Just a reminder.......................
 

I just got back from Rome again last night and thought that I would let you know about something that needs to be reminded to all who are traveling (especially overseas?). I went to the US Embassy in Rome to have them sew more passport pages into my passport while I waited. While waiting in the embassy, I came across a woman who was rather beatup and in a semi upper body cast trying to get another passport because her other one was stolen.It turns out that she is 83(looked much younger than that) who was traveling through Sicily with her niece of about 50.Her husband had passed away but had been Sicilian so she wanted to come over and visit the relatives and the country he loved so much. They were in Catania when she was mugged for her purse. She had all her travelers checks,about 400 euros in cash plus the 250 euros that she had just gotten out of an ATM with passport,driver's license,etc. taken. She was about 20 feet from the hotel (ironically I have stayed at this hotel in Catania and it is in a very quiet residential area) when the incident occurred. She refused to give up her purse and was dragged a half block she said(won't let go of the purse) before he got it away from her. People in the hotel (including her niece heard her screams and came running). I am sharing this because I have more and more people on my flights lately who have never been overseas(alot of cruises in Europe) and do not understand about "personal space and being aware of people and surroundings" especially at ATM's.I see them being VERY careless with their passports on the plane and sometimes not thinking that they are going to countries where they do not speak the language, money differences,etc. combined with major jetlag upon arrival.They say they "know" but they really don't when its their first time overseas.Remember to always take someone with you to "ride mental shotgun" while you are at an ATM.DON'T take everything in your purse or backpack when you are out.Look for people that are in your area of the ATM and then seem to be walking behind you on the street.The woman said that the guy had followed her from the ATM. Ironically, the poor woman said that this was the first time that she had not photocopied her personal info(passport,id's,credit cards) and taken it with her-would have saved alot of time and effort.I know that this has been addressed soooooooo many times on this board but I just wanted to remind everyone that you have to be vigilant about your personal safety when out and about.(On a personal note, she still loves Sicily .)

Oh - that poor woman! Another reason to use a MONEY BELT. Even if I were mugged the most they would get would be 1 credit card (or 1 ATM card), maybe &euro;100 at most, and my cosmetics case and water bottle. No reason to fight for a purse if it doesn't hold all your worldly goods <u>and</u> your passport too.

Nothing else of value is usually in my handbag - oh except a camera sometimes

Oh, this is awful, poor woman!

Thanks for reminder, DutyFree!

Hi dutyfree, thank goodness this poor woman did not end up with a broken hip! I agree 100% when getting money from an ATM.

Also, I remember back in the 1970's..purses were being sold with some kind of a metal bar through the strap so that the strap couldn't be cut. Friends of ours in Italy told us that is dangerous as if someone tries to cut the strap and they can't one can get dragged (especially if the thief is on a Vespa or some type of motorscooter) and consequently can really get hurt. That made sense to me. I never wear my purse with the strap going across my torso for the same reason. I just have the strap over my shoulder. If they want the purse they can have it, much better than getting injured. All of my women friends in Italy hold their purses the same way..strap over one shoulder.

TTT for the weekend crowd?

LoveItaly, Purse with a metal strap is still sold at Magellan or Travel Smith. I've thought of buying one. Not now. Thanks, Joan

I wonder if (and why) a typical thief would persist after discovering that a purse strap didn't yield to whatever implement they failed to cut it with.

Wouldn't they be more likely to move on to a softer target rather than risk being injured <i>themselves</i>? Newton's Laws of Motion (equal and opposite) apply on motorscooters, too.

Hi chatham, the subject came up because I didn't have one and started asking friends while I was in Italy where I could buy a good looking one and thus the conversations took place. I almost forgot about it until I read dutyfree's thread. What a horrible experience for that woman!!

I, like most of us, do not put a lot in my purse. I have a photocopy of my passport, some money, one credit card and one of my ATM cards if I know I will be needing it that day. Tissue, comb etc. Consequently if a thief wants my purse I would not be happy of course but hopefully I wouldn't be injured. If travelling by train I put what I will need that day in a cosmetic bag. I put my small wallet, passport etc. in seperate zippered pockets inside my purse. Of course if my entire purse was stolen I would lose everything but there is no way to 100% protect one valuables. Travelling light sure helps though IMO. And I am trying to improve on that!!

What an awful experience for that poor lady. My heart goes out to her. It makes me glad that I wear that money belt and keep money, credit and ATM cards in seperate places.

It does bring up a question, though. I usually travel with other people, so we can cover eachother at ATM's, but what would you do if you were traveling solo?

Johanna

To answer the question about why the thief would persist, it is well known that the more a victim struggles to keep whatever is being taken, the more likely it is to be really valuable.

That may or may not be true (and saying &quot;it is well known&quot; doesn't make it valid). The thief's calculus includes not only the value of the target, but also the difficulty of getting it, chances of apprehension, and odds of injury (see Newton, above).

