In October, we had nasty incident in Italy’s Cinque Terre National park. This is a splendid seacoast area encompassing five small, medieval towns that one can access by hiking trail or train.<BR>We stayed in Riomaggiore and walked the trail to Vernazza, about 8 kilometers.<BR>It was late in the afternoon so, rather than walk back, we decided to take the 15-minute train from Vernazza to Riomaggiore. We bought two tickets in the station for 1600 Lire each (about 80 cents). <BR>When the conductor came by, I gave him our tickets. He immediately started screaming hysterically about not having the tickets stamped. I had no idea what he was talking about and explained that we had just purchased the tickets from the station minutes before.<BR>He said that we had broken Italian law and had to pay a fine. At first he demanded 14,000 Lire but when he saw I had a fair amount of cash on me, the price went up to 80,000 ($40 USD). He said he would have us arrested. I told him, ‘go ahead’. The idea that the Italian courts would prosecute us for an 80-cent ticket seemed ridiculous.<BR>Minutes later, we arrived at our stop. We attempted to get off the train but two conductors physically blocked our exit and demanded payment. I paid them 40,000 Lire in cash but insisted on a receipt that they reluctantly gave me because, I’m sure, the money went into their pockets.<BR>I reported the incident to the local station manager who laughed at me. I also wrote to the Consulate General of Italy in both New York and Philadelphia but received no response. Apparently, the manner in which Italian government workers treat guests in their country is of little importance.<BR>

Jeff - I'm sorry to read about your experience which, unfortunately, is a regular occurrence for visitors to Italy. <BR><BR>There are regular reminders here about the necessity to 'validate' rail tickets in the machine on the platform before boarding, as overseas visitors are often unaware of this requirement.<BR><BR>The ticket is actually issued without a date-stamp, and is not valid for travel until you date-stamp it.<BR><BR>You are not the first and, sadly, you won't be the last to get to get caught in this way, though that's no consolation.<BR><BR>Steve

During a recent GO flight from Stanstead to Rome, I noticed many of the Italian passengers seem to have trouble deciding where to sit. Indeed, after we took off, there was a terrible kuffuffle as many of the Italian passengers tried desperately to change the side of the aircraft they were sitting on and even swoping back again just before we landed! It was bizarre.... but then again... old habits die hard I suppose.

Jeff:<BR>Everything Steve said is correct. To add to this, the ticket system in Italy is on something of an honor system. You are supposed to stamp your own ticket and not have the conductor do it like we are accustomed to. But, they have train inspectors that monitor this. If they catch you with an unvalidated ticket they have the power to fine you on the spot. This is a police power and yes they can have you arrested if you do not pay the fine. Think of them as just like policemen. They can fine you or they can just warn you if they want. When I took the Eurostar Rome to Florence, I did not know that I had to validate my ticket even though it was a reserved seat. The inspector caught me and gave me a lecture in Italian and then hand wrote the validation on the tickets. He was being nice to me (a dumb tourist). He could have fined me as they did you. If you do get caught the best thing to do is be very polite and act confused. Putting up an argument is not a good idea.

Jeff, so sorry to you had to go through that, but thank you VERY much for relating your experiences. I intend to print this out as a reminder to have train tickets validated in Italy. <BR><BR>I wonder what those "conductors" (i.e. con men) would have done if you had just sat back down after they blocked your way? Or if you had given them a taste of their own medicine and started screaming hysterically at them, arms flailing wildly? I suspect they just might have backed down. <BR><BR>At any rate, thanks for the story.

Jeff, I'm sorry you got yelled at. If you go to ricksteves.com and look up under links, you'll find the address of the Italian rail web site (which I can't remember off hand, sorry!) There they list the rules for how much a conductor can legally fine you. There are two fines - one for if you approach the conductor, and explain you forgot to stamp the ticket, and a higher one for if he finds you first. <BR><BR>The trick is to remember that all 'tickets' sold in Italy are vouchers, not actual tickets, until you validate them in the machine. A ticket is supposed to be good only for one journey on a specific date and time. Without a date-time stamp, the ticket could theoretically be used again.<BR><BR>

Sounds more like extortion than bribery, or what we call "highway robbery". Maybe "railway robbery" would be more accurate - whatever it is called, it does not reflect well on the Italian train system. Thanks for posting; live and learn I guess.

Jim D:It is neighter extortion nor bribery. It's the way they enforce the law in Italy. Of, couse they don't do it the same as in the US. If you get a ticket from a policeman in the US they write you a ticket. You have the option of mailing in the fine or going to court. If they catch you violating the law in Italy, you have the option of paying the fine on the spot or going to jail and telling the judge your story.<BR>It's not worse in Italy, just different. If you are going to go there, you need to know the system. They do a lot of things differently in other countries than they do here. Like, they run their trains a lot better than we do. The fines do not go in the inspector's pocket but go to the government.

We also experienced the yelling, not to mention the hand jestures, on a bus from Positano to Amalfi a couple of years ago, b/4 we knew that you were supposed to get the ticket stamped. We had bought the ticket just b/4 boarding the bus, and the lady we bought it from understood English so there was no miscommunication about which bus we were to catch. Also, she never mentioned anything about getting the ticket stamped. So when the "conductor" started carrying on we had NO!!!! idea what the problem was. Finally we figured it out, but he was getting madder and madder. He probably didn't fine us b/c he knew if we couldn't understand about validating the ticket, we'd never figure out his trying to collect a fine from us. Fortunately the stop he had to/wanted to get off at was the next one. What I was surprised at (aside from the whole incident itself), was that with all his carrying on there wasn't someone on that bus who could speak English & Italian to explain the situation to us. Where are the bilingal tourists/residents when you need them?

