There is a planning continuum that runs between two extremes: leaving nothing to chance on the left, and responding only to whim and circumstance at the other end. I guess a lot of travellers are pressed for time and inevitably gravitate towards the left-hand end of the scale. But I feel, as one who has been vacationing and/or living overseas for something over forty years, much of this before the advent of Lonely Planet and web travel forums, that Fodorites in general are losing something: a) by not leaving a component in their travel plans to be determined by chance alone b) by being preoccupied by 'must-sees', and the inevitable neighbourhood debriefing when they get home: 'what, you went to Germany and didn't get to Rothenburg'? Shouldn't we all lighten up a bit and put some mystery and excitement back into travel. 'Where the hell are we going to stay tonight?' 'OK we missed the train, what do we do now?' The objective of a tightly-planned itinerary quickly becomes making the itinerary work, and proving your expertise at planning, when it was meant to be enjoyment of new experiences. What do YOU think?

I have become addicted to this internet planning, Fodor's forum especially, partly because it's a sort of substitute for the actual travelling in between trips and partly because it's just so interesting to learn about places, even those which will probably never make it on to a real itinerary for me. I like having lots of information ahead of time, but I don't feel especially bound to follow any pre-made plan if it doesn't suit the circumstances or events of the moment. In other words, I would hate travelling with someone who insisted on spending Tuesday morning (as planned) at the Colisseum, even if Tuesday turned out to be cold and rainy, but I would also hate travelling with someone who had failed to find out that the Colisseum was an important thing to see in Rome. I guess this means I'm middle of the road, in this as in most things!

Maybe I just have an addictive personality or maybe I have too much planning time on my hands, but when I start to plan a major trip (usually almost two years ahead) I do a LOT of research. By the time I have trimmed and refined my plans, I have a very good idea of how much time we will need or want and what we will want to see. Sometimes it is almost scary as we drive into a city and I say, "when we see the big yellow building on the corner, we turn left," almost as if I had been there before. Like the post above, I can't imagine going someplace and not having a pretty good idea of the important things you'll want to do there. And as for delaying the trip by staying an extra day or two in one place, that means that you are going to have to cancel something that your planning told you you really wanted to see. For our 5 months in Europe this summer (see my I'm not Lying post) we have booked all but four nights of our entire trip. Those nights are in areas where we feel that it will indeed be easy to find hotels and we really are just treating those times as leisure drive days (two days on the coast of Crete and two days on the coast of Turkey between Antalya and Bodrum. But otherwise, I really do not enjoy arriving in a town in the early afternoon and spending several hours looking for where we will spend the night. My hotels are picked after a lot of research and usually a minimum of two recommendations for their charm, location, and friendliness of staff. While we may not spend a lot of time in our room, where we stay is an important part of our whole travel experience. In Europe when we have booked three or four days at one hotel, it is almost always possible to cancel out and leave a day earlier (at least if you have booked directly with the hotel, another reason not to book in the US or use some sort of prepaid voucher system). But in all our travels I can only remember doing that twice. Once because Toulouse was incredibly hot and the air in our beautiful hotel just couldn't handle it, and we had done everything we had planned to do in three days in two, so we headed off to the mountains for the day and night, before proceeding on to St. Jean de Luz. <BR>We seldom miss our estimates of how long we want to stay in one place. Five days to a week is the normal minimum for a major city, three nights is the morm for smaller cities, and sometimes just one or two nights along the way at a tiny village or countryside spot. I am amazed at how seldom we hear later about something we really missed anywhere we've been, except for shops, but we really don't shop when we travel. As for the lack of excitement?? Never fear, we always manage to miss a turn or get lost or sidetrack to a pretty road along the way. That is always excitement enough for us. And with three days in most places, if something unexpected is happening near by, you can always cancel one day's plans and do that unexpected. For us, this is the PERFECT way to travel.

