My husband and I are planning a trip to Europe for June of next year. We are planning on flying into Amsterdam for 1 night then renting a car and driving to the Black Forest in Germany for 3 nights, then to Zurich for another 4 night, then on to Milian and Viennce for another 5 nights. Is this to much driving for 2 weeks? Also,what are the roads like between Zurich and Viennce?

You owe it to yourself to consult either www.viamichelin.com or www.mappy.com to plan this os any other substantial driving trip.

I think it is probably okay. Amsterdam to the Black Forest appears to be your longest stretch, and you get that over with right away.

But one concern could be the drop charge for taking a Dutch car to Italy to leave it there.

You might consider breaking this trip up into a German rental (taking the train from Amsterdam to a pick-up point in Germany), dropping it off in Munich. Then an Austrian rental (so many more good destinations in Austria than going into Switzerland for Zurich) starting in Salzburg, swing down into northern Italy (substitute Verona and the Lake Garda/Trentino area for Milan?) and finish up in Graz. Very cheap to fly home from Graz, thanks to ryanair.com service to London.

Best wishes,

Rex

I believe that your proposed trip is too complicated (as Rex has suggested) and too much for two weeks.

You have almost a year to plan this trip and in that time you should be able to refine it.

My starting suggestion is to create a loop, going in a roughly circular pattern arriving back where you started from. Thus your flight is a round-trip one and the car return is simplified.

On a map, find the center point and rotate from there (never backtracking of course).

While I appreciate the endorsing comments, I do not agree that a loop is the best way to travel in Europe, nor that flying in and out of the same city is a good idea. Inherently spends too much time in INTRA-Europe travel.

Countries like Germany, France - - and to a lesser extent Italy or even Austria are made for coming in at one end and departing from the other end, with a car rental between the two.

Rex...anitas is picking up a car in Amsterdam to see Zurich and Venice. Does this make sense to you?

For that, I simply say land in Zurich and loop through her targets in a logical sequence i.e. Venice, Milan, Black Forest. Or land in Milan.

What do you mean by "INTRA-Europe"? How can you say that a country is "made for coming in one end and departing from the other end"? Besides, we're not talking about a solitary country here.

I recently did a loop from Malpensa: Cinque Terre, Veneto, Val D'Aosta and points in between; one part of one country. Another year I'll do a loop from Rome: Tuscany, Umbris, Amalfi, etc.

Am I right or wrong that one gets better air fares going round trip to the same airport and better rental deals using the car for precisely one, two or three weeks (not paying daily rates) and returning the car to the same desk?

Too much driving and wasted rental days when you won't need a car in Zurich, milan and Venice. The train and maybe one car rental would do the trick.

<<Am I right or wrong that one gets better air fares going round trip to the same airport and better rental deals using the car for precisely one, two or three weeks (not paying daily rates) and returning the car to the same desk?>>

You are wrong on two out of three.

"Open jaw" air travel is frequently a bargain - - often cheaper to fly into A, travel (INTRA-Europe) to B and fly home from B - - as compared to fly into A, travel from A to B and BACK again, and then fly home from A.

Car rental rarely has any drop charges for returning ANYWHERE in the SAME country as the pick-up.

You are right that a 7 day rental costs about the same as 5 times the daily rental rate.

I based my proposal on the assumption that "anitas" PREFERS to have a rented car, and that two one-week rentals could be a better deal than one two-week rental, with a pickup in Amsterdam and a drop-off in Venice.

Is "INTRA-Europe travel" a hard term to decipher? Almost every trip has fve major budget items:

Travel TO Europe
Travel WITHIN Europe ("Intra-Europe travel&quot
Lodging
Meals and beverages
Attractions

Intra-Europe travel is one area where too many people spend carelessly, and it can add up to be a component as expensive as (if not more so than) any of the other five.

Rex, I'm here to learn and with respect I ask...

Taking this case in point (and assume a trans-Atlantic flight), are you saying that the summation of the various components starting in Amsterdam add up to a lesser cost than the one I suggested? After making one's way to Graz, one would come back to JFK via London by Ryanair and then some other airline I presume. Three airlines, two car rentals and a couple of trains in total, is that right?

Aside from the cost issue, which you seem to know more about than do I, would you not agree that this is a complex plan?

<<are you saying that the summation of the various components starting in Amsterdam add up to a lesser cost than the one I suggested? >>

I'm saying that it could well be cheaper - - at least in principle - - but the main savings might be time; the financial savings might not be huge.

<<would you not agree that this is a complex plan?>>

I guess I would agree to that. I think that I belong to a certain population of travelers who like tackling logistical "puzzles" exactly for the challenge they present to cobble together one "good value" purchase with another. Multiple modes of transportation do not deter me.

Having said that, the best plan might be to use train a little more, and go withOUT a car altogether for parts of this itnerary, as has already been suggested. I throw out ideas for how to have a car and avoid certain costs (in both time and money) - - taking it at face value that some travelers simply prefer the freedom and flexibility that comes with having a car.

To those who point out that there are certain costs and headaches to having a car as well (parking in some cities is at the top of that list) - - I can scarcely disagree.

Rex, thanks for your response.

I think I'll draw this conclusion:

That you're one of a population of travelers who travels light, with a minimum of luggage/baggage, thereby enabling you to easily adjust to the multiple modes of transportation available. Not all of us (myself included) are able to do that.

I think that Rex and Tuck have driven anitas away.

I think it unlikely that "anitas" has been driven away by this dialogue which has remained quite civil.

More likely that she is unaware that replies come here - - often by the dozens - - in as little as 24 or 48 hours.

Or that she has not yet learned how to relocate her own posts.

I am generally known to travel with 40-50 pounds of personal stuff, in one "rollaboard" and one small-medium duffel (my "carry-on&quot. I can walk for any reasonable distance, "carrying" (rolling behind me) carrying all my own stuff - - or lift it over my head as needed, or go up and down stairs ( afew flights) without having a heart attack. I have posted often on the criteria I recommend for traveling "light" - - and i think that many people pack as light as I do, or even much lighter.

I have never been deterred by these multiple modes of transportation whether traveling solo, with my wife (alone), or when leading a group that has on some occasions, numbered as many as 16 (mostly 50-60 year olds) or 13 (which was 11 kids, aged 13 to 22).

If your aggage is weighing down your options when you travel, then you ought to try unburdening yourself some. You will find it very comfortable and liberating.

Rex, it's too bad no one else is joining in - anitas, where are you?

While it's apparent you're a veteran traveler, many of those who pose a question needing help here are rookies.

To them I would say K.I.S.S. and that there's something to be said for having things convenient and stress-free when traveling in an unfamiliar environment.

I guess if I were doing my traveling alone, I too would have a minimum of ballast...and there'd just be a few more trips to the laundromat.

It does indeed appear that we have our own little dialogue going here.

In general, I would give much the same advice to those making their first trip to Europe as I would to those making their third or tenth. Often what might seem &quot;complicated&quot; is actually just <i>unfamiliar</i>. I think that that is what &quot;we&quot; (the <i>relatively</i> more verteran) are familiar - - to help make the unfamiliar seem less intimidating to those who have not experienced it before.

Eventually, some travelers - - and again, I will speak for myself, thinking that there are others who view this as I do - - seek out places and things that will present us with some unfamiliarity. Just so that we can still experience what it was like when it was all much less familiar to us!