WOW! I'm amazed I provoked all this. Let me say first off that I harbor no ill feelings toward Californians. I love the state and am looking forward to visiting my daughter there in mid-February. I DO think you Californians are a nation unto yourselves, though. All organic and pure and so on....hand me the carrot juice and I have a 2 pm with my personal trainer...y'know?

I am a former smoker. I'm not one of those reformed smokers who gets all high and mighty about it, though. To me it's a meh, who cares issue. And as I already said, I absolutely do appreciate the allergy issue, though I do think it is probably a US phenomenon that diagnoses people as having such an allergy. Same with the second-hand smoke issue. I'd be more worried about running over a squirrel.

As I stated before, it's obvious to me that French people have taken the new laws seriously and yes, the smoking issue is kind of moot now.

I don't really care where you come down on the issue of smoking - be all Californian or pure or whatever, but let's revisit the original poster's language: "I can hardly imagine that all the heavily addicted smokers are minding the new law, but hopefully it's a step in the right direction." Excuse me, but fill in the blanks with references to obesity for example, which to me is just as bad as smoking but would never be legislated. And to assume that you're going to end up on your vacation in a spot with "heavily addicted smokers"....oh come on...

StCirq,
I assume you never saw the Seinfeld episode when Kramer spent a weekend having "displaced" smokers in his apartment. See what happened to him!!! Holy Cow!

Paul

Okay, Cirq - I am the original poster, and yes, I did say it would be a bit of a surprise to see all the "heavily addicted" smokers adhering to the new policy.

I, like you, am a former smoker, having quit about 20 years ago, after having smoked for at least that long. I was very heavily addicted to nicotine; quitting was a horrible experience, one I hope never to repeat on any level.

And ... after the ban on smoking took effect here in California there were many who did not follow the new law for a period of time. (Even now IN CALIFORNIA (horrors!), there are still a few places left where outlaw smokers continue to light up.

And, apparently, in reality it appears from other posters' comments that many smokers are still able to smoke in "outdoor" areas, some thinly veiled contained parts of Paris restaurants.

And to equate obesity, which has no direct effect on anyone else, to second-hand smoke is ridiculous.

So ... all I did was ask a simple question. Sorry if I somehow offended your sensibilities by indicating that many smokers are addicted ... I suppose you will post again soon to argue that point as well.

Do the french still smoke after sex ?







Or do they do it slower now ?

One last post, mainly to apologize to those who were offended as that was not my intention. There seems to be a lot of hurt feelings here and that never feels good.

I happen to have a heavily coughing flu at the moment as does my daughter, so perhaps my daughter's constant hacking just added to my venting my frustrations about all the smoking in Europe. That said, I have never complained to anyone in Europe about all the smoking, knowing that this is just the way it is.

It is not just bars or restaurants, there is really no where to hide from the smoke.

St Cirq, you last post helped me see even clearer how this is really all about perspective. I understand now how " heavily addicted smokers" was charged for you and yet I did not even notice that. "Incessant" seemed excessive to you and perhaps others and yet seemed very accurate to me and others. It is all in the eye of the beholder.

I guess my perspective ( as yet another heavily addicted smoker many, many years ago) is that almost all smokers no longer smoke by choice, but it is the addiction that makes them "have" to smoke another fag. Most could not stop if you paid them. I have read that it is as hard to kick cigarettes as it is to kick a heroin habit. It certainly felt that way to me.

Also if others like you do not necessarily believe all the data on second hand smoke or sensitivities, that helps explain a lot of things on different perspectives.

I absolutely believe all the studies that show ANY second hand smoke is dangerous and there is great improvement when that is changed. I don't need to be right next to the person to be bothered by the smoke.

Our perception of smoking in Paris or anywhere in Europe will be quite different even though we are looking at the same things.

I have a little different perspective than many because we have spent many months all over Europe. I have a child and it is not 2 weeks of exposure but 17 months.

YES, of course I am affected by the fact that I come from an area where my daughter had absolutely NO exposure to smoke what so ever for the first five years of her life.


My daughter does get MUCH less exposure than any of her friends here, because we are very diligent, but it is impossible to avoid it all. Sadly she has had so much more exposure than she ever would had we stayed home.

Yes that does weigh on me, how could it not? All lives have trade offs, but since young kids and their developing lungs are very affected by second hand smoke, I pray that I am making the right choice. We really did not know it was this bad until we got here.