The last three of the factors mentioned depend on the differential between the strength and fitness of the parties. If an 80-something has something that a 20-something wants, I don't think the topic under discussions matters much. But a fit 30-year old woman (it seems to me) stands a much better chance of keeping her belongings if they're in a purse with a reinforced strap carried cross-chest than otherwise.

Well, I guess it's whatever choice you want, but I believe that 'there is always a first time' and bo be 'better safe than sorry'. For me that means wearing a moneybelt as ghastly as it seems to some people. I'd rather put up with its discomfort and whatnot than to wear none or leave my belongings in a hotel safe.

I have heard about making copies of the passport. Which do you carry when out seeing the sites though? Do you carry the photo copy or the actual passport? Silly question I am sure, but I am traveling to England next May... 8-}

Horrific, dutyfree, but I understand you wanting to share the info.

Cwojo99, when siteseeing, you carry the copy with you, and the original is stashed away in your hotel safe. If your room doesn't have a safe, the concierge of the hotel should be happy to put a sealed envelope with your passport in it into the hotel safe. When you check out, ask for it back, and s/he will hand you the original sealed envelope.

BC

I carry my passport in my moneybelt. The copy is locked up at the hotel.

As a solo traveler, I make sure I am very AWARE of where I use the ATM. I also don't keep the excess cash in my purse. (The bathrooms at McDonald's come in useful.. drop in and put your spare cash in your moneybelt)

And of course the most important part..

NOTHING in that purse, money belt etc. is worth your life, just give it up. The story dutyfree posts could have had a much worse ending up to and including death... nothing in your wallet is worth that!

Terrible story.
My husband is one of those who just doesn't think about/worry about theft. When he arrived in Rome 2 weeks ago he left his passport in the cab. The cab driver went back to the hotel looking for my husband. Hubbie wasn't there (didn't know the passport was lost) but this cab driver persisted, found him and returned the passport. Just a note to say that there are truly wonderful people everywhere and sometimes some people are just lucky, and some people, like this woman, are just not.

Weezie, that is a very nice story.

My Dad, I'm sorry to say, is not very cautious when he travels. Last year we were on the Paris metro and I saw his passport hanging out of his jacket pocket. I felt bad for this, but I had to give him quite a &quot;talking to&quot; about guarding his passport, and I insisted he either keep it in a money belt or in the hotel safe. He's very lucky I saw it before a pickpocket did.

The first time I was in Rome (mid-1990's), our very seasoned tour guide told us sh had just had her purse grabbed off her shoulder the previous week. As she crossed the street, the thief, a passenger on the back of a scooter, grabbed the shoulder strap of her purse and pulled her down into the street, dragging her a bit before she could let go. Her advise was NOT to cross your bag over your head because you could be killed if they grab the bag you are wearing.

Same trip, a Spanish nun behind me in line at the Vatican Museum was in an arm cast. She'd been mugged at Pisa two days previously.

I ALWAYS wear a money belt.

Paper copies are fine, but a good backup is to scan your passport at home and email it to yourself. If lost/stolen you can open email at an internet cafe or your hotel, print the passport copy in color, and have proof for the replacement at the nearest Embassy or Consulate.

&quot;...a passenger on the back of a scooter, grabbed the shoulder strap of her purse and pulled her down into the street, dragging her a bit before she could let go...&quot;

You mean an adult female's total mass on one end of the strap wouldn't have unseated a scooter passenger pulling on the other end? I'd like to see the physics of that encounter analyzed. Really, I would.

cwojo, it's very unlikely you'll need to show even the photocopied passport when you're in the UK. There just aren't that many occasions when you need to show ID (unless you're planning on opening a bank account or some such).

&gt;&gt; You mean an adult female's total mass on one end of the strap wouldn't have unseated a scooter passenger pulling on the other end? I'd like to see the physics of that encounter analyzed. Really, I would. &lt;&lt;

Same here...

Passepartout, I don't think dramatic license lends itself to physics analysis. That said, I think we can all safely assume that the poster meant that the victim was thrown off-balance by the sudden tug on the purse strap and, in the ensuing moments, felt compelled to run several steps behind the scooter in an attempt to regain balance. This would certainly feel like being 'dragged', if only through the air.

Meanwhile, back to the topic: I do feel for the old lady. That said, if one is going to travel at 83, one needs to remember that one cannot expect to win a contest of (physical) wills, not to mention that at any age, one has to remember that the value of one's wellbeing exceeds the contents of one's purse. While we can do what we can to protect ourselves from thieves, including moneybelts, there is always a point at which one must be ready to make discretion the better part of valour. For me, that comes when someone mugs me for my moneybelt, as happened to some unfortunate student in Madrid's Atocha station....)

Passepartout, you really are a bore.

To passepartout et al...
It's a little irritating how many people on this message board feel the need to attack other posters.
A few years ago in Paris I watched in horror from the top of a tour bus as a woman was dragged by a guy on the back of a scooter. The woman did not let go - she really didn't have a chance to extricate her arm - but she fell to the ground on her back and was dragged several feet - in front of our bus actually - before the guy gave up and let go. It was very terrifying to watch. I did not think to analyse the physics of the encounter, nor did my husband who happens to have a degree in physics. To those of you who want details to be able to convince yourselves I'm not making this up, our bus was at a stop and the woman was part of a group standing on the sidewalk. My husband and I turned only as the woman screamed but my daughter actually saw the guy walk towards the woman, grab her purse then jump onto the back of his friends bike. The guy was not unseated by the woman's weight as they rode off, but he did eventually let go of the purse.

