century21-

Your screenname has me wondering if you live in lower Manhattan since it's the name of the store right across the street from "Ground Zero". If so, that would mean you are deeply affected by 9/11 in a way that may never be well understood by someone who wasn't there at the time.

Comments like Allypally's, while somewhat insensitive and unaware, are best taken in stride.

Stay well, both of you. These are certainly times we live in, and all of us need each other.

Handmaiden : re your car keys - leave them in left luggage at your home airport. (But 'most people these days have electronic key fobs' ? I beg to differ - I've only ever seen one, for DH's previous car.)

"I just shudder to think what happens when terrorists start targeting the cruise line industry!" They are way ahead of you - haven't you heard of the Achille Lauro (hijacked 1985) ?

Obxgirl,what you mean saying "21 people were arrested" instead "21 terrorists they caught"? That you do not believe that they are guilty?

Adrian45, unlike the US where even the President can pre-judge a trial, the UK doesn't allow you to do that & it is a serious offence to do so.

Thus the likes of the BBC will always talk about alleged offences even if the people were caught with their fingers in the cookie jar.

Don't you remember the Miami plot to blow up Chicago buildings. Quite a few US politicos & commentators made total assholes of themselves with that "major anti-terrorism coup"

They're now reporting that although you still have to check in your own stuff, you can now buy things like books in duty free beyond the security check and take them on board, except for flights to the US, which are still subject to the full restrictions.

Adrian45

Innocent until proven innocent is a central right to many countries. If we don't abide by it, I believe we cannot claim any moral superiority to totalitarian and repressive regimes.

THat is why so many have a major issue with the Guantanmo Bay detainees being held indefinitely without trial and not being treated according to the Geneva Convention.

A fundamental right

This right is so important in modern democracies that many have explicitly included it in their legal codes and constitutions:

* In Canada, section 11(d) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states: "Any person charged with an offence has the right ... to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal".

* In France, article 9 of the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, of constitutional value, says "Every man is supposed innocent until having been declared guilty." and the preliminary article of the code of criminal procedure says "any suspected or prosecuted person is presumed to be innocent until his guilt has been established". The jurors' oath reiterates this assertion.

* Although the Constitution of the United States does not cite it explicitly, presumption of innocence is widely held to follow from the 5th, 6th and 14th amendments. See also Coffin v. United States

* The Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 11, states: Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

* The Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms of the Council of Europe says (art. 6.2): "Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law". This convention has been adopted by treaty and is binding on all Council of Europe members. Currently (and in any foreseeable expansion of the EU) every country member of the European Union is also member to the Council of Europe, so this stands for EU members as a matter of course.

Source: Wikipedia

Calling alleged criminals "criminals" in public is far worse than a criminal offence. It can make it impossible to bring charges successfully against them: any British defence lawyer worth his or her salt can get the charges thrown out.

So people unused to the concept of a fair trial who go round claiming "terrorists have been caught" are doing PRECISELY what the psychopaths want them to.

Adrian, in this country we still have the concept that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

Nonconformist, where did you see/hear that. Be still my beating heart. The only thing worse than being separated from my books, is being blown out of the skies.

Merseyheart, I will have quite a few points of reference in the next 10 days. My husband is currently over the Atlantic on his way to Scotland to meet us. My older daughter is returning from the UK to the US on Sunday morning. Most of the large group we are with are departing on Monday or Tuesday. We will return from the US from London a week later.

It was on Channel 4's 12 o'clock news, Sheila - they interviewed an actual passenger and said they'd confirmed it with BAA.

The Heathrow site is now saying you can take things you've bought at the airside shops onto a plane, except for liquids if you're going to the US.

So the crap books they sell at airports: fine. Dickens or Shakespeare remain no-nos

Who is this Don Stewart-Whyte who is involved? His name doesn't sound Pakastani to me, sounds as British as tea and scones.

I don't know why we don't profile at our airports like the Israelis do. You have never seen an El Al plane blow up. Thank the Lord the Israelis are not as stupid and POLITICALLY CORRECT as we are. We need to go into survival mode; it is either them or us.

Christine

He's a convert, a couple of the arrestees are.

Christine (Handmaiden)

Looking at the UK census results for 2001, the ethnicity of over 2 million residents (or >4% of the UK population) is Indian, Pakistani, Bangledeshi or other Asian. 2.7% or 1.6m are muslim. How do you think the UK should be profiling them? Should all UK muslims be prevented from flying?

AllyPally, let me put it this way and tell me what you think. What if I said "If the UK intelligence were better, maybe all those people wouldn't have been blown up in the tube." Or "Maybe if the UK's policy toward Northern Ireland were different, all those people in London wouldn't have been killed by bombs." See what I mean?

Bellastarr--I actually work a few blocks north of WTC. For some reason Century21 came to mind when I was registering, I'm not sure why!

First of all, Sarvo, in the U.S., Asian means Chinese, Japanese, Korean, etc. We don't refer to Pakis or Indians as Asian.

Second, yes, I do think we should profile all of these people. Listen, Buddhist, Christians, Jews, Hindus aren't blowing up planes. It is Muslims who are doing it. Why are we making white gradmas from Little Rock take off their shoes at the airport?


Third, I would rather be ALIVE than politically correct.

Christine

Yes, Handmaiden - yours is a typical fascist view.

fingerprint us all; tag us all - watch us all.

As for those who were lazy enough to repond to my earlier post with comments about my handle - I suggest, they find out what "fuzzy logic" is - clearly a term they are too stupid to recognise.

Most of this thread has just reinforced conclusions derived from thinking and reading.

And they are:

Most Americans don't know much about history.

Most americans think it's fine to kill thousands of innocent civilians in reply for 3,000 deaths.

And they won't stop - because of course the USA is always right - and their leader is an intellectual that can be trusted.

Of course we all know he's an idiot. And that it's all about power and control and oil - check out Haliburton.

And then we get posts about whether it is safe for Americans to travel abroad.

Don't you ever wonder why you are so hated?

Handmaiden

I was not taking a subjective view on Asians - that is the official UK census terminology - see http://tinyurl.com/4635u

Again - I don't understand how you can racially profile over 1.6 million people who are residents/citizens of a democratic society many of whom are born in that country Do you want them all locked up?

Should all rednecks in the US be profiles as they could be potentially nti-government extremists? a la Timothy McVeigh?

What society will eventuate out of that loss of liberties?

century21 wrote
<<"If the UK intelligence were better, maybe all those people wouldn't have been blown up in the tube." Or "Maybe if the UK's policy toward Northern Ireland were different, all those people in London wouldn't have been killed by bombs." See what I mean? >>

No, I don't think your above statements are crude or disgusting, the same as AllyPally's were not. I think you make valid points, but unfortunately terrorists only have to get lucky once. What the British intelligence did do in Ireland was infiltrate them and slowly wear the IRA down. The IRA had enough and were prepared to talk peace and go the political route rather than the violent way.

Geordie