Homelidays - I wished I had been warned!
 

1. I used Homelidays to find an apartment based upon the review I could find.
2. I did everything Homelidays recommended by contacting the owner, making a reservation, and taking out their "surprise-proof" insurance.
3. I sent a deposit to the owner.
4. I became suspicious about the owner because of the poor level of English used by a doctor (the owner) on a subsequent email asking for more money.
5. I contacted Homlidays to express my concerns and I received an email back stating that the owner and the apartment listed on their web site is a fraud.
6. After weeks and many emails and phone calls, I have not received any further responses to file an insurance claim. The fine print in the their "surprise-proof" insurance is that they don't pay when it is owner fraud. This is contrary to Homelidays saying they will pay if the apartment is in the wrong place or the size of the apartment is wrong ---they just say it's owner's fraud. In my case, the apartment was not even there.
7. They obviously list apartments without a simple legitimacy check (ie. the phone book).
8. With exchange rates and Western Union fees, I am out about $600US.
9. Though others have stated they have had success with Homelidays ( I wonder if they are employees of Homelidays) without problems sending cash, I will NEVER send cash again NOR ever use Homelidays.

That's always been my nightmare about apartments. Did this apartment have any reviews on the site? I'm sorry this happened.

That is a shame. I am a bit confused - you say you saw reviews of the apartment - but that the flat doesn't exist?

I have used homelidays a couple of times w/ excellent results (and no, I'm not an employee of their's) But any "deal w/ the owner sites" like Homelidays or VRBO, or any flat/cottage rental could pose the same problems.

Sorry, to clarify.

I saw a few other reviews by others on the forum. Including some reviews by others that stated that sending cash was the norm overseas. In hindsight, that was foolish to consider on my part. Travelers overseas need some sort of fraud protection like a credit card provides.

To answer the other part. Homelidays listed this specific apartment on their site. Homelidays assures users that their site is safe to use if renters take out their "surprise-proof" insurance. To underwrite that claim, one would 'assume' that Homelidays at least knows the the apartment even exists before accepting apartment owners' money and advertisement.

If not, what a way to scam money from tourists.

BTW, I've seen a few other apartments advertised on Homelidays in Paris that sounds a lot like the 'owner' I contacted.

I consider myself travel savvy. I've traveled to many places around the world. I'm embarrassed to say that this was the first time I was scammed traveling over 30 years.

I am so sorry that this happened to you. I am not familiar with Homelidays.

Perhaps you could post the the apartment information and we could could check it out and then if it is still on their site, after you notified them of the fraud, they could and should be held responible for your loss.

I for one would be willing to write to the apartment owner myself and attempt to rent his non existant apartment. If I can do it today or tommorow I would be happy to try to help you. We are leaving Thursday for Paris, so I don't have much time.


When did all of this transpire. Depending on where the company is located, they must have some legal recourse, business permits etc.. Also, who issued the 'surprise insurance' Homelidays or the 'apartment' owner? How did you send the $$, do you have a signature or any proof of delivery. Was it via cash or check?

mwiars - Sorry to hear about your bad experience. I have used Homelidays five or six times over the past 4 years, and have never had a problem - in fact I have previously recommended them on this forum.

I am quite shocked that the insurance does not seem to work in the case of fraud - this would have been the major reason that I have been tempted to take out such insurance.

IF the apartment is still listed on their site, it seems to me that they are definitely responsible since you notified them.

Did you ever post on this forum about Homelidays, looking for reviews or comments? Just curious because this is the first post under the name mwiars.

The fact is homelidays won't ask owners any proof about their rental. As an owner myself I registred last year for their free trial and it was very simple. I can imagine anybody registring a false rental.
And it is the same for a lot of similar websites like janis mentioned. Only one australien rental website asked me to send it a proof of the apartment existence.

If you don't feel confident check the tourist offices websites where you can find rated apartments (www.cotedor-tourisme.com for ex) or even gites de France website.

I'm really sorry for you.

I too am curious about many of the questions you have been asked -- particularly how you sent the deposits and where they were sent to. It seems that authorities would want to know if you can provide them with an address to which you sent money -- or a bank account to which you transferred cash.

And I'm also curious what you mean by the email from the owner asking for "more money". I've only seen them ask for a deposit and the balance on arrival. Did the policy for this one change during the course of the reservation period?

I think your next online research should be about how to bring a claim in French court or if there's a French small claims court. Heck, you could research whether or not making the website available in your homeland is enough for jurisdiction over the Homelidays company in your country.

Their disclaimer of liability of their liability for third party information is likely not as iron-clad as they would like to think, and it's absolute fraud to sell you an insurance policy that doesn't cover something (unless that clearly indicates what the exception was). Making a stink about suing might be enough to get them to reimburse your deposit. After all, the "equities" of the situation point in your favor - they're a business with business insurance and in a greater position to bear this loss. You are a consumer, relying on the representations of this company and its users.

