rachelchism

I will be traveling around Europe for a month with my friend in mid June. The flight was free and many of the hotels will be. I have a budget of 4,000. This will be for some accommodations (air bnb, nicer hostels, or guest homes), food, travel, going out. My friend and I both love to eat and drink, beach, hike, nature, going out, etc. Despite reading every travel book, sample itinerary, etc. I'm still struggling to plan this. This is my first extended Europe trip, and I don't want to make the mistake of brig overly ambitious. Here is a VERY tentative intinarary. A lot has already gone into planning this but I still have a lot of questions.
Day 1 overnight in Milan
Day 2-5: Paris
Day 5-7: thinking of hitting Lyon/Annecy, or Alsace en route to Italy
Day 7-9 Cinque Terre
Day 9-13: Florence and Tuscany region
Day 13:Travel To Rome and fly to Malta via Ryan Air, which operates daily flights. No interest in seeing Rome for a second time.
Day 17: Fly back to Rome and travel to Ancona to catch ferry to Croatia. Arrive in Split next morning
Day 18-23: a few nights in split, hvar, and Dubrovnik. Will be taking day trips to see the lakes/ waterfalls and possibly more islands. Korcula is also a possibility.
Day 24-27: Slovenia, Lake Bled, other attractions. I fear I haven't given myself enough time here.
Day 27-29: End trip in Milan with day trip to Lake Como. Possibly a day trip in Venice.

There are a lot of places I know I'm leaving out. i had to choose between doing Malta and Southern Italy/ Amalfi Coast. No idea if that is the right decision. There are so many beautiful places in Italy. As for France, should I do Lyon and Annecy or Strasbourgh and Colmar? Any help is much appreciated.

PalenQ

Well just some resources to get a fix on train travel - info-laden sites - www.seat61.com (great info on discounted tickets if you book far in advance); www.budgeteuropetravel.com and www.ricksteves.com.

You could go thru Switzerland to get to get to Italy - and see the gorgeous Alps - the Interlaken area would be a wonderful stop about half way between Paris and Milan.

I would move Paris to the end of the trip - and start your trip in Milan and then Italy, etc - fly to Paris and fly home from there.

Whathello

You lose me when counting the same day twice.

In your itinerary, you are days 2-5 in Paris
Then you are days 7-9 cinque terre.

Yet you say 5-7 Annecy. For me you have basically day 6 in Annecy.

You list about 9 places - I should say areas in 29 days.
29/9 = 3 and something lost in the translation.

3 days per area. less travel time - makes 2,something days. Quite rushed.

Andrew

If you can get the times and dates to work out, you might try to fly from Rome right back to Dubrovnik after you arrive from Malta. There are direct flights on some days. Then you could work your way north from Dubrovnik (and skip the long Rome to Ancona to Split to Dubrovnik trek) instead of going south, then all the way north back to Slovenia. At worst, though, if you have to head south to Dubrovnik, you can fly from there up to Zagreb on Croatia Airlines fairly cheaply, I think, and then take a train over to Ljubljana then shuttle over to Venice from there.

rachelchism

@whathello. I appreciate your feedback, and I understand where you're coming from. Thought I said 5-7, I understand that it will likely be a day and a half or so. I think for the most part I covered the length of time I desired, but could probably add a few in Paris, Lyon, and maybe Cinque Terre. A lot of the places I will be seeing are doable by day. Are there any places in particular where you think I've really chipped myself on time? I think if anything I will cut Slovenia out and only go to Lake Bled for one day.

rachelchism

Andrew,

Thank you for that. I've been exhausting options to make this travel possible around Italy/Malta/Croatia. I think that sounds like a fantastic idea, actually. It will save time and then traveling upwards would make a lot of sense? Do you think I'm giving myself adequate time in Croatia? We will likely be spending a lot of time here relaxing on the coast line, drinking, and eating.

Have you been to Malta before and would you recommend it?

