No smoking in Paris restaurants - is it working?
 

After falling in love with the city upon our first stay in Paris last fall, we plan to return someday. Besides the falling dollar, about the only thing we weren't crazy about was the incessant smoking in just about every restaurant we visited.

I am curious - is the new ban being enforced? I can hardly imagine that all the heavily addicted smokers are minding the new law, but hopefully it is a step in the right direction.

These posts always amaze me. I've made more than 100 trips to Paris over more than 30 years, watched the public attitude about smoking go through many changes, but I've never encountered anything even remotely like "incessant smoking in just about every restaurant."

I understand people find smoking in restaurants unpleasant. Have no quibble with that. But statements like this just seem so over-the-top to me, and do not fit in with my experience.

Well, St. Cirq, that's what's really wonderful about this site, and about the good old USA...we enjoy freedom of speech. Perhaps to scdreamer, the smoking feels "incessant" and, as you put it, "over the top." As a non-smoker who has visited Paris, I too, was really put off by the amount of cigarette smoke "period." American tobacco companies have nothing to worry about as long as European folks continue to puff away. Of course, all of this is IMO.

StCirq - it really did seem as if each of the neighborhood restaurants we frequented during the eight days we were in Paris were filled with smokers. I travel quite a bit - and I am used to spending time in countries where smoking is more commonplace than where I live (California), but it really did seem over the top in Paris.

Perhaps you patronize a different type of restaurant than we did - we were staying in an older apartment in the Montmartre and had most of our meals at smaller neighborhood places. We were almost always surrounded by other diners who were lighting up throughout the meal. In fact, other than a particular restaurant we deliberately chose because it was smoke-free, I think we sat next to smokers at every meal out.

Anyway ... I guess we differ in our opinion of how widespread smoking is/was in Paris restaurants, but I am still interested to know how the new ban is holding up ...

As the mother of a child with severe allergic reactions to smoke, I am always very aware of the level of smoke in any establishment. We have often walked out of places if we felt it would be too difficult for him.

While his reactions have lessened over the years (he is now a teenager), I was still very worried on our recent trip to Italy, but there is now no smoking in restaurants and it was quite nice to be able to go in and not have to worry about my son having problems.

scdreamer - cannot speak for Paris, but Rome was having no trouble enforcing the law in the places we went.

As an aside - several years ago in Salzburg, my son was having some real problems because of the smoke. A young woman at the table next to us noticed his coughing and red, watery eyes and immediately got her 3 companions to put out their cigarettes. It made such a huge difference. On our way out, we stopped, thanked them, and bought them a round of drinks. That's the 1st and only time that has ever happened to us.

Ah California... that speaks volumes.

Well, my typical dining experiences in Paris are in neighborhood bistros and places where locals congregate, not fancy places where you'd be likely to find lots of well-heeled tourists, and I still maintain I've never experienced what you have. I do think most non-smoking Californians go ape-shit if there's a single smoker within a mile. I know...my daughter's an athlete at Berkeley and she's the worst offender when it comes to griping about smoking in Paris. Or anywhere for that matter. It's one of the downsides of having sent her to college in California.

I don't have an issue with people who are allergic to cigarette smoke. I understand it's a health hazard that needs to be addressed when traveling. I just can't buy the OMG we couldn't escape the smoke in Paris thing...particularly by Californians. I almost was going to suggest in my first post that the OP was from California. I spend a lot of time in that state, and you guys are just so righteous about health and lifestyle choices. Why you do that and live in a state that's going to be earthquaked into the ocean is beyond me.

Umph...umph...umph...what a pleasant comment. And I don't know what restaurants are not smokey in Paris. I've also been going there for 30-plus years and they have always been smokey. The owner of the vegetarian/macro restaurant I go to even smokes at the counter as do the customers. So, let's just call it what it is...smokey. Happy Travels...from another Californian.

Have any of the posters been to Paris since the first of this year? This is really the question. I know it <i>was</i> pretty smokey in Paris restaurants but did it clear the air since January 2nd?

In the Mediterranean area, the smoking has stopped in bars and restaurants, as far as I can see. The fines are very steep so many smokers decided to stand outside during the day. Even owners of these bars, cafes, and restaurants try to prevent people from smoking inside.

So, can give a local Parisian tell us if it's changed?

Blackduff

&quot;Ah California... that speaks volumes&quot; speaks volumes.