It is not so easy for us to just fly home. We went thru a lot of trouble selling our home and almost all of our possessions, buying RV and getting long stay visas etc. I do hope that the good of our extensive travels and quality time together out weighs the bad of second hand smoke, but there will be no way to know for sure.

My child also went from an area where nobody smokes and everyone thinks it is stupid and harmful to Europe where it seems to be universally accepted as "nothing wrong with it". Little ones are in smoky places and see all the adults smoking, so the next generation is primed for the tobacco companies and their lures. Not something I would choose for her.

Many, probably most of the parents and teachers smoke. No one cares that smoke drifts to the babies stroller as the mom waits gabbing to her friend as she puffs away.

I can not even let my child go visit her friend in the village house next to ours because her mom smokes. We just invite her and most of her friends here where we know there will be no second hand smoke.


We love our village and our friends here ( the smokers too of course) and might consider buying a second home here later, except for the smoke. We just do not see the smoking as the best of Europe.

Much is different than home which we expected it to be and we have enjoyed our 17 months here and made lots of friends, seen lots of great things.

I just do not see the smoking as a positive, but the one point that is most negative, especially for my child and the children here.

I am baffled by some of the comments, but think it it must be a perspective thing. Sorry to those offended, there was no offense intended.

Several things:

There are NO studies that show that 2nd hand smoke has any negative consequences on tourists exposed for a few days here and there. It is bothersome, as others have said, you are not FORCED to go where you are uncomfortable.

Obesity is a valid equation. Many of the posters are bothered by smoke. Obese people can be seen as bothersome--they take up more room, 2 seats, possibly walk much slower, some would say are grotesque to look at, etc. That is bothersome. But the real issue is that I pay with my taxes for medical care of the of those who develop diabetes, heart problems, etc, due to obesity/poor eating habits/sedentary lifestyles. As StCirq said, no one is legislating that. Arguments are made that smokers are costing a fortune in health care, thus smoking is to be legislated. The two are similar.

Europeans do not know the dangers of smoking? That is ridiculous. The EU mandated large, bold warnings on cigarette packaging stating that "smoking kills," "see your doctor/pharmacist to quit smoking," "smoking can cause cancer," and in the UK, skull and crossbones and pictures of ruined body parts. This was far before similar warnings in very tiny print were mandated on US cigarette packaging.

WTnow: You sound like you really are not enjoying living outside of your comfort bubble of life in the good old US where California dreaming is alive and well and healthy thanks to your good governor, who, btw, smokes cigars. (Yes, I am aware the California ban went into effect prior to his election)

The question at hand was "I am curious - is the new ban being enforced?" The question was answered. Yes, people are adhering. At 10pm on January 1 when I was in Paris, the ashtrays were taken from the tables at a cafe, though people continued to smoke that evening sans ashtrays. They did not indoors after. Please though, don't complain when you see people smoking outside. You cannot have it both ways unless you propose outlawing cigarettes. People smoke outdoors in California and other US areas where smoking indoors has been banned too.

Smoking bans are not a European issue. The US is NOT completely smoke-free, let's stop pretending it is.

For what it is worth, I would rather cigarettes be banned outright. One could still ring the dealer and have them delivered to one's door or buy on the black market, but consistency would reign. You cannot ban cigarette usage in public spaces for "health reasons" and keep it legal. I'd rather have it a straight up issue of smoking kills. Smoking causes health problems that taxpayers supposedly have to pay for. Smoking should not be legal. Though if that were to happen, I would expect to fully have my body legislated:

Prohibition--drunk drivers cause accidents, liquor causes liver problems, alcoholism. Processed foods, trans-fats, deep fried foods, fast foods all contribute to heart failure and diabetes. Cars cause accidents, death and contribute to pollution. And so on.

To reiterate the initial question: Yes, the French are indeed adhering to the new ban on indoor smoking.

Did all of you people drink contaminated water or something?

Sorry, one more because this is just too ironic!

The one person who protested the MOST about her right to smoke despite what it might do to anyone else (& even suggested those that do not like smoke should stay home)..... has MS and smoking is a risk factor for MS and makes the disease progress more rapidly!!

Wow.

I am sorry, but I will never understand how people can fight for a weakness that is hurting them and harming others around them.

You are probably not interested Cherrybomb, but just incase, I will leave this for you.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...m_uid=14581703

I wish you well, no matter!

