Buzzy, I know I was kidding around above, but will seriously say now... With your husband's particular sensibilities I don't know why you are set on staying in the Marais. As I suggested earlier how about the 7th, or the 1st? The 5th or 6th? Paris is huge and many areas are beautiful.

Whether true or false you have picked an area often described as a "gay" part of the city, and targeted that for your stay. Why not simply stay in a different part of town? I don't understand the fascination, or setting yourself up for something that might make your husband uncomfortable.

Let me politely suggest (as I wipe the coffee spray off my monitor) that the OP has received sufficient response to her query about Paris and additional discussion on the spinoff topic(s)should move to the Lounge.

Couple years back while working on a project in Paris, I rented an apartment in the Marais for 4-5 weeks and loved staying in this area. It was convenient, lively, had great boutiques and shops were open until all hours. The apartment was in a residential block where other families lived.

Le Marais is a very old interesting part of Paris, I would recommend it to everybody. The Jewish area was extremely interesting to walk around.

What this thread demonstrates is that there are questions you can ask sincerely of a friend or associate that a public forum will misunderstand. Hereabouts you might ask "Which rental car company do you prefer in Italy?" and half your reponses might be along the lines of, "YOU'D HAVE TO BE CRAZY TO DRIVE IN ITALY!"

Buzzy's original post was pretty innocent and well-intentioned. Then pushed into a corner by some who read into it what wasn't there, she may have dug herself into a little hole. But I haven't seen anything there worth attack by others - and she has attacked no one or any group.

We all know that Buzzy's right: the Marais is called Paris's "gay quarter" in guidebooks and articles everywhere, even if it is many other things as well. She wanted to clear up what that meant exactly, before ruling it out as an apartment rental site. That a mature married couple might prefer not to reside in a center of gay nightlife (as some sources indicated it is) makes perfect sense; likewise a young gay couple would usually prefer not to accidentally book themselves into a family resort where they'd be uncomfortable showing affection for one another or just being themselves. (Never mind that they might like other gay people to talk to now and then.) The adventure of travel and new places notwithstanding, most of us enjoy places [hotels, restaurants, etc] where we "see ourselves" among the crowd. Even when we want a totally new environment, we generally have some idea what we're looking for.

And let's be frank: gay people are not anxious to have their favorite bars and cafes populated by people who will look at them with contempt or even curiosity! We're talking about comfort level here, and even open minded people often need to "segue" into a new milieu: this trip a stroll or shopping excursion into the Marais, next time a hotel. It's not necessary, important or even advisable to jump in the deep end of the pool.

On the tangent topic, what is considered "public display of affection" among straight couples is generally something more than holding hands or even a kiss goodbye on a street corner: we are quite used to seeing hetero couples in the clutch of what is basically foreplay, whether on a park bench, a subway platform or a restaurant banquette, and that's what we call "PDA" - but you'll have to be in a gay ghetto indeed before you see a gay couple go beyond simple affectionate gestures in public (so far.) Knowing that there are people around who will snicker at best or are cruising around with baseball bats at worst, means it takes courage to do what a straight couple takes for granted. Gay people far outside the gay centers would like to feel free, but don't. In one important respect, this is good: it gives us, if we want it, an appreciation for what it is to be the minority, even those of us who are white men in America! As Buzzy mentioned, none of us exactly likes to feel like the "odd ones out". But it's not a bad thing to experience what that means.

a simple "no, you wont find it uncomfortable in Paris" would have sufficed but since we all like to exchange thoughts here.
The point is, people should respect others.
I once wanted to go hot potting in a national park. So we suited up and hiked out to an area in a guide book. When we got there it was obviously a meeting spot and there were dozen naked men lounging in the water. I wanted a soak so I wasn't going to let that spoil my day.But if there was any intimate activity, I was drawing the line.People have differing sensibilities.

Give me a break, those people could have had the courtesy to put on a speedo!

