What is the smoking policy in Italy? We are going to Sicily in May, and I want to know what to expect. Thanks.

It is interesting how many Americans endorse government intervention ( even in other countries ) and would
have a bird if government in their country made any moves to ban guns or provide different health care options.
Talk about a cost to the society....
My ( European) mother used to light up with her girlfriends while enjoying the midday coffee.
I do the same once in while at home or in the outdoor European cafes.
(Thank you Spain).
Purist be damned!

My wife and I will be in Paris for the month of May, and we are looking forward to being inside restaurants, etc. that are not filled with smoke and with smokers. We were delighted the last time we visited Paris to discover no smokers in the Metro--quite an improvement from our earlier visits many years ago.

Nine years ago, we had this experience in two restaurants: We politely asked "Nous voudrions une table pour non fumeurs, s'il est possible" and were told "Mai oui, Monsieur." We were then escorted to a table surrounded by smokers, and the waiter ceremoniously placed a "Defense de Fumer" sign on our table.

This May should bring a more pleasant experience for us (Californians).

Wow - I am the OP, and I had no idea this topic would touch so many nerves.

Despite the second-hand smoke we experienced in Paris restaurants last fall, I would still choose to return to enjoy the city and all it has to offer, regardless of whether the ban had been enacted or not. Paris is an amazing city.

In posting, I was just curious to know how it had all shaken out, as it was quite the topic of converstion last November, when I was there. I was not attempting to pass judgment or engage in a political or moral debate ...

I do think personally that tobacco is unhealthy, and that smoking in public places exposes everyone - even non-smokers - to the risks posed. And I also agree that the tobacco companies target youth and lower-income people, which is unfortunate.

But I also realize we all make our own choices, and if smoking is accepted in a place I choose to patronize, that is my own repsonsibility.

And yes, I am from California (sorry, all you CALIF-haters) and I recall when the no-smoking in public places law was passed here, there were cries of doom and gloom - it was assumed by many that all bars and resturants would lose business and many would fold - and that never materialized.

I posted just because I was curious if that had been the case in France, as well.

People are not smoking indoors at all. The law is applied strictly. However, very many cafés have expanded their outdoor terraces and installed butane umbrella or electric overhead heaters, since smoking is still permitted at tables outside, which can be partially enclosed "if one side is completely open or if it is completely open overhead." I have seen a few establishments worthy of debate on this subject, but as it has been a very mild winter so far, basically smokers have no problem sitting outside and do not need to benefit from excessive protection.

Most smokers are happy to be prevented from smoking too much, but there have been a few reports of "meals on the run," exactly as Belgium had last year. This concerns people who have dinner and who say they are going to step outside for a smoke before dessert -- and who run off without paying.

There have been quite a few complaints about discothèques, along the lines of "they used to smell like smoke -- now they stink of sweat!" Most establishments say that this problem will be resolved as soon as they change their upholstery and wall hangings.

This thread is making me want to go to California. I survived years and years of suffering from second-had smoke at home (my father smoked, didn't quit until I was an adult), in college, in workplaces, and it has always caused me problems ranging from bad headaches and grogginess (not my tpical state at all)to productive coughs a day or two after exposure. California is sounding very appealing.

Does anyone know the status of smoking laws in Greece? I loved Greece, but it seemed to be the most smoking-addicted country I've visited. However, it wasn't a huge problem to me as a visitor, since I almost always ate outside.

kerouac seems to be pointing out what has certainly been the case here in Florida. I used to love sitting outside at cafes, but since the indoor smoking bans, sitting outside is really sitting in a sea of smoke as generally almost everyone sitting outside is smoking.

Greece and the Netherlands are considered to be the worst countries in Europe at the moment, in terms of smoking problems.

A very personal side effect of the no smoking ban on our trip to Ireland in 2005:

My family of five rented a house through the Irish Heritage Foundation in Temple Bar, across from the Film Institute, just after the smoking ban had gone into effect.

The rock bar a few doors down was jam packed every night from 4:00 pm until 4:00 am and all the smokers would be out in the street under our windows with their drinks and very loud laughter and drunken behavior until the place closed. The street in front of the house was strewn with empty beer mugs, cigarette and cigar butts, and related trash.

We could not wait for our five night stay to be up and we were thrilled when we finally got to London, the second half of our trip, and were able to get some sleep!

We expected Temple Bar to be "lively" but not to that extent.
I wonder if that is still going on. Believe me, we're not about to go back there to find out!
Eve

"Does anyone know the status of smoking laws in Greece?"