I recommend planning but not over-planning if that makes sense. Allow some time to make changes, take a ride down a country road, spend some extra time in a museum/pub/store/ or just "doing nothing", i.e. a walk in a park, an ice cream come along the Seine, or even sleeping in an extra hour or so one day (traveling can be tiring). Most of the best fun we've had was unexpected things. We certainly enjoy the Louvre, The Prado, British Museum, etc. but we still talk about the two workmen in Chicester who we met while we were strolling down a side street heading back to the car park. Their truck had the words "rising damp" on the side and that phrase fascinated us because we had watched an old comedy on PPS called Rising Damp at one time. We stopped to talk to them and they ended up taking us through the house they were working on remodeling and we had a marvelous hour,not only discussing rising damp (mold and mildew) but learning about resorting an old home and seeing fireplaces that had been boarded up and now being restored, etc. <BR> <BR>This was only one of many times we did something "untouristy" and loved it - this is not to knock the major sights because they are wonderful too, but allow some time for the unexpected,which frequently can turn into a great experience. Everyone has their own pace of course, but don't overdo it is my feeling and we've been traveling many years. I'd rather miss a place then rush through it and not remember much about it anyway afterwards.

Well, now you've started something! This thread will go on forever, I'm sure. I am a planner rather than a "fly by the seat of my pants" type and apparently not too different from many experienced travelers who are long time contributors to this site. Some years ago I posted a rather rhetorical query to Fodor's for the benefit of first time European travelers. It was captioned "How do you plan your European trip?" and still seems to resurrect itself annually. Most of the respondents echoed much of my philosophy regarding travel. The near consensus suggested that careful planning for a European adventure can be as enlightening and rewarding as the trip itself. European travel is a costly luxury, whether it be by a penny scrimping student backpacker holed up in budget hotels and hostels or a traveler prone to stay at five star hotels in major cities and to dine in Michelin starred restaurants to the exclusion of all else. The impact on personal finances is, in either case, a dramatic one. That impact dictates shrewd and meaningful planning. <BR> <BR>My own travel philosophy involves in depth research to answer a number of inter-related questions: Where do I want to go? Why do I want to go there? Will my choices satisfy my interests? How will I get there and how long will I stay? Most importantly, what personal enrichment and knowledge will I acquire? The rewards of travel for me will assuredly differ from those of some others. Hearing a composition of Saint-Saen played on an organ in a Parisian church where he had been organ master was far more rewarding for me than the sight of the Eiffel Tower. The reward of travel should be far more than a "been there - done that" checklist. <BR> <BR>Do I start my journeys with a stopwatch? (It's 9:43AM, Tuesday the sixteenth; we should be at the Franz Hals museum and we're still four blocks away! Hurry, we have a reservation for lunch at the Five Flies in Amsterdam at one.) No, indeed. My planning defines what I hope to see. If something more intriguing comes along, I fully recognize that Europe isn't going anywhere and what I don't see today, I'll see another day. I did get burned on that premise some years ago. I stayed in a 16th century inn in Langnau, Switzerland. Because of its convenient location, I planned to visit Bern and Lucerne over the course of four days. Arising the first morning to the sound of cowbells, I found a herd of cows bedecked in floral headpieces parading to the town's largest parking lot They ended up tethered to its meters while awaiting their turn in a cow judging contest held in the adjoining street. Farm wagons pulled up, farm wives unloaded foodstuffs, farmers set up picnic tables and benches and a daylong bucolic feast ensued. I spend the day captivated, and the next day as well and yet a third day when thoroughbred horses were judged by uniformed officers of the Swiss cavalry (a body I never knew existed). I drank a lot of beer, ate a lot of food, enjoyed the company and hospitality of gracious farmfolk and never ventured into Bern or Lucerne. Two years later, one of the sites in Lucerne that I had hoped to see, the Kapellbrucke, was almost totally destroyed by fire. In a subsequent year I visited Lucerne and the restored Kapellbrucke. While suitably impressed, my lasting memories are of warm hearted, friendly Emmental dairy farmers and three days spent in an animal laden parking lot! Had I planned for it? No. <BR> <BR>While I always plan time for nothing at all - an hour on a park bench - people gazing from a sidwalk cafe - a stroll down an interesting looking side street - a beer or two in an appealing looking pub or brasserie, I never expected a three day interruption to my plans by a bunch of cows and horses. Chagrined at the disruption? Hardly;upon my return home, I began planning yet again to see and experience those things I'd missed.