From the site:

&quot;Note that Homelidays is not a real estate agency. Rentals are agreed upon directly between owners and renters, who must <b>according to the law,</b> sign a contract stating renting conditions (description, rent and service charges, insurance, duration...).&quot;

Did you sign a contract?

That is really a shame, and I don't blame you for your new rules. At least it wasn't more, even though I know $600 is a good sum, but many people on here send off thousands of dollars to people for vacation rentals that they don't know, so it could be worse.

I can understand the complaint about the insurance if it were not clear to you what it covered. If they told you in writing, then I think it is too bad, but I don't blame them. This is why I won't rent vacation apts from total strangers from websites that are just ads (like vrbo). I know many others have no problem with this, but I just won't do it for many reasons, although this isn't really the main one.

I think many people confuse these websites with agencies, and they are not. They are just a place for people to advertise, like the newspaper, only now it is cyberspace. I repeatedly see people on Fodors asking about VRBO and referring to them as an agency and asking for referrals on the general quality of VRBO, etc. They aren't an agency and don't do any checking, either, and they put those disclaimers on their website.

It is true that it is the norm to send cash to private apt owners, though, people weren't wrong in saying that. I agree with you that if you want to be cautious, you shouldn't. I don't but I won't deal with private owners at all, only agencies I know that have been around for years.

Looking in the phone book wouldn't prove anything, many people aren't listed or aren't listed. You could have done that also, after all. I don't mean to beat you up when you've had a bad experience, but I think you are blaming Home Holidays too much when it is just the system for when you choose to rent from a private owner on the internet and you didn't look into all those facts when you rented (like what the insurance covers, whether they checked out the ads, etc.).

YOu know, I just looked at their website and they clearly say they are not responsible for owner fraud. I think all websites do. On the other hand, the description of the insurance says it covers discrepancies between the description and reality, and it seems to me that not existing is a pretty big discrepancy.

&gt;&gt;6. After weeks and many emails and phone calls, I have not received any further responses to file an insurance claim. The fine print in the their &quot;surprise-proof&quot; insurance is that they don't pay when it is owner fraud. This is contrary to Homelidays saying they will pay if the apartment is in the wrong place or the size of the apartment is wrong ---they just say it's owner's fraud. In my case, the apartment was not even there.&lt;&lt;

This really doesn't sound like a consistent argument on their part - how can an apartment be &quot;in the wrong place&quot; without it being fraud? Surely no-one could accidentally and entirely innocently list a property they own as being in a different location to where it actually is. Ditto apartment size - using a tape measure is not rocket science.

Can you submit a claim saying the property doesn't exist &quot;at the address listed&quot; - and totally forget about claiming fraud? Would it then be up to the website to prove owner fraud (they would have to prove the apartment doesn't exist, or how else can they rule out the possibility that it exists but at a different address?)

What is VRBO???

kleroux, take a look: www.vrbo.com

There are others, such as French Connections and Holiday Rentals ...

Anselm

&lt;&lt;What is VRBO???&gt;&gt;

Vaction Rental By Owners

it's not just for Europe, pretty much everywhere.

That's why some of us choose to stay in hotels. It truly has less risks imo.

Speaking of VRBO. I just received their email newsletter, touting various apartments/home/locations.

I replied to the sender that I did not want to be on their mailing list and if in fact they harvested my address from their site, that I considered this newsletter to be spam. My email came back as undeliverable.

Typically there is an unsubscribe link on the bottom of the email Nina. Most newsletters are sent out with addresses that cannot be replied to.

This type situation is why I always rent flats through a place like London Guest Suites. Any time anything has gone wrong, they have made it right. It's an agency, not rentals through the owners. The studio I rented for next June has been sold &amp; I already had deposits in, planes booked, etc.

They are putting me in a 2 bedroom in the same building for the same price. Good luck with this situation. I don't think I'd just write off the $600.00.

Interesting about your email problem with VRBO, Nina. I've even rented through VRBO, but I've always checked the box for &quot;DO NOT send newsletter&quot; and they never have. In fact, I have never gotten an unsolicited email from VRBO. Whenever you register at sites, it's a good idea to look for those boxes to check, most companies really do follow them.

I just visited the 'homelidays' site and they detail this 'chart of trust' to which they 'oblige' member owners and renters to adhere.

Should the owner be shown to default on this 'chart of trust', Homelidays indicates it will remove the ad from the site. (Somehow I doubt a fraud artist would be overly upset by this finger-wagging, partly because $600 would cover a lot of ad fees, and partly since the con could simply invent a new name or company and start over.)