We were in Greece (Athens, Mykonos, Santorini, Crete) in October - there was definitely plenty of smoking in restaurants and other indoor venues ... I think we noticed it less than we did in November in Paris, mainly because the weather was so much warmer, we spent more time outdoors while in Greece.

This is the first time I've been bored reading a Fodors post - a big yawn to you all. PS. I'm a non smoker.

well, cathies, thanks for bringing the thread to life with your exciting post.

there are 17 HUMMER dealerships in California.... never mind other gas guzzlers.

so much for pure air...

Hummers? Was that a suggestion that eating at a cafe when a Hummer drives by could cause lung cancer?

I'm not arguing that Hummers are good for the environment, but trying to relate what in the world it has to do with this thread.

Just got back from paris last week. Yes all the restaurants and the patrons obey the law. people who want to smoke, have to go outside to smoke . it is strictly enforced . However outdoor dining and smoking is still allowed.

< survived years and years of suffering from second-had smoke

This is REALLY sad and is repeated time and time again. I am in Europe with a young child and don't like what all the exposure does to her and the other children. This is not a "victimless crime" like some like to pretend.

Every mother should be passionate about this issue. There are no safe levels, so just walking a child on a street in Europe, exposes them to unnecessary risk. We have had more respiratory problems since being in Europe and I have never seen my daughter cough so much ( almost always connected to smoke).

People exposed to second-hand smoke have a greater risk of suffering from lung cancer, nasal sinus cancer, heart disease, stroke, and breathing problems, including increased coughing, wheezing, pneumonia, bronchitis, and asthma.

The bottom line is the reason France and so many places are doing this is because there is overwhelming evidence that second hand smoke KILLS and maims.

Tobacco smoking is the MAJOR cause of PREVENTABLE death and disease in developed societies. Over 650.000 Europeans are killed every year because of smoking related diseases, and 13 million more are suffering as a result of their smoking.

Facts and figures:

Tobacco kills 1 in 2 long-term users.
1 in 4 of all deaths from cancer in the EU is caused by smoking.
3 in 10 of all deaths from all respiratory diseases are caused by smoking.
1 in 10 of all deaths from cardiovascular diseases in the EU is caused by smoking.
The ASPECT report puts the annual cost of tobacco related disease in the EU at EUR 100 billion – or 1% of GDP.
Non-smokers also pay for costs of smoking through medical costs related to second-hand tobacco smoke, higher taxes and higher prices for products and services.

The other bottom line is that banning works! The studies show overwhelmingly that there is a huge decrease in heart attacks ( 27%!), workers in restaurants have much better lung and cardiovascular health, more people quit smoking, less cigarettes are sold, less smoking in the home,39% reduction of second hand smoke etc etc.

I really do not understand the pride in smoking, a tragic addiction. Perhaps some should visit people suffering the hideous slow painful death of lung cancer , one of the worst ways to die. ( I am a nurse and have seen it). I pity the sad 26% of French 15 year olds that are already addicted and any one else that has this monkey on their back.

A smoke free nation is something to be proud of and to work towards.Good for France and all the countries that are working towards a solution that is best for all. Won't it be wonderful when no child has to grow up with needless tobacco smoke polluting their fragile lungs like CMT's sad case?

Come to California,CMT, we have entire cities that are smoke free... and there are few places as beautiful!!

I hope my grandchildren can experience a smoke free Europe. How wonderful that would be!

WTnow
Give us a break, svp. Give us a few words about the smog in LA. Try drive from LA towards Riverside and tell me that the beautiful vista is great. The last time I was up that road my eyes were smarting with the smog. The smoke isn't from cigarettes but just pollution from the gas guzzling lead cars. Take a look at the cars in California. How many cubes in those engines. Why are all of these cars need to (1)have automatic transmissions, and (2)do all of these cars have to run their Air Conditioning wherever they drive.

Blackduff

Get over it. Wikipedia "smoking bans." A quick google search on "smoking bans" will also get you the same results. You can easily find out what countries allow indoor smoking, or if you will have to complain that the outdoor tables on your spring/summer vacations were filled with smokers who ruined your trip.

Or maybe, just maybe, <b>consider staying home.</b> You will be in the comfort of <b>your</b> home, <b>your</b> values, <b>your</b> native speakers, <b>your</b> comfort level.

Obesity caused by poor diet and general laziness/inactivity causes more health problems in the US than smoking.

