that's very interesting GP - a good example of the locals extracting from an import the features that they like and discarding the rest.

I wish that my fellow Cornwallians were as discerning. Truro [the county town, which despite having only 20,00 inhabitants is actually a city] is heaving with chain coffee shops - Starbucks, Costs, Nero - we've got them all. Few of my friends and colleagues patronise them, preferring the independently owned places that also abound. Perhaps they are kept afloat by the tourists who descend upon us every summer. Last time I strayed into Costa [only because it's the closest cafe to my office] the staff were so busy complaining about their working conditions that they forgot to serve me.

Starbucks coffee machines are made in Weggis, Switzerland, by Thermoplan. I am a fan of Swiss quality but I have to agree with many that Starbucks coffee quality could be better. I had a Starbucks coffee in London and it tasted burnt. Yuck.

I think burnt coffee is not the fault of the product - it's the fault of the operator/barista ('barista' - a term I dislike as in Italy it involves more than just making coffee) who don't operate their equipment properly and don't have adequate training. Most primary product - coffee beans - come from South America/Central America so I'm sure Starbucks don't have their very own coffee plantation/s which are all bad beans. Correct me if I am wrong.

This is like saying KFC make 'bad chicken' because they have a global name/reputation. There appears to be a universal snobbery when it comes to global food brands. I think KFC make make great chicken - many would disagre. Starbucks have made me good coffee in the few times I have asked for an espresso. I don't understand the sugary caramel latte business but hey, that's not real coffee to me and you sure can't get a caramel latte in Italy.

Edit to above post 'you sure can't get a caramel latte in my Naples home or any place in Rome where I spend a lot of time'

Edit to above post 'you sure can't get a caramel latte in my Naples home or any place in Rome where I spend a lot of time'>

Sounds like they need a Starbucks then!

Why are Starbucks not present in Italy? the Italians prefer home grown fraudsters.
Anger as Starbucks boss says: We may not pay UK tax for up to three years
Chief Executive Mark Fox said chain aimed to be profitable by 2017
Mr Fox insisted there was 'nothing abnormal' about the way firm was run
Starbucks slated in 2012 after paying just £8.6m in tax on £3bn of sales
Coffee chain remains under investigation by the European Commission
It volunteered to pay £20 million tax payment in 2012 after complaints


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3oiaHTp5d
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

A current thread says Starbucks is opening soon in Milan - foot in the door - they could do like McDonalds who was stymied by local authorities and just buy a chain of caffes - McDonalds bought out Burghy - think that was the name of an Italian burger chain - and in one fell swoop entered the Italian market big time - had a few places before like in Rome that were and are always very popular when I've been in them.

PalenQ - I wrote the other thread.

There is a big difference between Starbucks and McDonalds and that relates to pricing.

McDonalds operates in a very competitive market and appreciated that their pricing needs to reflect that.

In Italy an espresso (in a proper espresso cup which is generally warm to start with) sells at roughly 1 Euro in the north of Italy and generally gets cheaper the further south one travels. I hardly think that Starbucks will sell at these prices.

A bar in Italy will not charge for an espresso lungo - an espresso with a little more water whereas Starbucks does.

Also in Italy there is an approach to coffe quite different to the Starbucks culture. People will choose one bar over another because they serve Illy, rather than Lavazzo rather than Segafredo rather than .... Also they will know that one bar can serve Illy better than another Illy bar, etc etc. Even they will know that one barista is better at making their coffee rather than another.

This extends to many other products and "servers". Some places have better prosciutto than others and some servers can cut it better than others.

Starbucks will never be able to match this competence.

Also they will not be able to mess around with the Italian tax authorities as they have done in the UK, Ireland and elsewhere.

I'm not taking stands but folks go to Starbucks here and in London and other European cities not just for coffee but a nice place to sit and rest or read or study with free WI-FI - for their ambience that I see lacking in may Italian caffe where typically it seems locals come in belly up to the counter get an expresso and in one fell swoop gulp it down and are gone. Coffee is not the main draw at many.

PalenQ - I think that you do not understand Italian coffee culture which, apart from the pricing, varies from one region to another.