Is your daughter so susceptible to outside influences that after only two or three years in California she completely abandoned the values you instilled in her and suddenly became one of the dreaded &quot;Californians?&quot; That is, of course, if one's opinion about smoking can be considered a value. You sure seem to act like it is.

Maybe the fact that she's an athlete is what's made her so riled up about smoking. Or maybe it was just such a shock to finally be able to breathe fresh air that she turned all radical on you.

Happy travels from another Californian. (One of thirty-seven million people who all think and act the same.)

Hubby and I were in Paris Dec. 26 through Jan. 8 and, after seeing how people in our own town became absolute crybabies over the ban that took place here, we totally expected Parisians to just ignore the ban.

Sorry, Parisians, I had you wrong. The signs were all up in the restos on Jan. 1 and we saw NO ONE ignoring them (note: we ate in neighborhood places, among locals). Ashtrays were gone and people were still taking loooonnnggg meals. The exception: the sidewalk tables that were under plastic DID allow smokers and you had to walk the gauntlet to get inside. At one place in particular, it was a bit thick, since there aren't fans or smoke-eaters up yet.

I'd be interested to hear from those who've been there since then.

I'd be interested

Perhaps it does make a difference if one comes from an area where one does not have to deal with second hand smoke.

NOBODY smokes where I come from ( if they do they must hide it far away from others) so smoking in Paris and all over Europe does seem &quot; incessant&quot; in every restaurant and every where. It is mind blowing.

I usually love your comments StCirq, but it seems this one is an over reaction, perhaps because of your daughter dislike of Paris smoke or are you a smoker?

Children are particularly vulnerable to second hand smoke ,but it is almost as bad as smoking even for adults and can cause cancer, heart disease and other fun things.

Traveling with a child is quite scary in Europe and I worry about how much smoke my child has been exposed to since we left California. We try to avoid it as much as possible, but it is every where and they seem oblivious to the harm it does.( Even in countries where it is not allowed in restaurants).

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/sec...-smoke/CC00023

I am appalled at the smoking in Europe, ESPECIALLY around children. The teachers at my child's school smoke next to the children in the playground and parents blow smoke in their babies faces in their prams. YUCK! Don't they read???

WHAT are they thinking? It is dangerous, life threatening and a filthy habit that can be broken. The fact is smoking HURTS other people and I can see no reason what so every to argue for it. The only people who win from smoking are the big tobacco companies.

I had a friend that was high and mighty about her right to smoke and angered by those who asked her to stop. She now is dealing with lung cancer in her 50's which is a horrible way to die.

It is shocking that Europeans are so far behind the times with smoking and a major problem. Every cigarette does damage and second hand smoke is almost as bad as smoking.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/398563/quit_smoking/

I hope things do get better in Paris and all over Europe. It is about time they wise up about the harm of smoking. I love Europe, but the endless smoking is just plain stupid and harmful.

Californians are not right about everything, but they are right about smoking. Once you are use to living in clean air, it is very hard to take the smoke. Second hand smoke KILLS! Smoking kills half-a-million people each year in the European Union. How can one argue for it???

http://www.euro.who.int/mediacentre/PR/2001/20010909_4

I have to admit that as a French resident I agree with St Cirq. We have watched the amount of smoking diminish greatly in the 14 years we have lived here. When we arrived all our friends smoked, and now virtually none of them do - and none would smoke when visiting, a real revolution. I am asthmatic and particularly susceptible.

I don't see why people wouldn't be enforcing the ban. the fines on owners is much heavier than on the smokers themselves. Even having an ashtray on the table makes you liable to a heavy fine.

In fact we arrived in South Africa on the 18th, and were immediately surprised at the number of people smoking in public places- unknown in France for the last year. Guess we've been spoiled!

I think we should open a new segment to address the non-smoking issue in every country on this planet since it's always the same fight.

1. Non-smoking laws get commented from the day they are planned to the day they are implemented, which usually takes a year or more. Always the same fuss-making and guessing if the Italians, the Spaniards, the French, or the Molvanians will or won't ignore the law. Threads like this pop up like mushrooms: Only 9 months to go, will the cafes in Paris be smoke-less? Only 6 months to go, will the cafes.. and so on.
Finally, the law gets implemented. Heavy fines await especially the owners of restaurants if they should let anyone smoke. And, wonder of wonders, no one smokes in a restaurant.