How much do you weigh? What if I asked you how much you weighed? What if I complained about how looking at a country of fat people about to get diabetes or be stricken with heart disease because of the crap they ate, ruined my vacation? Or I told you you could not eat x food because it was bad for you? Did you know most foods that are consumed are processed? Did you know that they were not good for your health? Did you eat them anyway today, yesterday, the day before?

When you eat that 1/2 of a large extra cheese pizza from Dominos or Pizza Hut tonight, and let your children eat their happy meal from McDonald's, or you share the Family Meal from Boston Market that was pre-made in a factory, shipped and reheated under heat lamps, swimming in preservatives and hydrogenated oils and fat, think about your petty complaints about being around some smoke while on vacation for a few days and how that's going to kill you rather than the food you eat.

Also, when did y'all develop allergies to smoke? Seems to be a new one trotted out by the people who whine that they weren't allowed to say something prior to the not-so-widespread US smoking bans have been enacted on a state, county or city basis rather than widespread.

Like the other poster said, this is a snoozefest topic meant only to incite bitching from both sides of the smoking fence. Really, if it is soooo painful, why bother traveling.

Well there are really ugly parts to Tuscany, Capri, Provence and all over Europe, does not mean that all of it is ugly. People just show the pretty parts, but there are also lots of ugly glut as one drives around. NO PLACE is perfect. I love those places, but they are not perfect.

I am from Northern California which is a whole different ball game than one ugly, smoggy area of LA. Cities are also different than rural areas and there is a LOT of rural area in California.

It is a big State...bigger than many European countries. Do you really think you have seen it all and know everything about it? There are MANY pristine areas in California. Ever heard of Big Sur, Lake Tahoe, Yosemite etc?

I lived in a very beautiful and isolated area where there was NO pollution and no smoke. There are whole cities that are smoke free zones, beaches and parks that are smoke free. Does not mean it is perfect, but areas of very pure air.

I am not for all the crazy cars in LA or the endless and harmful diesel fumes in Europe. I thought this was about second hand smoke and how it harms and kills?

That is a whole different topic and it is funny, no one can argue how wonderful smoking is for you and everyone, so they start bringing all kinds of odd things into this.

We ran into some world travelers who have spent years in Europe, Asia, Australia, New Zealand and all of South America. They said, &quot;you know, when you come from California it is hard to be impressed.&quot;

We have found that true and very few places equal the pristine beauty found in California.

cherrybomb, I'm confused by your post.

I agree that overeating and obesity are health issues, but can you explain how &quot;What if I complained about how looking at a country of fat people about to get diabetes or be stricken with heart disease because of the crap they ate, ruined my vacation?&quot; relates to being FORCED to breathe second hand smoke and endangering the health of the OBSERVER? People aren't complaining because the SIGHT of people smoking bothers them -- they are complaining because that smoke can kill THEM as well as the person smoking. Big difference.

For the poster inquiring about smoking in Greece:

We spent 2 weeks in mainland Greece in April and May of 2006. Smoking was permitted in restaurants and there didn't seem to be a requirement for the existence of nonsmoking areas in restaurants. I have asthma and caught a nasty cold in the middle of our trip so my lungs were extra sensitive to the heavy smoke in all the dining establishments. We ended up eating outside in the corner of the outdoor eating area to get away from the smoke even though it was cold and windy several nights. The restaurant owners were very kind and brought out heating lamps to make us more comfortable.

Maybe Greece has since changed its laws as our trip was in 2006 but if not, I wanted you to know what to expect. We loved Greece by the way and hope to return for an even longer trip in 2009. I will just be bringing several inhalers with me!

Actually i am mostly vegan and eat a diet of mostly whole foods like fresh made beans and brown rice and lots of veggies and fruits. I exercise every day. I have low blood pressure, low cholesterol. I am chubby, ( but have just lost 18lbs) but so are lots of people in Europe who are my age...55.

I also find organic food much easier to find in California than anywhere in Europe.

But again, off to a new topic because no one can say how wonderful smoking is for anyone.

Please show me any evidence that second hand smoke is good for children or adults! I am pro healthy Europe!

&gt;&gt; I thought this was about second hand smoke and how it harms and kills?
&lt;&lt;

No, it was a question as to whether the French ban on smoking was really enforced/followed at this point.

Quoting the OP &quot;I am curious - is the new ban being enforced? I can hardly imagine that all the heavily addicted smokers are minding the new law&quot;

WTnow, you turned it into a long rant on the dangers of second-hand smoke. Isn't that what the lounge is for. Health issues are <b>not</b> travel related. The initial question, while worded in a negative manner, is travel related.