I'm thinking of Starbucks attracting foreign tourists in places like Rome and Florence - it's a novel thing for Italians just to go to a cafe and red the paper, linger, study, etc.? Again it ain't the coffee that makes Starbucks so popular everywhere else in Europe - I think Italy is not that unique or are there caffes where people come and sit for hours - not even having to buy anything if not wanting to?

If Starbucks can make it in France and Austria it can in Italy - as a niche and something unique - do Italian caffes have free WI-FI where folks can stay for hours - maybe so I do not claim to know much about the Italian coffee culture - just that I love Cappuccinos even in the afternoon - sacrilege I've been told?

We saw a dunkin dunuts in Nuremberg. It was not there two years ago. I just think there are so many better places to get coffee but I am a latte drinker with a tiny bit of sugar. Those calorie laden coffee drinks are not really coffee to me. I go to Costa if I need a bathroom. Your code for the bathroom door is on your receipt.

I guess, Italian people are just refusing any modernity. They deeply believe that: They have the most beautiful country in the world, the best food, the best women and men, the best culture ans so forth.
And of course they believe they make the best coffee in the world, for them our life style is just rednecks attitude. But not only they also refuse nearly anything coming from Asia, Africa etc. But for them the worst are American people, English spoken countries and some other European countries like Germany, Austria, France, Belgium, Netherlands and for sure Nordic countries etc.
Just leave away their stupid espresso.

Happy new year to all of you.

gooresh - registered December 2015.

Frankly that says it all.

Frankly that says it all.>

Says what that the observor's points are not IMO mainly well taken though I do not necessarily agree with many of them but some for sure - maybe someone not registered was reading Fodor's for a while and never saw something they wanted to comment on.

Ah conspiracy theorists seeing conspiracies all around - what do you think was the 'real' intention of this new poster - are new posters always subject to doubt when they make their first post?

so Question for nochblad- what do you mean 'says it all' - you imply some impropriety so what is it?

Italy fought long to keep McDonalds out and the ballyhooed 'Slow Food' movement has kept them and other foreign chains out of many slow food towns - McDonalds had to come in the back door by buying the domestic Burghy fast-food chain, in one fell swoop and is now extremely popular in Italy - keeping Starbucks out is the same - let them come in and flop or more likely take a share of the coffee market from local caffes - if a country has to protect its culture thru banning foreign competition then that culture is not worth saving IMO.

That said I love Italian coffee, especially cappuccino which I even sacrilegiously order in the afternoon!

Let the free market work and give Italian young folk the chance to be like the rest of the world!

Your ignorance, presumptuousness and grammar are beyond bounds.

nochblad - answer what you mean by 'that says it all' - what does it say - enlighten my ignorance with your presumed presumptuousness!

Easy to make charges with a simple attack - hard to explain why it 'says it all.'

I expect no answer and that is very telling.

do you do this to all first-time posters?

I think you owe the OP an apology or explanation or both!

gooresh is indeed a new member and, I suspect not one who has english as her/his first language. So we should cut some slack and and forgive, even a dislike of expresso!

yes and not make pre-judgments of sinister intents! I rather think that if gooresh said something nochblad agreed with he/she/it would have not made that accusation of not passing the smell test.

Too often new members IMO get chased away by IMO often rude Fodorgarchs and Fodor's is of course hurt by this as new posters are no doubt the economical life of the whole site.

Exactly Pal. Stop running off newbies. If English is their second language they do hell of a better job than I writing Italian.

We have a starbucks on every corner and if I am paying that much for coffee then I want it in a real coffee cup with my latte swirled, can sit and enjoy it.

WaWa is my coffee place.

I was not criticising the newbee's English.

What I particularly object to is the wish to impose on Italy something they find at home which they think is superior, better or whatever. This seems to crop up most frequently with regard to Starbucks. I think they will have a huge problem in penetrating Italy apart from select locations where there is a degree of international traffic. Principally their problem is an inferior product sold at an outrageous price in comparison with what bars offer in Italy.

