Beth Anderson

Hi yall <BR> <BR>the other one was too long, I am putting this in bits and pieces... <BR> <BR>thought you may be interested in this exchange. I was discussing flying with a pilot friend of mine. I have been prepping to take flying lessons and had hoped to start this week, but they have grounded all VFR flights so that won't happen for some time... <BR> <BR>anyway, here is the exchange. the most recent bit is the most important, but if you read from the bottom up you can follow the convo... <BR> <BR>Godspeed. Don't be afraid to fly... <BR> <BR>Beth <BR> <BR>******* <BR> <BR>The thing we're all losing sight of is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Increase the marginal cost of terror by air, IE: make it a little harder, and they will take a path of lesser resistance. Airplanes make spectacular targets because of the mystique of flying, but there's nothing stopping them from finding another spectacular, unguarded target. <BR> <BR>This is not an aviation security issue. The pilots of those planes had an information problem. If they had known the hijackers were willing to kill themselves, the pilots would have taken whatever action necessary to defend or scuttle the plane. IE: <BR> <BR>(dump the cabin pressurization: hurts a lot and you pass out in about 15 seconds-think Payne Stewart. Perform aerobatics-yes, you can roll and probably loop a jetliner. At the very least, a few negative g pushovers and pull-ups will disrupt anyone standing on their feet. Remember the passengers are mostly seated with seatbelts on. Take off your seatbelt and your in for a wild ride. When the hijinks are through, the passengers are going to beat your ass.) <BR> <BR>The difference now is that anyone who tries to hijack a plane is on uncharted and unpredictable territory. The information problem was solved by the cell phone calls from the Pittsburgh airplane and that airplane never reached the target. <BR> <BR>They have certainly upped the ante and should be prepared for a much more vigorous defense of the cockpit, by air marshalls, pilots and even passengers. I don't think it will happen the same way again. <BR> <BR>My 2 cents. <BR> <BR>

Beth Anderson

<BR> <BR>&gt;&gt;&gt; "Anderson, Elizabeth" &lt;[email protected]&gt; 09/19/01 11:42AM &gt;&gt;&gt; <BR>yeah, my first thought on this is that natl may be SAFER than others - too <BR>soon to react on a takeoff... and quite frankly, a plane can go anywhere. <BR>they used dulles for this for pete's sake. why not close them ALL. gads. <BR> <BR>natl may not use planes which have as much fuel too right - to leave? <BR>shorter flights? <BR> <BR>I know this is supremely selfish of me, but my favorite park is the one at <BR>the end of the runway (you introduced me to it actually). I am there <BR>literally almost daily, watching the planes (my bike is in Ballston at work <BR>- I bike a lot, usually pass the airport) and I will be very sad to think I <BR>will never see the planes take off and land there again. <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>-----Original Message----- <BR>From: John David [mailto:[email protected]] <BR>Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2001 11:31 AM <BR>To: [email protected] <BR> <BR> <BR>National needs to re-open. From a logistical standpoint, an airliner is <BR>on/over the runway for 30-35 seconds. By the time a hijacker announces his <BR>presence, the plane is climbing over the Bay or the Blue Ridge at 210 kts or <BR>3.5nm/minute and is well out of the area. 7 minutes into the flight, they <BR>are past the 25nm boundary. Therefore, an aircraft leaving DCA is no more a <BR>hazard than one leaving BWI. <BR> <BR>The real problem is arrivals. There must be a way to authenticate that the <BR>aircraft is under the control of the pilots to guarantee there won't be a <BR>problem. I'm sure we could devise a method to do this. But the risk is <BR>probably overstated, since an arriving airliner has no more than about an <BR>hour's fuel, so its not the cherry target a departing trans-con flight is. <BR> <BR>John