Yes, you have the right to any opinion, and you can express it here. But it remains a somewhat futile discussion as if the non-smokers expect riots in the streets, burning cars in the banlieue, or some other violent reaction. Not in Rome, not in Paris, not in Dublin, not in Munich (well, there have been some protests ;-) -- but from an overall perspective, it has always been the rather boring and much in advance known implementation of a law.

2. I get somewhat nerved by the super nanny attitude of SOME or a few of the foreign visitors who regard their home country as the ultimate safe haven for non-smokers, while in fact, the legal situation in the US is much more a patchwork of some very strict and uniform state-wide legislation vs. a multitude of community-oriented ordinances that no outsider can even guess in advance.
Will there be smoke if the place is a bar that serves food, or no food, or some food. Are there exemptions for casinos, or can I even smoke in a restaurant, and so on...

Even California residents must admit that the axis of the smokey evil can begin on the other side of the stateline.

If smoke is your problem, visit Bavaria!
Total ban in place since January 1, 2008!
No exemptions for any indoor place. Same 100% ban for cafes, restaurants, bars, beer halls, night clubs, no matter if they serve food or not. No seperate smoking rooms allowed.
Only two or three known incidents of violation since Jan 1 - so rare that it even got in the paper.

With regard to Paris again:
I have heard that non-smokers are much more obsessed about what their next person does. So I suspect that the &quot;new&quot; non-smoking patrons of the Paris restos and cafes will be much more sneering than the former permissive drug abusers at any foreigner daring to enter a cafe in Paris with the wrong shoes on. Also those who are not that able to pick the correct and fashionable attire can no longer hope that an incessant smoke screen will graciously disguise their lack of style.

OMG --- I see exciting threads on the horizon... LOL

Carlux - Please define &quot;Public Places&quot; for ths South African!?

I never see anyone light up in a restaurant except if it is in the glassed-off section with seperate airconditioning or out in the open air section (terrace).
Nobody would dare to smoke in a shopping mall, office etc.

One very dangerous practice South Africans do do, is to smoke on the forecourt of filling stations, ignoring any &quot;NO SMOKING&quot; signs!
When I have complained about being in danger of being blown to bits, the staff say they are told by the offenders to 'go to hell' (I am putting it politely) and are totally ignored.

Yea for Bavaria ...there is hope for Europe!

It is good to hear Carlux that smoking is down in Paris. I lived in Europe 30 years ago and there was endless smoking then and to me it feels just as bad today. It is truly mind blowing with the proof we have today.

I am truly amazed there are so many smokers since the bottom line is &quot;There are no safe levels of environmental smoke&quot; and &quot;WHO guidelines clearly shows that chronic exposure to ETS, also known as passive smoking, significantly increases health risks and premature deaths in nonsmokers&quot;.

Children and babies are even more vulnerable , so those smokers are not only killing themselves, but also are harming those around them, including
children. The CHILDREN and babies is my big trigger and it makes me cringe to see so many smoking around them, totally unaware about the severe harm.

The Surgeon General has concluded that there is NO risk-free level of secondhand smoke exposure. Even brief exposures can be harmful. I wonder how many of these kids will end up with cancer or other problems, which they are at a much higher risk for.

So why shouldn't everyone be going &quot;ape-shit&quot; about the harm that it is doing? Why are there not more restrictions to stop people from doing something that is harming them and all those that they smoke around and are particularly harmful to children?


Secondhand smoke contains more than 250 chemicals known to be toxic or carcinogenic (cancer-causing). I just can not see any reason to support smoking which harms all.

I suppose it is all relative. If you are a smoker or come from a place where lots of people smoke, perhaps one adjusts to this as normal and can be aware that there is a decrease in smoking in Paris.

If you have lived for years in an area where nobody smokes at all and you almost forget there is such a thing,You take it as your right to breath fresh air and that your young vulnerable child should have a right to not be regularly exposed to cancer producing smoke.

It is gross to go to Europe and see so many smokers in this day and age. It is my biggest pet peeve about Europe and makes me endlessly curious as to why they do not do more to stop it.

Perhaps it is on its way out, but it does not appear that way to a Californian who has been traveling all over Europe for almost 17 months.

I am glad that it is better, but it has a looooong way to go.

Seems to me it was the airport here in Cape Town. Since then I haven't noticed much, but certainly in the first few minutes we seemed to notice it. Or was this just jet lag?

WTnow.. in free societies, people are free to do stupid things.

Stupid parents smoke, and especially stupid parents smoke with their kids in the same room.