There is a really great thread where the person asked the straightforward question to the effect of: is smoking banned in Switzerland. No more, no less. It was refreshing. Ask a question, get a straight answer. Offer an opinion with a loaded question, get a bunch of ranting.

Your confusion is what? Provide me with some evidence that <b>tourists</b> are dying from second-hand smoke and I will retract my comment about the obesity epidemic, general laziness and poor diet contribute to more health health problems in the US than the second-hand smoke that tourists face. Remember, the initial question is about being around cigarette smoke while in vacation. The general tendency to gripe about smoking on this forum is by tourists, on holiday, for a few days.

NeoPatrick, I assume you are an educated man. Surely you can see the difference.

Smokers overall know that smoking is not healthy. Fat people, sedentary people and those who consume large quantities of processed food do not necessarily.

Organic is not a necessary label needed outside of the US as land isn't raped to over-grow soybeans and corn to feed animals that are meant to eat grass. To provide plastics and oils and sugars to add to your processed foods.


WTnow, with your new vegan, healthy lifestyle, I suggest you read up on food production in the US. It might make you rethink &quot;organic&quot; and other labels widely found in precious California.

I am done with this--I need to leave work.

Actually I think it was StCirq that started the negative tone in the very first post and then upped the antie wiht the &quot;ape-shit&quot; and such charged comments.

I only came in because she and others were pretending it is not an &quot;incessant' problem.

i am sure second hand smoke has killed a few tourist ( look at the heart rate statistic) although there may not be specific data to prove it. '


There is proof that says ANY exposure to second hand smoke is harmful and can be very harmful. Many here ( from Europe, the States and elsewhere) have talked about their problems with the incessant smoking in Europe so it is an issue that affects tourists and travel.
Many people were also glad to hear of places that have taken the correct steps.

Statistics show that Europeans are not as aware as Americans are about the dangers of smoking and second hand smoke to others. Most seem to be unaware how damaging it is to children. I regularly see mothers and fathers smoking around their babies totally oblivious in Europe.

I think most people who are overweight are well aware of the dangers. That said, studies show that fit and fat can be much more healthy than skinny and unfit. Just because someone is skinny does not mean they are healthy or fit.

WTnow
I've been to Big Sur, Lake Tahoe, and Yosemite. In between these places too. June Mountain, Mammoth, and the road across into the Yosemite. I have photos of the mule deer crossing across the river feeding from Yosemite park. I think that this is the Merced river but I can't remember.

In the north I can remember visiting to the Six Rivers Park. I slept in my car in that park the night after Kennedy was killed.

So yes, there are some beautiful places but nothing is happened to change the big cars and the amounts of fuel buring in this big state.

But why don't we mention a few other places in the US, since your post is Pan-European. Cleveland had a river which caught fire. This was the Cayahoga River and it burned down three railroad bridges. The rolling sheet metal companies dumped their used oil direct into the river. The lowest form of life in a polluted river had no more sludge worms left. Been there, bought the tee-shirt. How did young girls breathe the fumes from Republic Steel, Alcoa and Kaiser factories. When I passed my car the windsheild wipers had to keep working to scrub the dirt dropped onto the car.

It's okay to say &quot;Paris, you have to keep trying to get better&quot; but don't finish this statement about it's better in California.

Blackduff

Wondered why people get seem to get so heated about smoking-related topics, then just remembered that Ann Landers once said she received the largest number of (and some of the most passionately written) letters when she opened up the topic of which way should the toilet paper hang (&quot;up&quot; or &quot;down&quot;).

' Every mother should be passionate about this issue. There are no safe levels, so just walking a child on a street in Europe, exposes them to unnecessary risk. We have had more respiratory problems since being in Europe and I have never seen my daughter cough so much ( almost always connected to smoke).
&quot;
If Europe is such a sewer compared to the lovely air in California ( sure Neo , gas guzzlers don't produce harmful fumes ! ) why have you brought your child to live in such vile place.

Hi cherrybomb,

I do think health issues can also be travel issues for some travellers, if not all. I don't want to debate the &quot;degree of evilness&quot; between smog, pesticides/artificial ingredients in food, and pervasive cigarette smoke but I believe all are issues that can be both travel-related and health-related. Ask anyone with severe allergies or asthma (or anyone who has both, like me :-( ).

This really does it.

Now you can be fat and fit according to &quot;studies&quot;, die from exposure to 2nd hand smoke during your 2 day visit to Paris (no &quot;studies&quot; this time, but WT is sure, wow), people in &quot;Europe&quot; blow smoke into the faces of their babies (regular customs here, some sort of rite of passage before they may travel to Paris), and so on.