Oh. I'm not well versed in the effects of MS. Does it also affect the brain so one can't tell the difference between seeing an obese person and breathing harmful smoke? If so, that explains it.

So a "few days" of tourist smoke in Paris won't harm you (so far as any studies show). But then add in the week of smoke in Rome, another week of smoke in Prague, several weeks of tourist smoke in . . .wherever. Some of us spend up to half the year traveling. Why should Paris be OK for breathing smoke but nowhere else? What a strange sort of logic.

I think it is hysterically funny that the same person talking about the unhealthy food is saying this. I can also assure you that there are no studies that prove eating a couple BIG MACs and a couple giant orders of fries will harm you. So you're saying that's a good thing?

"Some of us spend up to half the year traveling. "


So, the whole world should adjust to the way we live in North America?

Is it acceptable to say that "Europe is so far behind" when still so many US states are not further ahead? Are Californians also lecturing their fellow Americans from Virginia? Just curious...

WT seems to be unable to see major differences in smoking habits in "Europe", e.g. between Greece or Sweden.

FYI: Europe is more than a little village near Paris, or more than Paris, or France.
And the US is a bit more than the county you come from.

Unfortunately, many of the Fodorites get their knowledge on "Europe" from what they see on their trek from London via Paris and Venice to Rome. This is not "Europe". These places are still in the UK, France, and Italy, respectively. And we do not share one uniform "pan-European" behaviour. (By the way, "pan-" still does not equal "anti-" but "-wide", as in Europe-wide)

If you want to do your kid a favor, consider Scandinavia as your next destination. You would be amazed how "non smoking"-friendly that part of Europe is. And that substantially fewer people smoke, even in the streets. Think of it as an "almost" perfect California. They even copied some pristine landscape up there.

One last thing: With all the sources available, and with at least some common sense, how can ANYONE who comes from a smoke-free in community in California expect it to be even remotely similar in France or Greece, while it's already completely different in Nevada?

It's like some French chain smoker traveling to California, and whining that he does not find a restaurant where he can smoke? What would you tell such a person?

I am actually using obesity as an argument--I do not find obese people offensive, though there are people who do. There is a similar argument that can be made in terms of health costs from both damage caused by smoking and obesity related problems such as diabetes.

I never said that I should be allowed to smoke in Paris or anywhere else, I was merely stating that The US is not entirely smoke- free. In fact I stated that support outright baning the sale of cigarettes. I do however make no bones about my choice to smoke and do so where is it legal and allowed.

To post an webpage of articles stating that smoking causes MS (as you clearly clicked on my name and saw that I have revealed that I have it) is really really f**ked up. So you are stating that I caused my own condition. Really? Alrighty then.

For the record, my MS is mild and stable, I was diagnosed in 1999 with what is easiest defined as MS. This was right after they blanket sprayed the city with pesticides as West Nile Virus was causing mass hysteria. There was no warning, no one told to shut their windows.

MS is literally sclerosis or lesions of the brain, and/or spine. I have no lesions, never have had lesions and my diagnosis is based on other factors--the receptors in my legs are off. My neurologist, who is top in his field in the US, stated the are a few cases of people like myself. Since it is unknown what it really is, it does have a neurological component and for insurance purposes is best defined as MS, that is what we call it. It allows me to get my IVIG treatment every 3-4 weeks. I do not take any of the standard MS drugs--only an immune system boost--the IVIG.

I find it shocking that someone would sink to the level of making a personal attack about a medical condition that another poster has in the travel forum of all places. In the lounge, sure, but here? I guess you win.

NeoPatrick, you might want to watch what you say, lest someone start posting about what caused your partner's condition, not that I would sink to that level, but clearly there are people here who would.

WTnow, shame on you. Really. Shame. On. You. for posting something so inflammatory, rude and beside the point of the initial question at hand.

WTnow: one more thing, why don't you take a look at this when discussing what "causes" MS.

It is actually what I have followed for the since 1999. It speaks of food and environmental factors and the body's autoimmune response. You mght learn something:

http://www.direct-ms.org/bestbet.html

This study shows that second hand smoke poisons with deadly cancer causing chemical in HOURS!!

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/...ml#skip300x250

This one shows a "small amount" does deadly harm to innocent by standers:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2003/09...ke_030903.html

So much for the "few days" no harm theories.