Diane

I was forwarded this story, supposedly from someone named Terry. Makes some interesting points similar to your discussion, whether or not this really did happen: <BR> <BR>" I just wanted to drop you all a note and let you know that I arrived safe and sound into Dulles Airport tonight at about 6:00. It was an interesting flight. The airport in Denver was almost spooky, it was so empty and quiet. No one was in line for the security check point when I got there so that went fairly quickly, just x-ray of my bags and then a chemical test to be sure nothing explosive was on them. Then I waited 2 1/2 hours to board the plane. What happened after we boarded was interesting and thought I would share it with you. <BR> <BR>The pilot/captain came on the loudspeaker after the doors were closed. His speech went like this: First I want to thank you for being brave enough to fly today. The doors are now closed and we have no help <BR>from the outside for any problems that might occur inside this plane. As you could tell when you checked in, the government has made some changes to increase security in the airports. They have not, however, made any rules about what happens after those doors close. Until they do that, we have made our own rules and I want to share them with you. Once those doors close, we only have each other. The security has taken care of a threat like guns with all of the increased scanning,etc. Then we have the supposed bomb. If you have a bomb, there is no need to tell me about it, or anyone else on this plane; you are already in control. So, for this flight, there are no bombs that exist on this plane. <BR> <BR>Now, the threats that are left are things like plastics, wood, knives, and other weapons that can be made or things like that which can be used as weapons. Here is our plan and our rules. If someone or several people stand up and say they are hijacking this plane, I want you all to stand up together. <BR> <BR>Then take whatever you have available to you and throw it at them. Throw it at their faces and heads so they will have to raise their hands to protect themselves. The very best protection you have against knives are the pillows and blankets. Whoever is close to these people should then try to get a blanket over their head--then they won't be able to see. Once that is done, get them down and keep them there. Do not let them up. I will then land the plane at the closest place and we WILL take care of them. <BR> <BR>After all, there are usually only a few of them and we are 200+ strong! <BR>We will not allow them to take over this plane. I I find it interesting that the US Constitution begins <BR>with the words "We, the people" that's who we are, THE people and we will not be defeated. <BR> <BR>With that, the passengers on the plane all began to applaud, people had tears in their eyes, and we began the trip toward the runway. The flight attendant then began the safety speech. One of the things she said is that we are all so busy and live our lives at such a fast pace. She asked that everyone turn to their neighbors on either side and introduce themselves, tell each other something about your families and children, show pictures, whatever. She said "for today, we consider you family. We will treat you as such and ask that you do the same with us." Throughout the flight we learned that for the crew, this was their first flight since Tuesday's tragedies. It was a day that everyone leaned on <BR>each other and together everyone was stronger than any one person alone. <BR>It was quite an experience. <BR>You can imagine the feeling when that plane touched down at Dulles and we heard "welcome to Washington Dulles Airport, where the local time is <BR>5:40". Again, the cabin was filled with applause. <BR>

abc

Boy I sure hope lots of people read your post and mine. <BR> <BR>My husband is a pilot, I too, asked lots of questions. <BR>First, the thing about doing the rolls, or loops,.......... if they do this, anyone not buckled will not survive. All children will be seriously injured and most likely all the elderly as well. <BR>Even most healthy adults may suffer a heart attack just due to fear, not to mention the G's that could be made. <BR> <BR>The worst thing is the talk of decompressurizing. There is no way an elderly or baby will survive. <BR>Anyone sick with just a cold, forget it. <BR>There is no way to get the plane down fast enough for people to be ok. <BR>The oxygen in the masks only last a few minutes, depends on the plane you are on. <BR> <BR>Another point, closed doors, or rather reinforced doors. <BR>Most people do not know that pilots are not allowed to eat the same thing, in the case that one gets sick, say from food poisoning. <BR>What happens if both pilots pass out or anything that they are no longer able to fly? <BR>How will anyone know? How will the hostesses know? How will we get to them? <BR>It doesn't help to give a key to the head hostess, or give her a secret code to open the door. Any highjacker would know this and just put a knife to her throat. <BR> <BR>I liked what I heard about a flight that was still in the air at the time of the attacks. The captain and co-pilot talked and decided one would fly the plane and the other would hit the next person to open the door with the bat (they happen to have a baseball bat in the cockpit). The one with the bat would fight while the other would have landed the plane on the spot no matter where they were. <BR> <BR>IMO there has to be a way to have the doors closed and keep check that the pilots are always ok, such as maybe closed circuit tv (cameras). <BR>Let any fight take place outside the cockpit between crew or passengers, and let the pilots get the plane down on the ground. <BR> <BR>One of the biggest things, I don't understand why we have to let any people in the US that we know are linked to terrorists, or that we suspect to be so. <BR>Two of these pilots (tower 1 I beleive) came into the US using their real names. Our gov. knew who they were, and even had them under surveilance (some surveilance). <BR>Why let these people in our country? <BR>Free is one thing, but stupid. <BR>I don't want to be that free, keep these people out. <BR>

Cindy

Beth, if you feel like checking back with your pilot friend, I'd love to hear his thoughts on the security proposals being discussed in the media, such as air marshalls, carry-on baggage restrictions, etc. <BR> <BR>The only pilot I have heard discuss it was a retired pilot, and he said these precautions were important to him.