These things do happen. Not sure what you can do to avoid them 100%. This woman was holding her bag on one shoulder only. I think that makes your bag look like an easier target to grab. I just try to always be aware of my surroundings and take reasonable precautions.

Dramatic license. I see.

Sorry if we don't meet everyone's need for stimulation.

It's truly sickening to hear stories like this. Attacking anyone is horrible, but an older person to me is far more despicable. It was noted she was traveling with a 50 something niece. Where was she in all of this? Couldn't she have come to her aunt's aid, or at least shouted at her to &quot;let go?&quot;

I thought the above remark, &quot;if one is going to travel at 83, one needs to remember that one cannot expect to win a contest of (physical) wills&quot; was interesting. It's so very easy to be judgmental when you're young! Would settling in at the old folks' home be preferable? Until faced with a situation like this, you can't predict how you would respond.

Passepartout--not all thieves are brilliant logicians.

No one said they were (although I imagine the good ones have a keen sense of what's possible and what isn't - such as essaying a second attempt to cut a strap that didn't yield the first time).

I was simply speculating on the physics. Anyone lacking the desire (or ability) to discuss this in a neutral way can go talk about knockoff purses or something.

Passepartout - if you really wanted to discuss physics (yawn), why are you on this forum? Surely you can hold your own with the scientists on another forum. The discussion here is about mugging whilst abroad. Get it, sweetie?

Really? I thought the discussion here was about offensive threats when traveling, defensive postures, and physical means of protecting one's safety and property.

I'm thinking in terms of developing &quot;what to do if your purse is grabbed&quot; sort of advice, rather than the <i>ad hominem</i> wangling that began when you arrived.

Sweetie.

Passepartout, what are your credentials in physics? I have none whatsoever, but I seem to remember that momentum figures into the equation somewhere. Since I saw the woman dragged on her back with my own eyes - something you don't quickly forget - and since my 2 year old 25lb grandson is quite capable of knocking me (body mass of 125 lbs) off my feet if he runs at me hard enough, I think you should give up on the physics speculation. Please.

It doesn't require a PhD to understand what F=MA means. But Newton's Third Law trumps. Equal and opposite reaction, remember?

If an assailant's momentum causes a force of x pounds to be applied to the purse strap (and its owner), the same x is applied to the assailant. This tends to pull the purse-wearer over as well as the thief off his seat. The greater mass wins, but both are displaced.

If you don't want to discuss this, just don't respond. (Duh.)

If you are impressed by Latin and italics, maybe you need to set your threshold higher.

Latin AND italicised! I am impressed.

Is it really that theft in Europe so common? What about police?

Just want to make a comment about hotel room safes. I've read recently several accounts of thefts from room safes. They're not 100% safe. Use the main hotel safe instead.

All this discussion made me curious..so I checked the USA Overseas Security website and motor scooter crime is described therein! Also they advise against wearing your handbag across the body, rather keep it on one shoulder and holding on to it!


&quot;Most street crime is overt and centers on purse snatching and pick pocketing. Police estimate that there are over 1,000 ?velvet hand? gangs operating in and around Rome whose specialty is pick pocketing and petty thefts. The profile of the most common street criminal is thirty years old, a drug addict, and a purse-snatcher. Purses are either simply grabbed or straps are slashed by a person on foot or more commonly by a person on a motor scooter.&quot;

&quot;Individuals should be advised not to carry purses or handbags with the strap lengthwise over the body. They should carry the purse or handbag with the strap over the shoulder and the purse facing away from the street. With the strap over the shoulder, it can be released quickly, especially in case of a sudden purse snatching. Whereas, if the strap is lengthwise over the body, a sudden purse snatching may become violent if the criminal jerks or drags the victim. This safety precaution helps avoid any head or shoulder injuries that might result from a sudden fall.&quot;

So people do fall over...in your face Passepartout!!!

Mimar: I'd be interested in the information you have on hotel safes... I've read a few references as to them being safe or unsafe (nothing is 100 %) but if you have an article on it, I'm interested. Thanks!

Jody - thanks. That's good to know.

Ziana - although your post is deliberately provocative and without substance (and therefore hardly worth responding to), I do feel you could use some remedial practice in reading comprehension:

Author: Passepartout
Date: 10/10/2006, 12:34 pm

It doesn't require a PhD to understand what F=MA means. But Newton's Third Law trumps. Equal and opposite reaction, remember?

If an assailant's momentum causes a force of x pounds to be applied to the purse strap (and its owner), the same x is applied to the assailant. <b>This tends to pull the purse-wearer over</b> as well as the thief off his seat. The greater mass wins, but both are displaced.