Come on smokers, do a little reading and get out of denial. Lets not pretend smoking is a good thing for anyone. There is a reason these laws keep spreading.

My sweet Spanish neighbor can not talk, because they cut out his voicebox due to cancer from smoking. I see his sad face daily.

http://www.mededu.miami.edu/Tobacco/mouthspeaks

To the editors: I would suggest closing this thread or moving it to the lounge as it does not relate to travel and is a debate over smoking.

WTnow, if you are in Spain, leave the computer, go out and see and experience what you made sacrifices to do. I am leaving the computer at this point as well. I have life to experience and the day is getting late.

"Some of us spend up to half the year traveling. "

So, the whole world should adjust to the way we live in North America?
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>&gt ;

HUH? I believe most Europeans have far more vacation time and travel as much or more than most North Americans. I happen to be retired, but sure didn't mean to imply that half the year traveling had anything to do with a typical American lifestyle!

The last place where I suffered from excess smoke was the United States. I visited my home state of Mississippi.

Do Californians (just mentioned as an example) completely disregard the rest of their own country before criticizing other countries?

"Europe is so far behind"

This is not meant as a personal insult, but it is a fact in my mind. This is just based on the fact that many more Europeans smoke than Americans. Studies show that Americans are more aware about the harm of smoking.

I realize that different areas will vary and I have been to Scandanavia, most of Europe, much of the former Soviet Union, Turkey, Morocco, Egypt, Israel, Africa, South America, many Caribbean Islands including Haiti, much of Mexico, Canada and almost every state in the United States.

So I have done a fair amount of traveling even before we started this slow world tour. I also lived in Italy for a year many years ago, so have some experience of living in Europe.

We still have much more traveling to do here in Europe ( Scandanavia will be one of the choices this summer!) before we head over to Africa for an extended stay and then to South America for an extended stay before a rest and onto SEA, Oz & NZ etc. I am sure Europe will not be the only place where I worry about second hand smoke.

In both the U.S and Europe, people with more money and education tend to smoke less and the poorest smoke the most. Studies seem to show that the main difference is that Europeans are generally less likely to think that cigarette smoking is harmful.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w12124

I think that is an educational matter and Europe ( based on how many smoke in all of Europe compared to how many smoke in all of the U.S. percentage wise) is just behind on this one. California in many ways is ahead...where there are beaches, parks and whole cities that are smoke free.

Europe as a whole, is ahead in many ways like mass transit, but smoking is not one of them imho.

I did not expect it to be exactly like home and I knew smoking would be a concern. I thought I would be able to control it more than I can,

I don't like the diesel fumes when I walk her to school in the morning or on ferries etc either, nor did I like the fact that Grand taxis that took us to the Sahara had no seat belts! There are risks with travel, a mother ( & former nurse) just worries and makes the best choices that she can. I am an older mother so perhaps I weigh it all more diligently than some.

I haven't read the 100+ responses on this topic, but we were in London, Rome, and Paris 12/26- 1/11, and Paris in particular 1/5- 1/11 and all of the smokers happily sat in the outdoor seating areas puffing away in the frigid air.

Those of us who don't smoke were cozy inside, enjoying a smoke-free French meal.

Smoking in public is just about the only area of unacceptable behaviour that people still try to claim they should have an unfettered 'right' to do. We accept that we don't have the right to drink and drive because it has the potential to harm others, so why do some of still think we should be able to expose everyone around us to toxins whenever we feel like it? And that anyone objecting is 'nannying' or 'selfish'. If I object to being run over by your car or punched in the face by you, is that infringing on your 'rights' too?

For me, digging up cherrybomb's remark on her MS from some other thread of this forum, and using that info here, is more disgusting than any amount of 2nd hand smoke in a Paris cafe, even for a concerned mother and former nurse.

I think a minimum level of decency can be expected, even from the most fierce protagonists of smoking bans.

Sorry, I can't help it...

"in both the U.S and Europe, people with more money and education tend to smoke less and the poorest smoke the most."

Austria must be made up of complete idiots due to the lack of education plus they must all be poor.

"We accept that we don't have the right to drink and drive because it has the potential to harm others,
"
How does everyone in bars, clubs, restaurants, etc. get home? I can't imagine not one personthat would go to any of these places had a drink or two... or more.