Beth Anderson

well, I have to say, one thought after reading ABC's post... <BR> <BR>it makes sense, but if the other option is certain fiery death of everyone on the plane versus shaking up a few people, I think that is a risk that should be taken. what else can you do? 100% dead, versus maybe no one dying?

Travel Girl

Keep the terrorists and those that fit the profile out. OUT!

nancy

Diane, <BR>Putting myself on that plane, envisioning the speech from the pilot, and the talk from the flight attendants. <BR>Gives me the chills, but in a good way. <BR>All flights should begin such as yours did. <BR>I think a speech like that would give me courage, and a feeling of safety. <BR>The pilots and attendants are also to be congratualted for their bravery in continuing to keep planes flying!! <BR> <BR>Thanks for passing it along!

Judy

Diane, I loved your post. It made me smile.... and that is a harder to do lately. Judy <BR>

micia

Though it is odd and scary to have to start a flight with this speech, I too, would like to hear it from now on. <BR>It would remind each person on board that we would all stick together to defeat any person trying to do us harm. <BR>I also agree fully that we should start keeping all these terrorists (and those fitting the profile) out of the US. Since I live overseas, it would be nice to see other countries do the same, and therefore, making any of these people stay home.

Profiler

Yes, of course we should keep terrorists out of the country. Easier said than done, of course, because all a terrorist has to do is go to the Texas/Arizona/California border and sneak across at night like everyone else. Add some forged documents, and it is quite easy to blend in. <BR> <BR>Also, I object to the idea of racial profiling and focusing security checks on people who look like Arabs. The next attack will look different from this one. We should be carefully examining everyone and everything that has to do with airplanes and airports. <BR> <BR>Imagine if we profile Arabs and target them for extra searches, and we let whites and others go by with a cursory check. Imagine that a terrorist poses as someone in the drug trade. The terrorist could trick or pay someone to smuggle a package onto a plane that is claimed to be drugs when it really is a bomb. <BR> <BR>No, the United States has lots of enemies, and not all of them look like Arabs (Una-Bomber, Tim McVeigh). Let's scrutinize everyone, regardless of race.

micia

I do not agree with profiling Arabs or any other nationality. <BR>I only agree with ABC that our government knows who most suspected terrorists are. They know who is suspected to be associated with Bin Laden and other terrorist organizations. <BR>I say, keep these out. <BR>I am not saying we have to start looking at every Arab, Indian, Iranian, etc. funny. <BR>Since I also heard the same thing on the news,as ABC, that one of those pilots were known to be associated to Bin Laden and even put him under survielance, what in the world did we let him in for? I would like us to not do so in the future. <BR>

Beth Anderson

another pilot friend of mine speaks... <BR> <BR>********* <BR> <BR>Well.. I struggle to imagine what must have transpired in those cabins and <BR>cockpits. I can only guess that an air of naive trust (which we all normally <BR>maintain) must have been present and thus allowed the events to unfold... it <BR>is likely that the hijackers were clothed in pilot uniforms to mask their <BR>intentions. Of course the underlying fatal flaw was everyones lack of <BR>conceptualizing the use of an airliner as a missile. Had that concept <BR>entered anyones mind prior to impact.. I think the events would have been <BR>far different. That idea is endorsed by the crash of the Pittsburgh <BR>airliner. <BR> <BR>From a pilot perspective... I doubt everything... from weather, to aircraft <BR>systems, gauges, engines, to other aircraft... and if I were flying a <BR>passenger jet... I'd doubt the passengers as well.. not because Im <BR>paranoid... but for the sake of safety. We have all learned that flying is <BR>inherently deadly in nature. Thus... I feel it must be treated that way. I <BR>dont fault the pilots or crews certainly... they were just doing their job. <BR>But personally Im very sensitive to any activities outside of normal <BR>operations. So at the earliest sign of suspicion I would take whatever <BR>action necessary to maintain control of the situation. This philosophy will <BR>now be engrained in the lives of all pilots from here on out... and in <BR>future hijack situations may lead to immediate evasive action such as <BR>depressurizing the cabin. (Note: At 20,000ft there is approximately 5-10mins <BR>of useful consciousness. At 30,000ft there is up to 70secs of useful <BR>consciousness and at 40,000ft that becomes 10secs!) Checkout <BR>http://www.horizon-sfa.ch/CBT.htm for a good diagram of this.) I also <BR>support the idea of armed "Sky Marshalls" on board aircraft along with <BR>securing the cockpit door during all flight operations. <BR> <BR>I am in favor of closing National or perhaps relocating it to east of the <BR>city. Its in a very congested area under any circumstance. <BR> <BR>Gotta run... <BR> <BR>Pete