The rest of the so-called enforcement of said chart is up to their partner, Axa Courtage International Insurance Agent. Homelidays makes much of this, stating that &quot;the renter is not left to deal with the law alone, as opposed to what usually happens in private holiday rentals.&quot;

This sounds all very reassuring, and unfortunately mwiars, you took it to mean a general guarantee that the &quot;site was safe to use.&quot; Unfortunately, one would be quickly disabused of said notion, if one takes a look at the Insurance Contract, in particular Section IV - \<b> Exclusions: </b> (capitals are the site's, sorry) &quot;OWNER'S FRAUD - RENTING OF A PROPERTY UNDER A FALSE NAME OR STATUS, OR EMPLOYING FRAUDULOUS MANOUVERS IN THE GENERAL AIM OF MAKING THE RENTER PAY FOR A NON-EXISTANT PROPERTY OR A PROPERTY BELONGING TO SOMEONE ELSE;&quot;

Translation: The &quot;Insurance&quot; policy is worth almost but not quite as much as the paper on which one conceivably prints it, in the situation in which one is most likely going to need to involve the law - fraud.

I think you need a lawyer's advice, there may yet be some recourse. Meanwhile, thanks for the heads up, you are sure to have helped someone.

mwiars,

I'm so sorry for your troubles. Homelidays was on my shortlist for my trip I'm planning to Paris in May. Obviously that is no longer the case.

Good luck on this and please know that you helped people by posting this.

Tamara

I have rented many houses and apartments in Europe directly from owners and have never had a problem. (I have never used Homelidays, but I've had some wonderful experiences with properties I've found through VRBO.) Actually the only bad experience we've had in more than 20 rentals was with one of the few properties we rented through an agency!

Several posters here seem to be recommending against ever renting directly from owners. I think it's important to do some due diligence on any rental before you send money off: an exchange of e-mails, perhaps a phone call, reading reviews, e-mailing or talking to past tenants.

Kathy

I have rented direct from owners three times so far, and look foward to many more - actually I've booked an apartment in Madrid for next Easter that I found through Homelidays. (I didn't take out the insurance though, and don't regret it) I think if I had read this before I booked my first rental I might have been a bit anxious - I hope people are not put off renting this way - I'm sure in the vast majority of cases things work out fine - especially if you take time to make sure you feel comfortable with the owner's correspondence before parting with a deposit. Very sorry to hear of your experience, though, mwiars

I too have had better luck renting directly from owners than I have from agencies. I have found that an agency often is not available for a problem, but an owner is either near by or has someone in the building to take care of &quot;problems&quot;. In fact, I've never had a problem renting from an owner (but yes, I check them out pretty thoroughly and do a fair amount of correspondance before sending a check). I have had disappointments in apartments I've rented through agencies. And almost always it seems I have gotten better &quot;value&quot; dealing direct with an owner.

I am sure that mwiars experience has made a number of us rethink our plans to rent through certain companies. The whole relationship between rentor and rentee is a little frightening when the customer trusts the owner to be truthful, return a huge security deposit, etc.
The other lesson is the amount we have learned to trust other regulars on this forum. On an earlier thread which I started entitled:
The Frustration of Booking a Paris Apartment - Is It Worth It? I received the following answer from a poster whom I trust
&lt;&lt;I like homelidays.com LOTS of great flats in all price ranges and is similar to VRBO in that you deal directly w/ the owners - but have the added insurance of an agency to back you up.

As for VRBO or any site where you are dealing w/ owners/one offs - sure, their situation can change. One may have a holiday flat and decide to convert it to long term letting. Or the flat may be sold. or just about anything. And I find in general some don't answer e-mails as quickly as you are used to in the states.&gt;&gt;
In all innocence she was reporting from her experience. But I, too, often make decisions on recommendations like this.

I used Homelidays for the trip in October. No problems. I will use them again someday. In my case, the flat was in the house of the owner. It was terrific and we made friends with them.

I also used homelidays this summer for Croatia and found it great.

I'm sorry for your bad story. It emphasizes the fact that Western Union payments are the least safe that exist ...

Sorry to hear about your problem, M.

Thanks for the heads up.

((I))

Meanwhile, I'm curious, mwiars. Is this listing still on the Homelidays website?

Something else just occurred to me mwiars - have you contacted the French police? It must be illegal for the &quot;apartment owner&quot; to obtain money from you in this manner.

Sorry to learn about your bad experience, mwiars. Homelidays is partly responsible for it, no doubt - not because they are bound to reveal every kind of potential fraud happening on their site, but because their insurance ad is fairly misleading, and that's a shame. As a previous poster has already pointed out, such an insurance isn't worth the paper on which to print it, so why advertise it? Just to mislead customers, IMO, which is almost fraudulent in itself.