I can't believe everyone here has nothing better to do (including myself at the moment) than to waste their time arguing this. You may as well start a thread on religion and/or politics. One side is not going to "sway" the other. Never happens.

In closing, why not focus the attention to making the U.S. a better place for you to live, instead of making France, Spain, etc. a better place for you to vacation and visit. Seems like it would be more beneficial.

Paul

Paul - it's a shame you didn't read my post properly. I don't pretend for a minute that people never drink and drive, what I do argue is, we don't say that they should be allowed to, or insist it's unharmful to others, or designate places where they can, or set up pressure groups to combat anti-drink driving policy.

One set of people doing foolish, unhealthy things doesn't mean we should ignore all public health risks too.

And if posting on this topic is such a waste of time, then why have you!!

WTnow, I'm not defending the demonization of obese people, but WOW. Calling someone out because they have MS and smoke is so low and rude, that it boggles the mind. I mean, get off the high horse. Not every disease or ailment can be attributed to one's actions or the actions of others.

I mean, frankly, you come across as more than a little neurotic. Do you honestly believe you will save your child from every ill that might befall them? Not letting them visit their friends houses because they may be exposed to second-hand smoke? Why not just put them in a friggin bubble! It is all a little over the top. Get a life. And let your children live theirs.

Cowboy1968: When was the last time you were in Scandinavia? I can't speak for Sweden or Norway as much, but people in Denmark smoke like it is going out of style. Easily as bad as France.

Neo, this was what I should have posted , ergo my response

"So a "few days" of tourist smoke in Paris won't harm you (so far as any studies show). But then add in the week of smoke in Rome, another week of smoke in Prague, several weeks of tourist smoke in . . .wherever. Some of us spend up to half the year traveling. Why should Paris be OK for breathing smoke but nowhere else? What a strange sort of logic."

Sorry RM67,

You said "And if posting on this topic is such a waste of time, then why have you!!" If you read my post, I stated that I had nothing better to do at the moment.

Does anyone here really think they are getting the "other side" to see their point? So far, I'd say no.

I just think writing to the appropriate elected officials would be more useful than writing on a Fodors TRAVEL board. This kind of discussion only results in anger and things being said that can't be undone, as noted previously.

Hey, I now have something better to do, bye.

Paul

You missed mine too Paul. I guess you did not read the abstract link that I left with it for more detail saying "among richer countries and people, higher incomes are associated with less smoking".

So it would be the better educated, higher income people in Austria etc who would be doing less smoking.

I think the number of posts here ( 3 from you!), shows that this is an important topic to travelers to Europe from all over the world. Unlike smoker cannonball, I think this thread should stay here.

Cowboy.....pffft that is your smoker talking.

Hello! This is the internet it is ALL public and no different than her asking me about my weight from another post we were in together. People do it constantly.

I did not steal her medical files and out her. LOL! She is very open and casual about that and her love of smoking.

Was is shameful is that some smokers have no remorse or guilt for all the people they have poisoned due to their addiction.

Take responsibility smokers.....just HOURS worth of second hand smoke can poison an innocent bystander.How can any public words be worse than polluting a child's lungs?? Silly.


It was exceedingly relevant to the conversation and I had hoped she might read about all that data which shows a strong link between MS and smoking, I am sure her doctor does not tell her that smoking is good for her. Any good doc would help her quit.

It is ridiculous to lecture about bad food if you are puffing away on death sticks which harm every cell of the body with every puff and leaves one more vulnerable to disease while harming others with each exhale.

I am a former smoker. The last few years I smoked, unless home in my own apartment I smoked outdoors.
I am glad for the sake on nonsmokers that Europe is now adapting "no smoking inside" rules.
I only hope that in the US and in Europe they will get just as strict with cell phone usage rules, especially in restaurants and public places. Talk about addictions!
I was coming home from work recently by bus, sitting next to someone using her cell phone, at the same time across from a young man talking and laughing on his cell and in front of me was a third cell phone user. All were loud; all were invading another's space; none of their conversations sounded like emergencies. I was trying to read the paper but couldn't concentrate with all the incessent babble, so started to read the paper out loud. Many people on the bus got the point and started laughing. The cell phone users did not get the point, or even care. They gabbed on ... and on ... and on. I really do not know how the bus drivers stand it, day in and day out.
I have also heard that incessent cell phone usage can cause brain tumors. So there's a down side to any addicton, isn't there?