And all this drama is resting on the shoulders of a non-smoking 55yo vegan from a pristine remote area in Northern California, deported with her young child by some ugly fate into the heartland of tobacco abuse, and on a crusade to bring enlightment and wisdom to the stupid Europeans.

I don't know - but this is definetely getting too much for me. Is this now a joke, and WT just pulling our legs?

Blackduff et al,
I am not pan Europe at all...I am pro Europe! I only mentioned California because one poster from Europe said he was interested in it and the smoke free parts.

Like others, I am just giving my experience. I find it odd that I am the only one who has seen endless Europeans walking prams with cigarettes or holding babies with a cigarette in the other hand.My child's teacher even smokes in front of and near the kids! I find it astonishing because of all the facts we know about how badly it harms children for life.

No joke cowboy:
http://www.diet-blog.com/archives/20..._and_unfit.php

WTnow
I still don't get why you chose to live in such an unpleasant environment that is harming you child .??????

&gt;&gt; Blackduff et al,
I am not pan Europe at all...I am pro Europe!

I rest my case.

Hi,
The original post was &quot; I am curious - is the new ban being enforced&quot; in Paris. Seems like a yes or no answer would have been enough.

Just a thought here (I know I shouldn't)...
I read &quot;&quot;but can you explain how &quot;What if I complained about how looking at a country of fat people about to get diabetes or be stricken with heart disease because of the crap they ate, ruined my vacation?&quot; relates to being FORCED to breathe second hand smoke...&quot;

Forced by whom?
Did someone make you travel to a &quot;smoking&quot; country?
My personal experience is that I've never been forced to patronize any particular restaurant or cafe.

Fortunately, I'm very tolerant and simply choose to avoid places and people that annoy (and especially the ones that endanger) me.
I wish people were as passionate about changing things that need improvement in OUR country. Living in N.J. and spending 2 weeks a year visiting Europe, I couldn't care less if the French, Germans, etc. are smoking or not.

Paul

&lt;I still don't get why you chose to live in such an unpleasant environment that is harming you child .??????


Just because I worry about the harm of smoking on my child and all of us ( and others have said the same thing) does not mean that I hate all of Europe. That is a total nonsensical conclusion.

I see that as a PRO healthy Europe stance. Why would anyone argue for more smoking rather than less? The reason for the ban in Paris and elsewhere is because it is GOOD for Paris and good for Europe. It is not for tourists, it is for Europeans!

I feel especially bad for the children and all the exposure to smoke because I know it harms them. I feel bad for all the cigarette addicted people. The young ones who are setting themselves and their children up for a harder life than they would have without this addiction. The old ones who look so old from years of smoking and the teeth.

Sorry, but Europe is a little behind on this one. Is that so hard to admit? The good news is the process has begun and has been successful so far.

I like Europe, but we are not hear to stay, we are traveling the world. I am sure I will not care for smoking anywhere ( or many of the other vices mentioned here).

That does not stop me seeing the beauty here, the beauty in my country and the beauty in people everywhere.

Oh, comeon now, cherrybomb. Talk about ME seeing the difference. Are you honestly saying you can't tell the difference between talking about someone SEEING something that is unhealthy to others, and someone EXPERIENCING something that is harmful to him? Get real. And if you're trying to pull the &quot;prove that second hand smoke is dangerous&quot; well, you're about 30 years too late. I don't need to prove that, it's been proven over and over again.

You honestly expect us to believe that one person SEEING unhealthy people is the same as being forced to inhale deadly smoke? This couldn't be more absurd!

I agree with Paul, I just don't go to places (restaurants, bars, whatever) that make me feel uncomfortable in any sense, no matter if it is here at home or travelling.

Its amazing how a simple question can make people go so crazy on a topic! A friend studying in Paris this entire school year said that she has seen a marked decrease in smoking at the local restaurants she goes to. She isn't a smoker, but her French roommates are, and while they grumble, they aren't willing to get kicked out or fined, so they go with it.

Some of her friends have even stopped coughing as much- they were amazed how much easier the walk to the store was with 'clean' air:)

&quot;does not mean that I hate all of Europe. That is a total nonsensical conclusion.
:
Hate? Who said anything about hate.
If I were soooooo worried about my child , I would book the first flight home where people got ahead of the rest of the world and eradicated smoke, pollution, fat foods, drugs, guns an other harmful things in life so now they can lecture poor, stupid Europeans.