PalenQ

How are you going between Milan and Paris - there is an overnight train that for young folks especially could be a blast and save daytime travel time and the cost of a night in a hostel, etc.

Or if you start your trip from Milan and do everything as planned then fly back to Paris you could take the overnight Thello train to Milan (www.thello.com - cheap advance tickets available for as low as 45 euros or so p.p.)

Andrew

I have not been to Malta.

There is more to see in Croatia (and Slovenia) that is worth seeing than you have time for. So you'll have to decide what to cut out. But you can't see everything.

So what it really comes down to is: what do you really want to see between Dubrovnik and Venice? And here you are getting into people's preferences and different opinions. I can offer mine.

I loved Dubrovnik, though it is small and very touristy. Korcula I liked but might have liked better in June (I visited at the end of season in October and it was dead). I have not been to Hvar - but personally, I would limit your time to one island. Some people love Split but I didn't; half a day to explore Diocletian's Palace would have been adequate for me.

Further north, I found Plitvice Lakes National Park (inland, 2hrs south of Zagreb by car) an absolute highlight of Croatia, with its beautiful turquoise-colored lakes and dozens of little waterfalls. In northern Croatia I enjoyed Istria, especially the charming fishing village of Rovinj (touristy now). But it's very Italian-feeling (it was part of Italy for a while), and you will go to Italy anyway.

But I think Slovenia is my favorite. It's a neat little country that isn't very touristy (by Americans, anyway). Lake Bled is nice, but it is a developed resort. Ljubljana is my favorite - a charming little city that feels almost like it came out of a fairy tale, with beautiful architecture, cute bridges over a little river, and a castle on the hill. Yet Ljubljana is still a real city and bustling college town. If I had to choose between Bled and Ljubljana, I'd choose Ljubljana in a heartbeat myself. But not everyone loves cities. (Bled is an easy day trip from Ljubljana, though.)

If you want to decide between Slovenia and other coastal destinations, ask yourself how much time you really need on the sea. It sounds like you'll already have a lot. I really recommend at least a night in Ljubljana. It's a small city and doesn't take long to explore, but I wouldn't skip it.

I would personally not bother with Venice unless you are planning to spend at least a night there. If you stop during the day, expect big mobs of tourists and lines everywhere. It feels a little like Disneyland. That's the way it was on my last visit when I stopped for a few hours off the train. But I still love Venice, because I'd spent nights there on previous trips, and it is lovely at night and in the morning when most of the tourists aren't there. I believe you miss the best part of the experience if you see Venice only during the daytime.

kja

I'm sure you would see some wonderful things with this plan, but you would be spending a substantial portion of your time in transit rather than actually seeing anything. Are you sure you would have time to see and do the things you want? Have you plotted your options out on a calendar with attention to opening and closing times?

Since you asked specifically about Ljubljana and Lake Bled, you are, IMO, right on the edge of what might be feasible, and definitely in the range of "oh, if we'd only given it even just a little more time."

You might be able to enjoy the Cinque Terre in just a day and a half -- if the weather cooperates.

As for time in Croatia, I spent 3 weeks there (not counting time in neighboring countries) and felt rushed.

It really depends on what YOU want to see and experience, and how much time you are willing to give up to transportation and other time costs associated with relocation in order to have very limited time in any particular destination. If it helps (and it might not!) I choose to skip some places entirely, even if I am sure I would enjoy them rather than trying to fit them all in. I’ve realized that if I can return to a region, the LAST thing that I am likely to want to do is spend my time re-tracing all that extra travel time so that I can go back and finally see the things I skipped the first time. In fact, I might end up not returning specifically because it would mean wasting so much time going from place to place! JMO.