Other stupid parents super-size their kids four times a week at McD. Some caring mothers love their SUVs because it protects THEIR kids, while they will most likely kill any OTHER kid when they hit it in an accident, much more likely than with a regular sedan. Some parents let their kids play with guns and go hunting. Especially stupid parents get their kids on priscription drugs for any minor fit they throw. Other parents move to big cities to get better jobs, where their kids are more likely to join a gang, get drugs at school, or get shot in the streets than their counterparts in rural areas. Some people live near nuclear power plants, and think that is safe.

If man was a creature governed by reason, there would be no rehab clinics, cigarettes, law firms, SUVs, or anyone building a house near the San Andreas Fault.

One person's &quot;stupid&quot; is another person's &quot;nothing wrong with it.&quot;

&lt;Even California residents must admit that the axis of the smokey evil can begin on the other side of the stateline.

Perhaps, but it is a big state. . roughly from London to Rome or London to Vienna...so many never get to that state line.

http://www.uta.fi/FAST/US2/REF/MAPS/euro-cal.html


We are not allergic per se to smoke, but it always makes us cough and eyes tear up ( my young daughter especially). Once one is used to the freedom of breathing fresh air, it is hard to go backwards.

&lt;I am curious - is the new ban being enforced? I can hardly imagine that all the heavily addicted smokers are minding the new law, but hopefully it is a step in the right direction.&gt;

Could someone out there please answer the original question????
dave

Yes, the original question! I would like a real answer myself. This attack on people who ask an innocent question is the reason why I am apprehensive when it comes to posting anything. Why does this forum have to get so mean. Lighten up.

I'll let you know - I am headed to Paris and then Dinard in Bretagne for a thalassotherapy spa tomorrow from smokey Lausanne, Switzerland, where the European HQs of Philip Morris, B.A.T. and Japan Tobacco are located (cough, cough....!)

I remember this same question about Ireland and pubs. Would it work and all. It did. Everyone is always so sure there's some nationality that will not cooperate. Seems like there's some sort of hidden vicarious hope in some that it might just be the citizens of our favorite country who are rebel enough to put up just a little fight against the ol' rules and regs. But no....

I completely agree with restrictions that bans smoking in enclosed public areas. I've had numerous times when you're 5 minutes into a meal and the cloud starts to form. Keep your smoke to yourself.

<i>Why are there not more restrictions to stop people from doing something that is harming them </i>

WTNow, I can see the smoking issue is something you feel strongly about and not without reason. But the statement above is where you lose a lot of us. It's one thing to protect yourself from &quot;me&quot;. However, it's gone beyond the spirit of freedom and in treating the rest of us as fellow adults, in my opinion, when you decide to protect *me* from me. Anyway, blah, blah, blah from me... no one ever agrees on this stuff. Hey, how's the trips going? Did I read y'all were trying to sneak into Russia? haha

ps - I'm not saying all 37 million Californians get that wild look in their eye over a bit of tobacco, but at least 36.5 mil of them do. ;)

Don't know about Paris, but was in Lyon last weekend (where the proportion of smokers must be about the same) and everybody was observing the ban.

No smoking in any of the restaurants or bars we went to, and smokers had to go outside to have a cigarette. A few places had outdoor tables where smokers were congregating, while in other places they just hovered on the pavement.

I can't see why it would be any different Paris.

Well, Clifton,

Here is my whole statement:

&quot;Why are there not more restrictions to stop people from doing something that is harming them and all those that they smoke around and are particularly harmful to children? &quot;

I was clear to mention how it harms ALL and especially children which is my big concern. I would be less concerned if it was only hurting the adult who smokes.

Truly if anyone does ANY reading on the effects of smoking one can not help but admit that it truly is stupid. It is not just a bad habit, it harms ALL in MANY ways. Second hand smoke can be MORE dangerous than smoking.

It also costs a fortune to take care of all the people who have repercussions from the smoking ( 1st and 2nd hand) which impacts all.

It really is about education and I do not think they do enough education about it in Europe, so many think of it as just a harmless choice. I have read where 99% of Americans are aware of the harm of smoking but only 73% in Germany know it is harmful! WOW! That is PURE education.

Usually more educated people and people with a higher income do not smoke as much as poor people. ( Not saying it is only poor people who smoke). I am not upset with the poor people that get addicted to this horrible habit that fight for their weakness, but the endless campaigns by Big Tobacco companies that prey on peoples ignorance and health policies that do not inform their public about the harm. One sees so many young people smoking in Europe which is especially sad.