Capo

A now-retired pilot, who had flown in Vietnam and then went on to fly for American Airlines (often flying AA Flight 11 out of Logan), was being interviewed on TV program last night. He said that whereas in the military they were taught to <I>never</I> let anyone gain control of their aircraft, to fight back however possible, when he started flying commercially he was told just the opposite, to <I>not</I> fight back, to do whatever any hijackers requested. <BR> <BR>This, of course, stemmed from the assumption that existed before last Tuesday, that hijackers weren't going to use the planes as flying bombs. Since we've tragically now seen differently, I assume the way pilots will be instructed to deal with any future hijackers on commercial flights will likely change, and perhaps change radically.

Steve Mueller

<BR>Diane, <BR> <BR>The message you forwarded was spookily similar to one I received from a colleague earlier today. Even the departure and arrival destinations are the same. The only difference is in the number of passengers implied. Here is the message. <BR> <BR>--------------------------------------- <BR> <BR>My trip on United to D.C. last night was quite interesting and very different from any other flight I have ever had. <BR> <BR>On my drive in, Pena Blvd. was empty. The inside and outside parking lots were <BR>about 15% full. The first 25% of the inside parking (nearest the terminal building) are now blocked off. <BR> <BR>The inside of the terminal was like a ghost town. ID checks were done at the counter, before security screening, during screening, and before boarding. U.S. Marshalls are visible. <BR> <BR>There was an obvious absence of families. The 777 aircraft had about 35 people on board. <BR> <BR>Once on board, the pilot, in a very serious tone and for a whole 10 minutes, told us what we need to do to stop any terrorist, hijacker, or bomber. The <BR>pilot was very blunt. He told us it was our job to stop any attempt at taking over the aircraft. The pilot asked us to surround the persons and throw heavy <BR>objects at them. He then mentioned that we should wrap ourselves, arms in particular, with blankets so we would <BR>not be stabbed. He also indicated that if the person(s) said they had a bomb to ignore it since it is unlikely that this would get through the magnetron (screening system). The crew was not going to leave the cockpit. The pilot then mentioned that once we had stopped the event, we (passengers) could do anything we wanted to the perpetrator(s) even if it meant that the person(s) would "never enter the criminal justice system". This whole lecture was very serious. The tension was thick and the flight attendants were very nervous. <BR> <BR>The pilot did end the speech with the usual closing "thank you for flying the friendly skies". It was not meant to be comical. <BR> <BR>Dulles airport was dead quiet and the D.C. hotels are empty. <BR> <BR>In D.C., the overall mood is serious. <BR> <BR>Although the flight was odd in many ways, the security measures are welcomed. <BR> <BR>Bill <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>

Peter

I'll just add this comment which someone has made and with which I do agree:"The reason the hijacking succeeded is they were the first where the hijackers were taking a plane as a weapon and were going to die in the deal. No one will ever let a hijacking proceed from now on. Passengers may be hurt in the fight, but definitely the hijackers will die. The pilots will not let the plane be taken over as they were instructed to do previously. You think the pilots who are strapped in will not take evasive maneuvers with the plane that have the people trying to walk down the isle flying around the ceiling? <BR>Pilots, crew, airport security will not go easy anymore!" This quick reaction was already visible on the 4th plane highjacked where passangers learned what happened at WTC. This was a first but also I think very last - esspecially in USA.

middle easterner

Not all arabs can be profiled. There are many with light colored hair and blue eyes. Don't think that they all have funny turbans and cover themselves and work in 7-eleven just as all Americans do not resemble the cast of Baywatch.

Dallas, Texas

Reading the posts from airline pilots and what they are saying has given me a better feeling about flying than I had before! You guys certainly get my vote!!

Tony Hughes

There were a number of raised eyebrows by the staff onboard my flight from Vancouver to Glasgow on Friday. A passenger had made it on with a (metal) knife and was caught peeling an orange with it, oblivious to the new regulations.