<Not letting them visit their friends houses because they may be exposed to second-hand smoke?

Wow! I am shocked at how uninformed you are!

Obviously you are not well read on the grave dangers of second hand smoke ( which are increased with children are much more vulnerable to permanent damage.

. Read a few of my links which show that even an hours exposure can poison!

**The current Surgeon Generals Report states that there is NO RISK-FREE level of secondhand smoke exposure. Even BREIF exposures can be harmful to children.**


Here is one just about kids if you really want to know what you are talking about;
http://www.lungusa.org/site/pp.asp?c...0E&b=39857

Read the studies please ...there are a TON that show a link between MS and smoking.

To cmt who asked about smoking in Greece: I was there in June 2007. I've traveled to 18 other European countries and have always been taken a back by the amount of smoking, but nowhere else in Europe even comes close to the amount of smoking we encountered than in Greece. I loved the country, but if I'm being honest the smoking really did affect the quality of our trip in a serious way. Even eating outdoors we simply could not escape it. We were constantly strategizing to minimze the smoke factor--where to sit, when to eat to have fewer fellow diners (ie potential smokers), etc. And the thing is that we found that not only do the vast majority of Greeks smoke, but they are also chain smokers. People were lighting up one after another with very few breaks. It got old. If I were to have written a trip report on our trip it would have been entitled "If you smoke, you'll love Greece."

"Wow! I am shocked at how uninformed you are!"

It isn't being uninformed, it is having a grasp of just what these risks entail and one's inability to protect one's child from every risk. I mean, are you going to prevent them from going to college, so that they aren't exposed to alcohol or cigarettes or caffeine? Do you ban them from eating fried foods? Perhaps you will institute a dating ban, lest they have unsafe sex? Do they not cross the street? Or ride in cars? Or use a cell phone, lest they develop brain cancer? What is left? Let them take a risk every now and then, for their sake. I know it makes you feel better, but it doesn't help them at all. Stop being selfish and let them live their lives like a normal human being who isn't clinically paranoid about every health scare out there.

As for MS and smoking, even if they could prove a causal link, this does not excuse your personal attacks on someone, effectively blaming them for having the misfortune of suffering from MS. I mean, how do you not grasp how ghastly such behavior is? Are you such an arrogant anti-smoking zealot that you would stoop so low? It isn't just that I think you should be embarrassed, it is that I am embarrassed for you.

Well my child was only 5 when we started and just turned 7, so i do not have to worry about dating or college yet.;)

http://www.smoke-free.ca/Second-Hand...ealth_kids.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/28/he...mp;oref=slogin

I CAN keep her away from something that will kill her and cause life long harm or death that is EASILY preventable, That is why your first silly question gave you away. Only an uninformed parent would allow a young child to play in a smoke filled home.

Anyone who supports smoking is just uninformed...it is deadly....read and take better care for your children. The overwhelming evidence is in, there is NO debate.

I do not have a brood of kids, we have one and we retired early, so that we have lots of time to take really good care of her and explore the world together. Our goal is doing one really well while we enjoy our time together.

I am a nurse and 55, the eldest daughter of a big family, so I do not think I need lessons on parenting, lol!

We are free spirits...might be a new concept for you. ;)

I did no personal attacks, so I won't dignify the rest of your nonsense. Your bias is showing, so we can agree to disagree..

People smoking on the sidewalks outside the restaurants, especially at night. Butts littering the ground. Less lingering at tables. That's a friend now living in Paris reports.

WTnow:

I am embarrassed for myself to even respond to you, but I just returned home after an evening out, and probably shouldn't bother posting, but am, especially after asking to have this thread be closed, but I cannot help myself.

I am not sure what your problem is, but you truly are a vile person, as a nurse and "caregiver," you should know better.

You proceeded to post link after link and obsess about how I caused, and continue to cause, a medical condition that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. You called out two people, who said repeatedly they did not smoke, as biased smokers when they called you out.

You took my trip report, something that I wrote that was pleasurable to me to write, that was my experience, and used it against me because you decided that I called you fat.

Frankly, I have no clue what you look like, you have no clue what I look like--I could also be overweight for all you know. I was employing rhetoric. Stating that no one wants to concern themselves with the issue of obesity as an epidemic, one that has similar consequences to smoking. It was rhetoric. Not personal to you--again I don't know you or your personal circumstances with regard to that.

