me rasist. You dont know me! you dont know 56 million people, yet you call us rasist! and its you who are ignorant about the facts!. I dont think I have ever hear such a lload of knee jerk reactionary statements! From your other post your are not British so please put your own house in order before you unleash your bile on the English. For all our faults I am proud to be English and all that the oldest democratic county in the world stands for.

Should I return my cuckoo clock to Germany?

Maybe the USA should give Manhattan back to the native Americans????

Maybe Greece should give Cyprus back to the Turks????

And should we take it all one step further and tell everyone to go back where they came from? Actually, most of us would have difficulty with that, now, wouldn't we? Even "native americans" came from some place else. Humans have behaved badly towards each other from the beginning of time. NO EXCEPTIONS! Let's just admit that and call a truce.

Has nothing to do with the marbles, but everything to do with returning things from a museum to their rightful owners:

National Museum of the American Indian www.nmai.si.edu

NMAI's collections include materials not only of cultural, historical, and aesthetic interest, but also of spiritual significance. Funerary, religious, and ceremonial objects associated with living cultures are displayed only with the approval of the appropriate tribes. Repatriation is another important concern being addressed by the museum. Human remains and funerary objects, religious and ceremonial artifacts, communally owned tribal property, or any holdings acquired illegally are returned upon request to individual descendants or tribal groups who can demonstrate a cultural affiliation and factual claim to the property in question.

<b><i>Are artifacts being given back to the tribes?</i></b>
Yes. In 1989 the National Museum of the American Indian Act became federal law. This policy describes the NMAI policy and procedure for: (1) the repatriation of Native American human remains and funerary objects; (2) the repatriation of objects of religious, ceremonial, and historical importance to Native American peoples, communally-owned tribal property, and other property acquired by or transferred to the Museum illegally; and (3) the treatment and display of Native American materials. The Repatriation office provides consultation and assistance to domestic and international indigenous communities for the research and repatriation of specific kinds of culturally sensitive collections. Staff members work closely with community representatives to provide appropriate care and management for these collections, and the Museum sponsors workshops and publications that address repatriation issues.

Shanna has the right of it.

Its what I meant earlier...its as old as mankind...

Say 111op-I was referring to the &quot;morality&quot; issue regarding the mummies. Its not like they were a diamond taken and put on display-they were living human beings whose tombs were disturbed and put on display in a foreign nation. You still ok with that? As for the plunder, if everybody does it, does that make it ok? Frankly, I think its wrong we took the land from the Native Americans here in the U.S.-but hey, if not, I wouldn't have a place to stand. But I still think it was wrong. The Acropolis is one of the last pieces of Antiquity still standing and its incomplete. They want their ancestors artwork back, so give it back and submit a bill.
The Brits phony excuses in response to the request, however, only further magnifies the issue and invites challenge-at least for me.

Well I don't know. I guess you don't run the show, Mark. Neither do I, of course.

Really I don't feel like arguing -- it's quite clear to me that there're some people who feel very strongly about this issue, and honestly, I just don't feel strongly about it to care. I do find it interesting though to read about the various developments and the various arguments that both sides have come up with addressing the issue.