Hanl : Is that tense that is written but never spoken the Passe - Historique ? Or something like that ? When I was studing French in school, I too was quite taken with French grammar and I seem to rcall this tense though we didn't study it very much. Is it still used much ?

Mathieu, there's the passé simple (simple past) which is rarely used in speech except, occasionally, "fut" (was). You do meet it in written documents though, including modern literature.
There's also the imperfect subjunctive (which gives some improbable formations such as "saucissonnassions"), which I've never heard any French person use when speaking, except for French teachers!

hanl wrote: "Sorry. I get a bit too worked up about French grammar."

You know yourself better than I do, but I venture to disagree: the world needs grammarians. That does not apply only at the simple level of enabling people to use language better, but also because an understanding of the nature of language is a key to understanding people.

Having flattered, I now have a question: is the use of "guère" with "ne" archaic? I was pulled up on it by a Frenchman who said that it is no longer used.

I had a French professor who once disappeared from the lecture hall and on returning announced "Il fallait que je pissasse"

It was necessary that I should pee.

Only a very educated French person would recognise that as correct French.

Padraig, I agree that understanding grammar is no bad thing! :) And it's essential to learning foreign languages. It's one of the problems that language teachers face, apparently, because many school/university students do not understand how their own language works, and therefore struggle to apply grammatical rules to foreign languages.

As for "ne... guère", I don't think it's an archaism, though it isn't something you'd hear in spoken French every day. I do come across it fairly regularly in written documents though, and not necessarily highbrow ones. If you Google "n'a guère" or "n'est guère", for instance, you'll come across plenty of modern examples of usage.

Never heard guère used in conversation.

An importance difference in grammar is the distinction between prescriptive and descriptive grammar.

A French grammarian will tell you how French SHOULD be spoken.

An English grammarian will tell you how English IS spoken.

The French approach is enormously frustrating. If reading a contemporary author like Daniel Pennac, who uses a lot of slang, you can't find half the words in a French/French dictionary because it's "slang" and "not French" even though the French speak like that.

An English/French dictionary will include pretty much all slang terms.

There is an argument that literary French is indeed a fiction in itself and not a language at all, since no-one speaks it.

Ne...guère is quite commonly used, but it is nevertheless quaint. Il n'est guère difficile de trouver des exemples. (Naturally, "il n'est pas difficile" is more common.)

As for "naguère," it is in interesting word that means 'formerly' or 'in olden times,' just like 'jadis.'

"There is an argument that literary French is indeed a fiction in itself and not a language at all, since no-one speaks it".

But lots of people read and write it !
As to slang, have you tried the Robert dictionnaries?
Slang is not a "fixed' language, it changes all the time so it is almost impossible to keep track of all the words. A colloquial expression in fashion in September will be out of date next spring.
C'est génial was c'est super was c'est géant was c'est sensass etc, etc....

Despite what I said earlier about wanting my ignorance left undisturbed, I find this discussion very interesting.

Yes, I recognise what waring said about the French approach to language being prescriptive. I am not convinced that the English (if he means "from England") approach is descriptive. It seems to me that Americans are generally descriptivists, but British and Irish people are divided on the question.

On the use of "guère", my suspicions are almost confirmed: that it belongs in a slightly formal register of language usage, and might be considered odd in informal conversation. So far as I can remember, I have used it in conversation on only that one occasion, and that was because it seemed to me at the time to convey just the nuance I wanted (I wish I could remember the specifics). It is much easier for me to find the right register in English.

I don't feel old fashion because I use "guère" quite regurlarly.
Ce matin je n'avais guère envie de me lever.... instead of je n'avais pas très envie de ...
I think I must be lazy since it is shorter and easier to say! You should try it! :-)

I'm just curious about all of the discussion this grammatical rule has created. I wonder why many travel questions, which are what the post is about, get so many fewer responses! How about everyone posting on a grammar/language web? Yes, it's interesting, but it's getting a little old, n'est-ce pas??

Back to travel!

Will my butt look big in Austria if I'm wearing tennis shoes, and how much bigger will it appear to get if I want to watch the Superbowl and ask for ketchup?

Franchement, oui, c'est interesant, et il y a pas mal de gens ici, assez intelligents, avec des opinions et educations divers.

Personellement, cela me fait plaisir, et c'est le plaisir qui compte!

La vie est belle non?

Waring, Comme une femme d'un certain age, I want to thank you for translating one of my most frequently used phrases into such meticulous French: "Il fallait que je pissasse." Its use is only surpassed (or should I say preceded) by that other favorite: "J'ai envie de faire pipi." Oui, la vie est belle. Thanks for the laugh. EJ ((#))

And thanks and guffaws from me too, Waring ! :)

<i>'je sais pas'?</i>

waring... is that anything like &quot;Just say no&quot;? :-D

francegirl, do you think that I am more likely to respond to those travel questions that receive your imprimatur if threads like this are killed off? Would you like me to answer questions to which I do not know good answers?

And in what way is language usage not a travel matter? Most of the occasions when I use French are when I travel in France; just about all the rest happen when French-speakers travel here.

My command of French is moderate, and I would like to improve it; it matters more to me than being guided on what to wear for dining in Paris (or, indeed, swimming in Paris).

This is fascinating to me too, it shows how much more I need to learn. What a great challenge this language is (other than being extremely beautiful), I love it!

Back to the original topic. Which is the correct answer to Waring's question (&quot;La vie est belle non?&quot;):

A.&quot;La vie est belle si&quot;

B.&quot;Oui, la vie est belle&quot;

C. All of the above

D. None of the above

C :-)