Hope that helps!

rachelchism

Dear Andrew and KJA,

I appreciate your advice immensely. Perhaps you would be surprised to learn that most young Americans pack even more into an itinerary, but I digress, I have simply packed my too full. I think I'll have to consider dropping places all together. I thank you both so much for this feedback. I am soliciting as much as I possibly can.

kja

"Perhaps you would be surprised to learn that most young Americans pack even more into an itinerary"

Maybe most don't have the wisdom to ask experienced travelers for input. ;-) Good move, rachelchism! I think your trip will be better, no matter what you decide, for making your decisions with this input in mind.

Andrew

There is nothing wrong with a rushed itinerary, as long as you have timed out how much time you have for each place, how much time it takes to travel from place to place, etc. We all have different styles. On my last trip to Croatia and Bosnia, last year, I stayed in 13 towns in 16 nights!!! But I do tend to have a faster travel style. (I had a car, and I had done a lot of planning to know what to expect ahead of time.)

For example, if I were traveling from Dubrovnik to Ljubljana, here's how I might plan a brisk itinerary (without a car):

Dubrovnik (2 nights)
Bus (or catamaran) to Korcula
Korcula (2 nights)
Catamaran to Split (arrive Split early in the morning, so you'd have a full day there)
Split (1 night)
Bus to Plitvice
Plitvice (1 night)
Bus to Zagreb
Train to Ljubljana
Ljubljana (2 nights) = including day trip to Bled
Shuttle or bus to Venice

That's eight nights for all of Croatia and Slovenia - which is definitely rushed, especially between Split and Ljubljana), but having done all of these connections (except the buses between Split, Plitvice, and Zagreb), I know it is doable. But others would find that not nearly enough time and would prefer to slow it down and see fewer places. No choice is right - it's up to you.

rachelchism

Andrew,

You have been so helpful. That itinerary seems doable and incorporates all of our interests. I can't wait to travel to Croatia and Slovenia. Both will be a first for me!

kja

I agree that Andrew's suggested itinerary is doable -- IF it meets your interests and needs and if you are willing to skip the things that you would not be able to fit into this plan. It would NOT meet MY interest in this area, and again, would leave ME wondering why I didn't find a way to give X or Y or X even just a LITTLE extra time. JMO! It's really something that ONLY you can decide.

I also agree that there are no right or wrong answers -- isn't it wonderful that we all travel with different interests and preferences?

Andrew

Rachel, you might want to stop over in Zagreb for a few hours between the bus from Plitvice and the train (or bus) to Ljubljana and explore Zagreb a little.

However, if you DON'T want to stop in Zagreb, you might look into a shuttle service called GoOpti to see what it would cost for them to shuttle you from Plitvice directly to Ljubljana. (I have not used them but hear good things about GoOpti, a Slovenian company.) Go to their website and see if you can find out what they would charge for the service; their price varies depending on how many others might be going at the same time if you do a ride share. If it's not that expensive, might be worth doing.

It would really be best to explore Plitvice early in the morning (opens at 7am in season) to see it before it gets crowded and plan to depart by late afternoon. This is where a shuttle service might work better than going through Zagreb: it might get you into Ljubljana early enough to enjoy dinner (the city is ideal at night in my view). Or if you want to stuff an extra night in there, you could stop overnight in Zagreb instead and just use the bus/train connection.

There are overpriced but convenient hotels in the park itself at Plitvice (I stayed at one, the Hotel Plitvice, a few years ago). There are also plenty of B&Bs (often called "Sobe" in Croatia) near the park, but you can't walk right into the park from most of them, which is why staying at one of the park hotels is so convenient.

kja

I did NOT find it necessary to visit the Plitvice Lakes starting particularly early (and thank goodness for that, as I am NOT a morning person!) -- in fact, I waited until most tour groups had left the lower region at about 10 a.m. and then stepped in behind them, letting them trot ahead while I took my time.

I strongly recommend staring at the lowest part of the park, so you are FACING the waterfalls as you proceed and so you are moving WITH or BEHIND other tourists, rather than trying to pass them at every step of the way. That must be incredibly annoying!

And of course, some of the lodging options outside the park offer convenient ways to get there -- no need, at least when I was there, to stay right beside the park.