Wes, <BR>Maybe we can start something here about fun delays caused by animals or some such thing Your story is great. We stopped to look at the ruins in Pevensy (Kent) one time and the fields were over run with lambs, they came up to us, frolicked around, etc. We had a great time with them, to the point that we stayed there far more time than the ruins needed just because the lambs wer so cute! I hate to admit this but my husband enjoyed watching the squirrels in Hyde and Regent's park too - some were downright tame and quite bold. Now I'm a cat lover and we've stopped many the time to play with a cat in a variety of countries. Got to talking with their owners too on occasion and had great times. Some of these things really turn out to be highlights, like your experience did.

Well, I agree with what you are saying for the most part Harzer, but in practice it doesn't work too well for me. I am a major planner, but some of my trips have been undertaken with no more than a month's notice, and then I don't plan as much. It depends on the location too. When I went to Paris, I did a lot (and I mean a lot) of planning. I had wanted to go there for so long and knew quite a bit about the city from literature and history, so my list of must see/must dos was larger than for most first-time visitors. When I went to Mexico, I made a short list of things to definitely see, and the remainder was planned day-to-day. I think I could do what you are suggesting more often if I tended to visit the same places a lot. However, I tend to travel to a large variety of destinations and unfortunately don't have the leisure to return to most, since there are more places to go. Therefore, I try to see as much as I can. The next trips to Paris will be more leisurely. Being a photographer doesn't help either, since I also have to plan when to be somewhere for the best light, smallest or largest crowds, etc. That said, I do always try to leave at least one day with little planned just in case.

I'm a new-comer to international travel, and my first trip was last Oct-Nov. Being a project manager, by career, I plan everything. My well-seasoned world travel partner was the opposite. We ended up leaving the US w/ no reservations anywhere. It was very liberating. We knew the general areas we wanted to see and even found new ones by driving around and talking to locals. Not once were we out in the cold, or sleeping in the car, on the contrary. My next trip in Oct of this yr, however, is not going to be so seat-of-our-pants since I'll have my son with me. The Mom in me must be coming out. -Sandi

Since my first travelling experience without my parents, I've visited both extremes of the planning spectrum. Factors like age and interests in a particular trip, if travelling alone or with wife, kids or friends, travel destination and time of year, etc, do have a bearing on the level of planning. What I've learned in all these years, though, is that overplanning can't hurt. I can't see how knowing as much as possible about the places one intends to visit (history & customs, sites including description, location and opening hours, hotels, restaurants, means of transport within and between cities, special events taking place, etc) could detract from one's personal enrichment and enjoyment. IMO, careful planning doesn't exclude the chance component you're referring to, Harzer. Plans may always be changed ... <BR> <BR>On the other side of the continuum, though, chances are that a lot of the spent time will give very little return. Why spend time in a big city looking for lodging if you could have at least a list of phone numbers to call before arriving? Why enroll in a "reconaissance" tour if you may do it at home? Why spend a lot of time in an entry queue to a museum if you could have reserved it a couple of days in advance? There are chances that things may even get nasty. In September 75 I took a train from the Italian Tyrol to Rome where I would catch my flight home the next day. After looking for a bed (ANY bed) for about 5 hours and over 50 phone calls I just quit (I was totally unaware that this was a Jubilaeum year and that starting to look for a room at 3pm in September was a no no situation). I used the rest of the time in the evening to do some strolling around and, after dinner late at night I went to the Paradiso Club disco and at 4am or so I had to content myself with a bench in Termini. Ok granted I had much fun at the club and sleeping in a bench was not a big deal after all ... Or that other time in February of 86, with a big fair going on in Frankfurt ... well, things fell into place after a couple of hours of unnecessary strain! Or yet that other time in Zurich in winter 69 (no idea what was going on there) where I ended up having to take a train back and forth to Chiasso ... I think I had my share! <BR> <BR>Paulo <BR>

