I think Bill_Bolton has a point. When I visited Europe many years ago I had to stay away from American tourists, because I picked up the accent too easily. And when I spoke "American" I was often ripped off. When I spoke in my normal Oz/English accent I wasn't.

Suelynn, Italy, as ever country, is not like it was "many years ago". If you go back to Italy don't expect it to be the Italy you visited "many years ago". Best regards.

Hi LoveItaly,
The experiences I had were actually in Spain and Germany. I spoke some Italian so didn't have the problem there - and can't remember travelling with Americans there anyway.
Yes, I am aware Italy - specifically central Italy and particularly Rome - will have changed after so many years. We had a few days in Lombardy a few years ago but that was new to me so I couldn't compare.

In two months we'll be back in Rome!

Who was it above who said they didn't remember being overcharged?

That's the point!

I don't think "they" overcharge foreigners, instead, I think "they" just give their friends and neighbors a sepcial break...

> than say the British

You have completely missed the point. There are many, many "accents" amongst English speakers.

NativeNewYorker: The confusion about the conductor is understandable if your friends assumed conductors were similar to flight attendants, who of course usually speak English, at least on international or interEuropean flights. However, as others have noted, one cannot rely on this service from train conductors. Unlike their flight attendant cousins, conductors in the main deal only with passengers local to the area traversed by that particular train, and thus can be assumed to speak only the respective language. As with every assumption, though, there are exceptions. On our first trip to Italy, a train conductor at the Florence station surprised us by responding to us in English. (The surprise was that he spoke English, not that he detected us to be anglophones, which was pretty easy to figure out.)

This is, of course, a totally separate issue from the NYTimes article.

Regarding the article, there are no universal rules when it comes to petty crime: I've been charged for unnecessary work in my home town, but this is far from the norm. And we've been charged well above the market rate in Italy and France, but this was also not the norm, so far as we were able to tell. Admittedly, sometimes I suspect we got the correct price because we enquired beforehand, or objected to the amount of change given, but equally sometimes the proprietor simply didn't attempt anything untoward. Since it does happen though, a polite but serious inquiry, prior to ordering, as to the price of any item is the strategy we have adopted to reduce the frequency of annoying incidences.

Native New Yorker....I'm surprised you didn't post a link to the article you referred to in the NYTimes. For those readers who would like a little more prospective here it is.....

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/09/wo...mp;oref=slogin

I think the the degree to which people feel "unwelcomed" is usually related to the degree to which they have higher expectations for the behavior of others than they have for themselves.

Is not expecting fraud too high of an expectation?

Is not expecting common decency from a fellow human being too high of an expectation?

There is no excuse for criminal behavior -- and that's what stealing is so, please, do not embarrass yourself by minimizing it.

I was in Amalfi a few springs ago and saw a class of about 20 10-11 year olds run up to an ice cream shop. The teacher started to order ice cream cones for all of them. I decided I wanted a cone too assuming it must be good if the teacher was bringing her class there. I go up to the counter and order one in perfect italian (with a French/Spanish/American accent). He serves it to me and asks for 7 euros! This was for a small cone, the same size all the kids had been give.. I looked him straight in the eye, motioned toward the group of kids,handed the ice cream back to him and said "Che vergogna" (how shameful).

Went to Italy for the first time this year. Loved it, had great food experiences, very much enjoyed meeting people.

Hated, however, having to be on guard constantly to avoid being ripped off. It really doesn't make for a fun vacation or relaxing dinner when one must spend one's precious vacation time fending off efforts by others to take more of YOUR money out of your pocket without your consent. There should be some interest on the part of the government in countries where this is a problem to crack down on it.

We did succomb to one of the fellows who sells bubbles on the street for our now 2 year old and had to buy one of his little guns that was packaged with a bottlbe of bubble solution. The guy had a nice new package that he showed us as he chased us down the street trying to entice our child who was riding in his stroller.

We wanted bubbles anyway, so no big deal - I handled the negotiations, agreed on a price, gave him his euros, and reached out to take the package. He quickly switched the nice new package with one that was torn open and missing the bubble solution (he sneakily placed it in the stroller in my son's lap). My husband didn't even notice. I shook my head, handed it back to him and held out my hand. He pushed it back to me, gave me a half empty bottle of some clear liquid, then tried to scurry off like the little insect he was. I (all 5'2" of me) followed him, yelling and waving the substitute item - he wasn't going to get away from me! I stopped him, shoved the dirty object in his face, got the proper bubble package, and had about 3 little old Italian ladies chasing after me and yelling at the little guy. It was quite a scene. The ladies cheered when I succeeded in getting the nice new package he had offered. My son still plays with that bubble gun....

I guess if there was a crack down on the scammers, I wouldn't have such a fun story and memory, but at least get these guys to stop doing it in the restaurants!!!!

Two couples, close friends of ours, had similarly bad restaurant experiences everywhere they went in Rome and Florence and it was enough to turn them all off of Italy forever. Too bad, as I would like to have them come stay at our Tuscan villa when I rent it on the next trip. :)

Gekko - maybe you embarrass yourself for not reading carefully - and maybe you should do so before you get on your high horse.

I think the poster you criticized was referring to people who feel unwelcome because they expect everyone in europe to accomodate our language and customs... i don't think it had anything to do with fraud. So read before you jump down someone's throat.

I was in Rome for three days in late April (by myself). I was never overcharged. I was eating at small cafes, and always treated very repsectfully by the staff (except for one trattoria which insisted I sit inside. All outside tables were for two or more. right!?!) Overall it was a thoroughly delightful experience.

Good for you both, SF and Cant

((I))

I just have to say I was in Rome 6 times last year for business, each time around 2 weeks. I ate out alot and never was I ripped off. Yes they do charge for the bread basket so I just learned to say no.

I will say the taxi drivers are another matter. They have 2 tariffs, 1 for Rome and surrounding area and 2 for outside the circle (can't remember exact name). Almost every morning as I was picked up to go to work I had to tell them to change it to 1, 2 is about 30-40% higher rates.

What's with the "Catholic ethics" crack? If it happened in Israel would you mention "Jewish ethics?" I would hope not.

The New York Times article depressed me when I saw it in their travel section and I am glad it is being discussed here on Fodor's.

As I prepare for my first-ever trip to Italy this does not fill me with happy anticipation. My usual approach to new situations is to "go with the flow." I can see where going with the flow in this case might lead me into a huge rip-off.

Do you think you have a better chance of being treated honestly if you ask your hotel to make your reservations?

I've picked up on the idea of asking "how much?" to any recommendations, that makes sense.

But I hate the idea of going on my trip constantly on guard and eyeing everyone as a potential thief.

Any other suggestions?

I am slightly confused by all this. As far as I can remember, Restaurants and bars <u>must&lt;\u&gt; display prices, and must, by law, give an itemised reciept. Any discrepancies should be obvious.

If you have been ripped off, and been charged for something you did not have, then dispute the bill. If they insist, and you are positive no simple error has been made ask them to call the police. </u>

apologies for the poor formatting above.
I was experimenting and forgot to preview.