Several years ago my wife and I stayed for 5 weeks in an apartment near Le Musee Picasso and very much enjoyed all the areas around there, especially streets toward the Seine and toward Place des Vosges. We would gladly stay in that area again, but we try to locate in a different area each time. So, next May we will stay in an apartment near La Mosquee.

Being "straight" was no reason for us to avoid Le Marais, just as being Jewish is no reason to worry about the area around La Mosquee.

Very funny, hypatia - with the distance of time, anyway!

Once while in Santa Fe NM I had the treat of spending a morning at Ten Thousand Waves, enjoying a massage, sauna etc. The unusual aspect was that the hot tub/plunge pool/sauna area was co-ed and bathing suit optional. I hadn't arrived with one, so the optional part for me was either go without the experience of the tubs, or go without my suit. (as had about half the dozen or so people using it at the same time.) The only problem was that a couple of guests seemed to deal with any nervousness by carrying on a non-stop conversation about nothing - which diminished the effect of being in the japanese-inspired setting under the open sky.

I have to disagree with tomassocroccante (and wholeheartedly agree with Cimbrone). I found the original post offensive. Which is why I thought it was a joke. To my reading the translation of the original post went something like:

I don't like seeing gay people be "gay" and I've heard they tend to hang out in the Marais. So, do you think I should consider staying in the Marais?

Uh, no.

Buzzy has every right to hate whomever she wants -- be it for religious reasons or otherwise. But to foist that sort of bigotry on the board is bad form. For fodor-folk to say its ok is not good.

Someone ought to tell Buzzy that France is 95 percent Catholic. So, it simply does not explain her husbands homophobia (or hers, perhaps) to say he is a Catholic. Lots and lots of Catholics are tolerant folks. To be more accurate she should have said he's a narrow-minded, bigoted, intolerant person.

So, let's pretend Buzzy was totally serious (and not joking or lazy). Here's my answer. If you are homophobic then do not stay in the Marais. But, I should also add, that gays are often unpredictable and sometimes they drink, walk, and live outside their designated Quarter. So, these days, one never knows where they might be lurking. Same goes for communists, jews, blacks, etc. It is indeed a complicated and confusing world we live in.

Saying the 95% of the French population is Catholic when 50% of the population does not even believe in god is ridiculous. 95% are of Catholic origin. I don't know a single person who has had a child baptized in more than 10 years.

My comments are nothing to do with anything about gay lifestyle, it's about smart vacation planning.

I simply can't understand going specifically somewhere that you or your spouse may feel uncomfortable (even if you never see a gay person you'll be thinking of it, as is obvious by making this posting).

Stay in another part of the city and relieve your anxiety. There's all kinds of great neighborhoods in Paris besides the Marais.

Ruechapon...so you're one of those "my way or the highway" type folks? If someone disagrees with you then they're automatically a bigot? It's exactly that attitude that is doing so much damage to gay rights in this country. Why not just give Buzzy some advice on where to avoid something that will make her uncomfortable instead of judging and condemning her? Did she swagger in here talking about damnation of gays? Did she say gays weren't born that way or any of the other things narrow minded people spout off to hurt others? Nope. All she did was kindly (and a bit timidly) ask if what she read was true and to what extent they would encounter an overtly gay lifestyle.

If you read that she hates gays in her OP then you've got a very active imagination. Don't be so easily offended by someone who sees life differently than you (isn't that what gays are usually telling straight people?)...your day will brighten dramatically.

Wekiva -- yep, I'm a "its my way or the highway" type of guy when it comes to homophobia, anti-semitism, and racism. They are wrong. Always have been. I'm not afraid to say that.

How my position sets back the cause of gay rights is a bit beyond me.

Kerouac -- France is 95 percent Catholic. How do I know? Because 95 percent of French people SELF IDENTIFY as Catholics. Now, you might want to say they aren't REAL Catholics if they don't baptize or tolerate gays or whatever but that's your all you, my friend. I will take them at their word. If they say they're Catholic, that's good enough for me.