A couple of decades ago, my parents and 2 youngest brothers took a driving vacation. They had 2 1/2 weeks to get from Maryland out to Pike's Peak (my dad's idea} w/points in between, dragging a 19foot sleep-in trailer. Once they finished the Peak, they had a few days extra, so did a BIG detour and headed to Biloxi, MS where I was living at the time. They had just been there 2 mos before, but hey, why not visit me again. About a week after the return to Maryland, one of their friends did the "gee, why didn't you go the next state over and see the Grand Canyon while you were out there?" (#1) my mother (who refused to be involved in any planning) never quite forgave my dad because he didn't buy that next map, and didn't know they were so close. (#2) I learned the basic lesson: a bit of research is a good idea. <BR>I love to research my trips, domestic and abroad, and even various cities that I visit on my numerous business trips. I am usually also planning and refining about 2 years out, as an earlier poster indicated -- frankly, I just enjoy the process, and the fantasizing: I'm not in a hotel in chicago, I'm considering the next bike trip -- which part of France in 2001? Sometimes, friends or family members on my trip (usually the ones who want to experience only that which comes along) have initially expressed dismay that I have a plan, but once I've gotten us to 2 or 3 neat spots (which of course is often how you stumble on the neat unexpected surprise) it's usually been "what's next???" <BR>I find that I particularly enjoy knowing where I'm sleeping at night: I am just more fun to be around if I've gotten my 6-7 hours. My biggest exception was the trip to Ireland in July of 1990, when the angels must have been watching over the 3 of us: our only reservations were 3 nights in nice spots, we had no vouchers or ideas, but found lovely B&B'S each and every night, altho sometimes it was the 2nd or 3rd place we stopped. But, like an earlier poster, I really like to not dedicate some of my day to interviewing hotel rooms. Also, my first trip abroad (2 weeks in france some years ago in late Sept-early Oct) when our only reservations were the initial nights in Paris. Unfortunately, my travel now works around business trips and school breaks, so I will continue to book my hotels, know some of the routes we'll take to get to them, and still leave lots of time for the surprises. Last summer's trip to France, I didn't learn about Clos de Luce until I was skimming a book while heading down the autoroute; my daughter needed a restroom "now, please", so I knew it was at the next exit and had my husband get us there (figuring it would have "un WC"), and it was a delightful happy surprise for us all (not just the chateau, but the tea shop lady making the most architecturally precise "crepes avec oeufs" one could imagine!) <BR>So anyway, to all of us who care, happy planning and thank you all for the delightful ideas (and visual imaginings)I find almost daily on this Forum!

I enjoy researching and throughly planning my trips also. I thought I was too "detailed orientated" but after reading this post, I think not. It's also enjoyable to read about other trips and places that I too, probably would not visit. Perhaps a little daydreaming with it..............

I am anal-retentive/obsessive-compulsive/paranoid control freak so I, of course, plan down to the minute. <BR>As Paolo pointed out, valuable time can be wasted searching for a hotel when a reservation can be made ahead, or standing in line at a museum when a ticket could have been bought thru the web. <BR>As Dan pointed out, a frequently-visited area (for me, it's Paris or London)can be treated more leisurely; a new place? I want to be sure I don't miss something because I didn't know about it, or got to it on the day it was closed. <BR>With the Loons in tow, I feel responsible for making sure all goes well. If it's just Ahgeez and I, then no big deal looking for a hotel (although we've wasted some valuable time in the search for lodgings) but with 6 dames, it's not so much fun. <BR>And, lastly, the very real danger to women; yes, Paolo had no problem with grabbing a bit of sleep in the train station. Guaranteed, a woman would be at risk. For an 18 year old guy, getting off the train in the middle of the night in a strange town and going searching for a room is an adventure; for a woman, it will be utterly terrifying and dangerous. <BR>And overplanning doesn't mean you must stick with the itinerary; if everyone wants to visit Versailles and we're in Paris on Monday and Tuesday, we've got only one day to visit Versailles and I'd better have made the arrangements. If I've planned to take a boat cruise of the Thames, and everyone says "it's too cold, we want to stay here in this pub and drink beer", then we can the yachting adventure. <BR>So, yeah, I overplan, but I'm not stuck on the itinerary as some sort of binding legal document (and, anyway, the Loons wouldn't stand for it).

Surely there are lots of answers to this question and they depend on circumstances at the time. <BR> <BR>If I go on my own (Spain 18 months ago), I'm happy to take a chance because there's only me and if something goes wrong, I can live with it, so for that trip I booked the fights, the car and the first nights accommodation. I had 3 guidebooks and knew roughly where I wanted to go and had probably the best holiday of my life (don't tell my husband who has paid for much more expensive ones which were more restrictive). <BR> <BR>Last year (2 weeks in Crete) he booked the holiday; he will not contemplate going away on an unpackaged deal; but he wouldn't buy a guide book if his life depended on it. <BR> <BR>Me, I'm certain something will turn up, but I'd like to know when I got home that I hadn't missed something great because I didn't know about it.