Also I dispute that Italy does not accept modernity. On the contrary it is still one of the most creative and inventive countries in the world. Consider the modern architecture, the fashion industry, the vast number of modern artists etc. In business there are many world leaders but mostly in specialized fields (e.g. Brembo brakes) so due to their specialization or size are not widely known to the general public.

In supermarket opening hours, for example, there is far greater flexibility than in Germany and even the UK.

I would think that the Starbucks marketing staff just cannot figure out how to deal with Italians going into fits of hysterical laughter when seeing the ridiculous Italianesque names they have given the products they sell.

Having been to a Starbucks once, ( I had tea) I was amused to see that they now want you to give them a name they can write on their cups and call out so you get the right cup.

I understand that the name "Starbucks doesn't pay enough tax" is now a popular name in the UK

bilboburger - you are a great contributor to Fodors but you should not use the word cups when referring to Starbucks coffee, at least in the Italy forum.

As you surely know espresso is served in cups which are already warm - espresso machines generally have a space on top for them. In addition, the cup design is an issue of great debate and Illy, for example, has invested a lot of time and money in developping the perfect cup.

What Starbucks offers is just a container.

noch, you are right (and too kind), I claim my ignorance is down to only using them once.

On the subject of cups, I discovered a beautiful cup in france in 2015 which holds two espresso full shots, it fits perfectly in the palm of one hand so you don't have to do the whole pinky thing and had me giggling with delight (not by illy which is not a name to conjure with in the UK) more for the hand feel than its contents. Since you have reminded me I have found a similar https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=es...cYvmrjweFGM%3A

I've also played around with different glasses for different wines ( I hold a Diploma in wine tasting for my sins) and have concluded any "results" are bogus. The international tasting glass is the best to use, followed (for fun) by the same in black glass :-)

bilboburgler - the first time I ever tasted Starbucks coffee was in Dublin (Harcourt Street corder Adelaide Road). Quite disgusting. Then I discovered - just across the road - The Art of Coffee. Far superior without the pretence.

The hardest thing outside of Italy is to convince the barman - or whatever he/she should be called - to limit the amount of water in the cup. Esentially an espresso should fill half a cup or even less. A ristretto is about a quarter of a cup. The machines can be regulated so frequently outside of Italy the quantity of water is greater than in an Italian espresso. Often I have been met with incredulity when I have asked the barman to pull away the cup when the liquid stream was still running.

Wine tasting - you have opened up a whole new field! If you are in the UK one of the greatest opportunities of wine tasting are the pre-auction tastings at Christies and Sothebys.

I am not sure what the situation is now but in the early seventies I went to a number of pre-auction tastings. My highlights were the opportunity to taste a wine of the 1800's - yes, for free at Christies in King Street. As well as a tasting of the 1970 vintage. I had the opportunity to taste all of the top growths including Mouton, plus Cheval Blanc, Ausone etc. I had the opportunity to taste the differences between the various Chateaux - not just read about them.

To [misquote] the divine Oscar - I have never been in a Starbucks!

Nochblad - I think that you underestimate some UK baristas - I have certainly had expressos here that take up less than half of the cup and have a good crema on top as well.

annhig - I would agree but not in a Starbucks or a Costa. But as you say - some UK baristas. And especially harder to find outside of London.

And especially harder to find outside of London.>>

some have even made it to Cornwall:

http://www.westbriton.co.uk/Cornish-...ail/story.html

Sadly I haven't been able to find out if they repeated the competition in 2014 or 2015.

I have to admit that I have never set foot in a Starbucks either -- or any of the copies of same, of which there are quite a few in France (Columbus Café, etc.).

I am just not much of a coffee drinker.

Starbucks has put a lot of emphasis on making sure the poor peasants in central America who pick the beans, etc get a decent wage and professes to only buy from sustainable producers, etc - not sure of exact details but do Italian caffes pay the same attention to such matters?

You may not like Starbucks but to diss it as worthless coffee is pure food snobbism IMO - as exemplified to the hilt by nochblad and others.

Starbucks has put a lot lot lot of money into perfecting the beans they use and brewing technique - folks who say Starbucks coffee is the dregs obviously have never ever tasted Starbucks primo coffees, whose beans are also a favorite with many to make at home.