OMG tomassocroccante that's where it was, just west of Santa Fe!!LOL...the thing is I had a friend's college student daughter with me and so I told the closest one to please keep his legs crossed .... anyway

Uhoh, we're on to religion now...

let's just say if your Jew and Gay phobic pass on the Marais.If your snob phobic stay away from the 7th and Place Vendome.If your student phobic avoid the 5th.Couscous phobic -the St Michel.Dog and smoke phobic- the street and cafes.Tourist phobic-the Eiffel,Notre Dame,the Arch,the Louvre and the Concord.And lastly if you are Arab phobic stay way away from the Galleries Lafayette!!

Ruechapon...since we're in a conversation I'll reply but it's unfortunate to be heading in a negative direciton in such a great travel forum (not just you...the whole discussion).

I totally agree that homophobia, anti-semitism, and racism are wrong; hating anyone is wrong. But I don't believe that someone who disagrees with the gay lifestyle is a bigot. Negative action is required in my mind...something more than an opinion. I believe it's that attitude that turns many people off to the gay cause.

Either way I hope to get back to ANY part of Paris some day soon...gay or non gay area is fine with me.

I'm for letting Buzzy just have whatever kind of vacation she wants to have. I think she should stay somewhere besides the Marais. A vacation shouldn't be for compulsory cultural sensitivity.

Wekiva, we agree. I think I wrote, or at least meant to write that in my opinion she's free to hate whomever she wants. And I'm free to call her a bigot for her prejudices. But sure, if I didn't like gays or whatever then I imagine I'd want to avoid them too. I was just taken aback by how open she was about it. That's why I thought the original post was a joke.

But we agree.

And I agree with Gary.

8)

And I'm not kidding about the Vatican. Check out the hot calendar:

http://www.calendarioromano.co.uk/

>> Because 95 percent of French people SELF IDENTIFY as Catholics. <<

Actually it's somewhere near 65%, but whatever.

http://www.ifop.com/europe/universit...C3%BBt2006.pdf

superheterodyne -- yeah, you're right. interesting. thanks for posting.

someone ought to tell the US press. See for example:

The New York Times
Battle over the banlieues
By David Rieff
Saturday, April 14, 2007

Terrific link, Gary!

What's the Latin for "yum, yum"?

ruechapon

Good try...but she's not hating anyone. Strange world you live in...hating everyone you disagree with.

I didn't see a shred of hate in the first post. A little weirdness, yes. If Buzzy "loved" the Marais, then obviously she's been there and experienced it enough to know that she loves it. Yet in a later post she says she was mainly trying to find out if the Marais is "ostentaciously gay". Duh. If she's been there and experienced it and loved it, wouldn't she be aware for herself how "ostentaciously gay" the place is? And as one of the first posts said, "if you walk into a bar like that, couldn't you just walk back out?" Very, very weird post -- but not one I'd call hateful in the least.

I'd prefer not to end up in a sports bar, but that doesn't mean I HATE all sportslovers. I also would feel out of place if I entered a lunch place completely filled with little old ladies in hats having tea, but that sure doesn't mean I HATE little old ladies in hats. How silly to suggest that someone saying they might feel out of place means they HATE the people there.

Meanwhile a click on Buzzy's name seems to indicate she is no longer registered here -- either by her choice or the editors' choice. Sign of a troll -- perhaps a regular poster who temporarily registered a new name to be provocative?

IMO it is hardly a provocative post, not enough to warrant a new screen name to post it or leaving the forum over the replies. I'm guessing Buzzy went elsewhere because things were not quite the answers and the tone she was hoping for.

All well and good to ask about gay people, until gay people start questioning your questions?

suze, have you read all the posts here? Obviously there were plenty of people including those saying the original post was filled with hate who DID think it was provocative.