Yes, I have doctors who say I should not smoke. My main caregiver and doctor is more concerned about keeping me stable, which I am, than whether I smoke. I also have another doctor who hounds me, just because he does, does not mean that I will choose to heed his advice. That is what being an adult is about, making choices. I, or anyone else, should not have to answer you, and your choices when they are legal choices.

Unless I read wrong, and I actually read the responses here, both Travelgourmet and Cowboy1968 do not smoke, nor do they care for public smoking, yet you accused them of such as they disagreed with your sudden assault on me because I stated in another thread that I have what is called "MS."

You truly ruined what was to be a pleasant trip report, one that I had enjoyed writing. I don't think I will finish it in the way I intended and will instead answer the questions asked of me about certain restaurants and leave it at that. In that respect I will let you win.

As far as your "concerns" about my health, you lose. I went out tonight in my $750 dress bought on aforementioned holiday this evening to 2 parties, one being a work social, I wore 4 1/2 inch heels and worked it. This isn't a person succumbing to illness. I may someday and I will continue to travel so that I cannot say that I missed out if something bad or unforeseen ever happens.

I never want someone to feel sorry for me--most people don't know there is something wrong. But again, you took something, said as an aside on another completely unrelated thread, blew it up, posted item after item about it, and chastised me for it and shame on you. Frankly, shame on me for sharing something personal about myself on an anonymous forum. I know better in the future and while I hope you actually read this, I now you won't.

I really hope that you, given the opportunity you have of retiring early and traveling with your family, spend the time to enjoy your current life choice, rather than think about the negative parts that make you uncomfortable and the sacrifices you made. That is how I live, and while you seem to think me a fool per my habits, is the way we all should live.

Great stories...No one has told us why they like to smoke. Why is the pleasure of smoking greater than the risk to health?

Mistake: Cowboy1968 may or may not smoke and/or find smoking a non-issue for him, though it is a non-issue in this matter. Just want to be an accurate reader/commenter.

It is pleasurable in the same way that chewing gum is pleasurable, or drinking for some or anything else. Really, who cares and are these really "great stories," I find this all disingenuous, sad, and disgusting.

People are not smoking in large cities in France due to the ban is the real answer to the initial question.

>>>This is just based on the fact that many more Europeans smoke than Americans. Studies show that Americans are more aware about the harm of smoking.<<<

What studies? Dangers of smoking where made quite clear already 30 years ago. Yes, in Europe.

I would understand WT´s fervour if US would be some kind of smoke-free paradise, but it is not. The newest World Health Organisarion´s statistics I could find were from 2002, and I suppose less people smoke nowadays. But according to those statistics in 2002 24 % of adult Americans smoked. 45 % of Greeks smoked (the smokiest country in Europe), and 12 % of Swedes smoked (the least smoky one). So US is somewhere in the middle.

Ugh - it's really too bad that the initial question (mine), which was just an appeal for information as to how the new ban on indoor smoking in France is going , has turned into a slugfest between smokers and non-smokers.

Thank-you to mlgb: ("People smoking on the sidewalks outside the restaurants, especially at night. Butts littering the ground. Less lingering at tables. That's a friend now living in Paris reports.") --- who actually answered the question. That was all I hoped to read in response to the post.

I think it is safe to say that most of us have no opinion as to what other people choose to do, whether it be smoking, overeating, playing loud music, etc. - unless it directly impacts our own health, well-being, or sanity.

I don't smoke, hate breathing other peoples' smoke, but I could care less if someone chooses to smoke - just not in my space is all I ask.

Traveling, in my opinion, means stepping away from my own personal comfort zone, and often means I will be exposed to things I wouldn't want to live with on my own turf. The flip side, of course, is that I will be exposed to amazing things I would never get to experience at home.

scdreamer: Yeah, this does seem to be a forum to vent frustrations all too often!
About the Cape Town airport and smoking - you were not suffering from jet lag or eyesight problems!
There is a marked area in the departures hall (only one I have noticed) and probably elsewhere in the airport building where people can squeeze together under a sort of 'canopy' which sucks the air upwards and hence also the smoke.
Strangest thing though - I saw children standing with their parents while they puffed away!!

I personally think it's a ridiculous contraption - if you are going to sit for 9 to 11 hours on a plane without a fag for heavens sake go and stick a patch on before you leave home - better still, stick 3 patches on!