As smoker Jack Nickolson recently said &quot; It is death by stupidity&quot;. There really is no reason to defend this killer in my mind. If smokers could do it without polluting ALL of us, that would be another thing entirely. There just is no level of passive smoke that is not harmful.

Trips going well and I realize that much of the world will continue their addiction to cigarettes and we will have to do the best we can with that fact of life.

I do miss fresh air! ;)

As a special service from your friendly smoking European hosts, here a - hopefully up-to-date - list of the Old World's countries, ranked by the current status of legislation. I hope this offers some sincere consolation who think that this forum is always sooo mean ;-)


No smoking in restaurants, bars, cafes, no exemptions:

Croatia
France
Germany (States of Bavaria, Mecklenburg-Vorpommern)
Ireland
Iceland
Liechtenstein
Sweden
Switzerland (canton Ticino, other cantons are said to follow soon)
UK (not sure about NI, though)

===================================

Restricted smoking (seperate smoking rooms, either smoking or non-smoking unless larger in size than x square meters, etc.)

Belgium (only restaurants)
Denmark
Germany (all other states not mentioned above, seperate smoking rooms must be smaller than the main room of the restaurant or cafe, in some states no service personnel in smoking rooms)
Italy (legal requirements for smoking rooms usually too expensive, so more like a total ban than a real exemption)
Latvia
Luxemburg
Norway (exemptions for &quot;events&quot; in cafes or restaurants)
Portugal
Spain

================================

No restrictions

Austria
Czech Republic
Hungary (restrictions apply, but restaurateurs can easily avoid them)

Netherlands -- not sure about the situation.

I am all for a smoking ban, but it so often just forces the smokers to an outside table (if it is allowed). I LOVE to eat outside, so I am often surrounded by many more smokers that if there were no ban.

Ban it in and OUT!

I would appreciate it if foreigners did not nanny me in my home country and let me smoke on an outdoor terrace, while every American can expect me not to pester him or her on his or her way of life or habits.

If the government tried to ban personal firearms in the United States, would the ban be accepted just as readily?

Celiaanne
If smoking had banned everywhere, what taxes will increase. Also, how about all of the employees within the tobacco industry.

But you personally, will you accept that your taxes be increased to 50% more. How about if it went up to 100% of your annual taxes. I really don't want my taxes to increase but if the banning started, it's going to increase.

Blackduff (non-smoker)

A week or so ago, someone posted this question on Trip Advisor in the Paris forum. The question was actually answered without turning into a political football so anyone wanting the answer should go there and read for themselves. And yes, the ban seemed to be working.

What all of this discussion ignores is just how cool smoking is!

Seriously, though, as a non-smoker, I love these laws, but the righteous indignation that has taken over the US is pretty pathetic. And, yeah, Californians are pretty obnoxious about stuff like this.

Cowboy, you can add at least three other countries under &quot;No smoking in restaurants, bars, cafes, no exemptions&quot;:

Finland
Estonia
Malta

Yesterday I heard a rather perplexing question:

If public restaurants offer a smoking section, why don't public swimming pools offer a peeing section?

Thanks for the update, Elina.

I suspected Finland and the Baltic countries to be in that league, but lacked qualified information.

I did not mention Malta, since one source said that they had restriction but observance was somewhat vague in tourist areas.

I am somewhat amazed that professional tourist guides like Fodors don't put a map of this in their destination sections. The usually heated debates show that there must be some interest, IMO.

Now that you mentioned Baltic countries, one more to &quot;No smoking in restaurants, bars, cafes, no exemptions&quot;:

Lithuania

I can't understand why Americans are so uptight about smoking but think its ok to export massive amounts of tobacco. Just say no.

Jane196:
&quot;Lighten up&quot;

No one dares light up around this group.

It would be interesting to know how many of the self-righteous US citizens have purchased Havana cigars for themselves/friends/business associates?

:-)

dave

Oh, and before anyone jumps on me about the &quot;citizen&quot; notation, my family has been in North America since 1621 and I smoke. PPHHHTTT.

&quot;I can't understand why Americans are so uptight about smoking but think its ok to export massive amounts of tobacco. Just say no.&quot;

How right! And I'll add : ....&quot;and have nothing to say when US tobacco companies agressively target young people in developping countries&quot;