Wonder if the OP will check back in?

Starbucks is overpriced, burnt coffee the world over. I will never understand why anyone would choose to buy it in Europe, or much of anywhere else, where there is already so much actually good coffee. I don't care what their employee/supplier practices are - their coffee sucks. I'll pay a local to make me a good coffee anytime.

StCirq- so you've been to Starbucks and tasted their coffees - have you seen the thronged Starbucks all over Europe, including Paris - you think all those folks are clueless dolts? Well I think that term may more belong to you than them.

Overpriced maybe but burnt - that is just not true - you exemplify the coffee/food snob I was talking about above. Probably never been in a Starbucks to boot?

You do not get to be the world's premier coffee seller if you have just burnt coffee - again next time you get out of Dordogneshire and into the real France look at just how crowded those Starbucks are with mainly young French folks in them.

Cheers! Happy New Year - your next Starbucks' cuppa is on moi.

BTW I've had many a mediocre cafe coffee in France.

All McDonald's restaurants in Switzerland have revamped their interior design to include a McCafe. They've also reduced their menu selection by omitting all McWraps. I suspect this move was made because McDonald's wants to compete directly with Starbucks.

Just last week, I was in a Chur McDonald's where I stated my dissatisfaction about the lack of McWraps. The employee admitted that many other customers had complained as well. The coffee, on the other hand, was satisfactory although the cheesecake was disappointingly bland.

I can't speak for Starbucks' offerings but I always find Costa's coffee very harsh, presumably because they use robusta beans, rather than arabica, which are dearer. It could also have something to do with the way they are roasted, but not being an expert, I just know that I don't like it.

The coffee, on the other hand, was satisfactory although the cheesecake was disappointingly bland>

Mcds has put a lot of effort into making good Italian-like coffee, right from machines used in Italy to the method of brewing, etc.

Italians are worried about crappy coffee with Starbucks? Well maybe Italian food snobs should look into the Mafia's intrusion into the food sector - as a Sixty Minutes segment detailed last night on just how the Italian Mafioso have a huge presence in the food sector - from silently owning thousands of restaurants and also things like Olive Oil, which the segment dwelt on - saying 50% of the Extra Virgin Olive Oil sold in Italy does not meet the criteria and 75-80% of that Italian Extra Virgin Olive Oil is not really worthy of having the extra virgin label.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minut...ia-food-fraud/

So besides being worried about Starbucks somehow tarnishing the country's food image perhaps Italians should take a better look at how their Mafioso is doing damage to the ballyhooed Italian mania for 'slow food'!

That was interesting PalenQ, and something I have heard about before. I think Italians are plenty worried about the Mafia for many reasons and the fake food is a big one.

I don't know if they are worried about Starbucks tarnishing their food image so much as wondering why they would need it. Young Italians might flock to it at first as it would be different and American and perceived as therefore being cool maybe. But for the most part there is good coffee everywhere there already so why would you want Starbucks in Italy?

In Australia Starbucks was a big flop because they have such a well established coffee culture and really you are spoiled for choice there for an excellent coffee, something I really miss. Australian teens liked Starbucks but nobody else did.

I am not a big fan of Starbucks but will go there once in a while now since they brought in the flat white which they got from Australia, and it is quite good at Starbucks.

Starbucks is yes much more than coffee - it's the stmosphere - young folks like to sit around reading or studying- not sure the typical small Italian caffe is so conducive to that.

Hello everyone,

Yes, it was my first post.
Yes, I'm reading Fodors for a while.
Yes, English is not my mother tongue (Thanks for having noticed that and raised it as a problem...) I'd like to know how many languages are you speaking and writing..
Anyway, again: Happy new year (In case you did not read all my post..) In my country there are certain rules of good manners.
And Yes, it will be my last post.

From a dude migrant who spent 3 years of his life in Italy and who maybe is now living in your own country... Who knows...

Have nice writing.. In English.
PS: I like your language, but stop to bash anyone who is not fully English spoken. The migrant speaks 4 languages.

So bye.