But let's be honest. Why did Buzzy come here and register just to post this? She said she's looking for apartments in Paris. Wouldn't it be logical that she might have posted on one of those many Paris apartment threads? If she's trying to decide between apartments near Notre Dame or in the Marais, wouldn't it seem MORE logical or meaningful if she had posted links to those and asked for opinions as countless other new posters do? Or posted about one of her Rome issues? Or anything else about the trip besides this? It sure seems like a very odd first and only post from anyone getting ready to go to Europe.

For that matter, how many brand new posters would refer to us all as "Fodorites"? It was ages before I learned that term. Just another reason I think there was more to this post than simply someone coming here for the first time and asking a serious question.

Wekiva: I live in Paris. Not so strange. And you don't see anything wrong with Buzzy's post yet see mine as hateful?

Uh huh.

Neo: here's a suggestion. Why don't you cut her posts and paste it in the gay and lesbian thread. I think it would be interesting to see what happens.

The fact that Buzzy is gone suggests the original post was a put-on. As I had suggested.

But I'm glad you don't see anything wrong with any of this. I'll turn a blind eye too and we can all live in bliss.

Just one last thought.

The original post said this:

"This must really sound offensive"

Why would she write that? She herself recognized she was being offensive. Why don't Neo, Wekiva and suze recognize it?

I'm confused. But not for the last time, no doubt.

And Wekiva, I suppose I take your point. I am being intolerant of her intolerance. Like Voltaire said: the only think I hate is hatred (sounds better in French).

ruechapon

You know...as neat as forums are this is a good example of how forums can send people down the wrong path quickly. I try to say what I mean and you take it the wrong way. This would be much more clear in person! :)

You were the one who said "in my opinion she's free to hate whomever she wants" My point was that just because she didn't want to be surrounded by them didn't mean she hated them. It seemed you thought differently. I never meant to imply there was hatred in your posts. But it's late and I'm tired. Too much to worry about already for tomorrow than continue arguing.

You are lucky to live in Paris. I love that city and have only been able to get there twice. Hope to get back some day.

ruechapon, you surely do like focusing on a single phrase and taking it to the nth degree. Yet, you chose not to comment on my simple comparisons of little old ladies in hats or sportslovers. Where do you see my hate in not feeling comfortable in places dominated by those groups?

Meanwhile I assume the statement that started out directed to me shifted gears by the time you said "But I'm glad you don't see anything wrong with any of this." I clearly stated I found the whole post "weird". I just don't see someone being uncomfortable in a situation surrounded by people different from themselves as being a clear statement of "HATRED".

Blimey, is this still going on?

ruechapon, I see the OP (if not a troll) as incredibly silly and naive not hateful. She painted a fairly colorful picture of Docker-panted American tourists ending up in the middle of a gay disco in Paris by mistake. It's funny.

Besides her husband being a homophobic catholic (hardly the first) I read this as harmless.

Hey, Suze, watch the anti-Docker bias!!

Thanks for the responses Neo, Wekiva and suze. My point is only this: I was offended by the original post. I thought it bespoke a sort of homophobia which offended me. To me homophobia is hateful. So, therefore to me the post had the whiff of hate about it.

I don't ask or expect that you see it my way. But I didn't think it was out of the realm of possibility that someone (me) might have been offended by the OP -- as the poster/troll realized it would be. I certainly didn't mean to be hateful in response to the OP but if fodor-folk take my response to be hateful then so be it. It doesn't bother me to be thought of as someone who hates hatred.

We all agree that the OP was weird and probably written to be provacative if not down right nasty.

My other point in all this was that I not only found the OP weird but also found the response of some fodor people to be weird too (when they said things like "There's nothing wrong with your post" etc).

"What this thread demonstrates is that there are questions you can ask sincerely of a friend or associate that a public forum will misunderstand. Hereabouts you might ask "Which rental car company do you prefer in Italy?" and half your reponses might be along the lines of, "YOU'D HAVE TO BE CRAZY TO DRIVE IN ITALY!"

to the point!!!tomassocroccante you have a knack of expressing yourself well