On the other hand, I don't agree with the conclusions mwiars (maybe understandably, in his/her justified fury) and others have drawn. I'm deeply convinced that hotels are by no means a safer solution than apartments, nor are agencies anything safer than renting from owners: there are crooks in each and every kind of business, and you can be cheated this and that way - as well as avoid it, with these and with those kinds of rentals. As far as I am concerned, I NEVER rent by simply filling in an online form. I want to REALLY communicate with those on the other end, agency, owner or hotel, never mind - I want to see how they react to my questions, what questions they have (if an apartment owner is serious, it may well be that s/he has questions, too - if s/he is honest, then s/he is taking an even greater risk renting to strangers than I do, as their renter: just imagine how much damage I could cause to their property - much more than 600 dollars!). And I think this kind of email (or phone) communication is so valuable not just because I want to protect myself from fraud - even more so because I want to check if the people on the other end are nice or not, how they value their own property (the more meticulous they are with regard to their guests, the better kept will their rental be), in short: whether I like them or not (and I absolutely want to like people who are going to be responsible for the success of an important part of my holiday). I assure you, after that kind of communication I have with any landlords (hotels or private owners), it's impossible that I could ever be cheated - no crook in the whole world has the histrionic qualities to disguise himself as a serious owner through the entire communication process to which I'm subjecting him AHEAD!

And as far as Western Union, it is a myth that these payments are &quot;the least safe&quot;. Their fees are pure robbery; their customer service must be the worst in the Western world; but unsafe? By no means unsafer than any bank wire: you have the receiver's name (no other person can get the money), and Western Union has a copy of his/her passport (otherwise, they wouldn't pay the money). Faking an ad on Homelidays is one thing, but counterfeiting a passport is a VERY different thing... meaning that the person who has your 600 dollars, mwiars, is easily traceable - exactly as easily traceable as any owner of any bank account to which you're wiring money. And more than that: from most countries, you can make Western Union payments online by credit card, so in this case, you even have your normal credit card safety... It's not that I'm a supporter of Western Union, I really want to make that clear (rather on the contrary, due to their customer service). But having once worked in the consumerism re: financial services, I just have to protest that myth of &quot;unsafe&quot; payment methods...

I hope mwiars posts a review at SlowTalk.com .

Franco, I suppose a hotel employee could treat people in a criminal manner (robbery, assault, or worse), but it does seem you are more protected at a hotel against large financial loss than you are if you attempt to rent an apartment in another country from someone you don't know. I've read several accounts of people who have not had large security deposits returned - that seems to be more common than apartments not existing. (Of course, my experience with rentals is that the tenants often do deserve to lose their deposits and much more, but that seems less likely for 1-week rentals.)

It's very true that there are crooks in every type of rental situation but the agency I've used is in the US, has a rep in London who is always on call &amp; there's a housekeeper in the building which is why I so often recommend it. I can also pay with a CC which adds another layer of security.

I doubt very much if I would rent anything unless I could do it with a credit card &amp; I definitely wouldn't pay any deposits, etc. any other way.

WillTravel - sorry to insist, but the problem with in fact non-existent rentals is almost the same with hotels. I'm sure you, too, will have heard countless stories about hotels booked that turned out to be merely shells of buildings on arrival, still far from being finished, and the tourists in the end being accomodated in some rat-hole nearby... that's not exactly the same as in the case the OP described here, but IMO, it's nothing better.

Carrybean, of course, if an agency already has a reputation, and if you already know it, there's no need to worry - but the same is of course true of individual apartment owners! There are many of them who already have a reputation, too, you can read reviews of their former guests here or on other forums, and so on... And let's not forget that though there are crooks in every business, the vast majority of people (again, in every business) is still honest. As far as credit card payments, I understand that many travelers prefer them for their payments - but on the other hand, I do understand agencies, owners and so on who don't accept them. It's a tough question: cause there are obviously crooks among the travelers, too - and the safety that a credit card provides for you and me, as the travelers, means risk for those whom we are paying! There is actually the &quot;equivalent crook&quot; to mwiars false owner, on the customer's side: the traveler who pays a rental by credit card, makes use of it, enjoys the holiday - and goes back home, files a protest with the credit card company, says the hotel, or the apartment owner, or whoever, has taken his money fraudulently since he never made use of the rental - and gets the money back!!, that's the safety the credit card company provides. But of course, the credit card company will now hold the &quot;fraudulent&quot; landlord responsible; while the true fraud is their own customer... and in this case, it's up to the hotel (or apartment) to prove that this nice guest has actually spent his or her holiday there; which isn't always easy, as you can guess. So I repeat, I understand hotels or owners who DO NOT accept credit cards (even if I'm more than happy myself if they do). Again, I think the one and only way to judge if a person, or a company, seems honest or not is thorough and skillful communication. And after all - a certain amount of risk is part of life. Or haven't all of us heard of credit card fraud, too? Especially via internet, credit cards are certainly NOT the safest payment option...

I don't believe I've ever heard of such a hotel story - certainly not nowadays when you can look up hotels on TripAdvisor.