Gerry, re your last sentence: Yeah, right. Keep telling yourself that - I have been to Italy a few times and have formed a different conclusion. Cheers.

Ignorance of the law is no defence. Before you travel anywhere, at least learn a few words of the language, enough to recognise public notices. Also read up about local laws and customs, there are many useful books and websites.

To Jeff Houdre,<BR><BR>Sorry that you feel that you were cheated. Though maybe you were, a little.<BR>I haven't checked out this board for quite a while.<BR>Before I did a tour of Italy this past May/June, did do lots of reading about travel in Italy. Even though I did an escourted 'coach tour', not independent, I was aware that all train tickets needed to be 'validated' before hopping on the train. (it is mention in at least one of the guide books that I read, Lonely Planet).<BR>While waiting for the train to arrive at the Rome Airport station, to take me into Rome, a person (inspector?) came along, checking that all tickets were validated. I had punched mine in the machine before entering onto the platform.<BR><BR>My eldest son & daughter-in-law stayed in the Cinque Terre area in October this year and had no trouble with their train travel. They also were aware of the need to validate tickets.<BR>The change from 14,000 lire to 80,000 is a bit sus.<BR>Having said that, thank you for posting this subject. Hopefully it will make other travellers aware of the legal need to validate their train tickets in Italy, or else be faced with an expensive fine. ciao, Pauline<BR> <BR>

The proper amount that a conductor is required to charge for an unvalidated ticket is 10,000 lire per ticket to have the ticket validated by the conductor and a 30,000 lire per ticket penalty. Hence, 80,000 lire was the proper amount for two tickets. If you forget to validate the ticket and approach the conductor voluntarily, only the 10,000 lire amount applies. Tickets must be validated to insure that they are not used multiple times. Similar penalties apply for sitting in first class with a second class ticket, riding on a Eurostar or Intercity train with a regular (non-supplement) ticket or not having a ticket at all. Since conductors can get into trouble for not enforcing these penalties, I'm not sure that there was any bribe involved here.

I don't know the legal handling in Italy but I guess that it's similar to the system used in Germany. <BR><BR>In Germany, using a public transport without a validated ticket is fraud. The on spot fines are the minimum penalty for it, not the maximum. Repeat offenders are regularily taken to court for it and they get large fines and a criminal record. While first-time offenders are normally only fined on spot, the conductors have the right to report you to the police and many DA's will then take you to court even for a first offense. The conductors are not required to accept offenses, foul language or implications that they want to be bribed, embezzle the fines, extortion or rob money. As in any dealing with law enforcement personnel, such a behaviour is the best way to find out how tough laws really are. <BR><BR>Conductors quite often give only a warning to tourists, especially if they are obvioulsy confused by the system (and public transport systems can be very confusing even if you speak the local language). But they are not required to do so and they have the full backing of the law and the police if they don't give you the benefit of the doubt. Don't forget that they hear excuses for not having a valid ticket every day from people which intentionally don't want to pay for the ride and it's part of their job not to believe every story they hear. <BR><BR>I totally agree with Gerry that the best way to handle such a situation is being very polite and acting confused. One should also be apologetic for making a mistake since one just broke the law, whether intentional or not. If one starts an argument, the conductors automatically lose any goodwill they might have and there's no way to win an argument with them.

It really sounds as if you were fined the appropriate amount by the proper authorities, but that is not always the case. We were warned in both Budapest and in Poland, that there are locals who make a living at watching tourists get on a bus or train without validating their tickets, then get on, introduce themselves as "authorities" and collect fines from them. If you even suspect that the person is a fake, ask to see their identification. A simple pulling out your drivers license and pointing to it, then gesturing for them to do the same should work in even the worst lanquage barrier situation.

We also forgot to validate our ticket from Venice to Florence but the conductor was so nice. He knew we were tourists and weren't aware that we had to do so but he just hand wrote the validation and wished us good day. I guess it depends on who you get.

And, perhaps, it depends on how you act once you have been approached.

You may be right, Audrey. A few weeks ago we caught a train from Rome to Florence with just a few minutes to spare. Once on the train we realized that we had not validated out tickets. We were resigned to pay the fine as we did not have time to hop off the train to validate. When the conductor came around I handed him our tickets with a "Buon giorno" and my most sincere smile. He looked at the tickets, turned them over, looked at us, then wrote something on the tickets and handed them back. Perhaps it was my husband's gray hair...whatever, but when he left we let out a big sigh of relief!

If you buy a multi-day ticket (like for the Rome transit system, I think it was)Do NOT validate it over and over - just once. I was warned, if you validate it several times, the date is unreadable and your investement is garbage - and you risk a fine.<BR>Once in Rome I realized (a long way from the hotel) that I wasn't carrying my ticket. You really feel exposed when you suddenly realize you're not "legal" on that bus.<BR>A LOT of European systems use honour system travel. Pay atention to the rules.