Phantom1

We already have the Swiss Pass in hand for late December train travel within Switzerland. What is the best/quickest train route from Grindelwald to Venice (assuming we must connect through Milan)? When and where should we purchase the Italy portion of this train travel (assuming the Swiss Pass only gets me to the border station I hit along the way)? Should I purchase the Italy portion of this train trip in advance? Thanks.

PalenQ

Purchase Italian part in advance to save money but then that train from Domodossola, Italian border station where the validity of your Swiss Pass ends - discounted tickets will nbe non-changeable non-rerfundable so leave enough time for the Swiss train to be late.

Better yet try to get one of the through Spiexz to Milan Central trains and then just show your Italian ticket when Italian conductors come aboard at Domodossola.

With the Swiss Pass just hop on any train Grindelwald to Interlaken-Ost and then any of the frequent trains to Spiez, on the main line to Milan - this takes you thru the new Lotschberg Base Tunnel so it is now all in tunnel most of the way to Brig/Visp and then thru the Simplon Tunnel to Iselle where you emerge just before Domodossola.

Swiss trains do not demand seat reservations but Italian portions of the same train do so just reserve a seat in Grindelwald (or Interlaken-Ost before even going to Grindelwald for the whole Spiez to Milan train if you get on a direct one.

More and more one has to change trains at the border - at Brig/visp - buy an Italian ticket anyway for Domodossola to Venice via Milan - there are different types of train on that route - cheaper and slower vs express trains and higher fares.

But keep in mind you need a seat reservation on all but regional trains in Italy and regional trains can be painstakingly slow as they stop at every little station.

Not sure you can buy the Italian ticket in Switzerland - I assume you can buy a full fare ticket but not sure so go to www.trenitalia.com - Italian Railways site and book one yourself - get a discount if you can and are sure of your time, etc.

For lots of great info on European trains I always spotlight these fine IMO sites - www.seat61.com - good info on discounted tickets; www.ricksteves.com and www.budgeteuropetravel.com.

If full fare tickets are sold in Siwtzerland and I do not know then you could IME always get on trains if you buy a few days in advance.

PalenQ

Seems like you'd want to be leaving Interlaken-Ost on the 8 am train to
Spiez, then by changing at both Brig and Milan you'd be in Venice's Santa Lucia station (dead-end one on a main canal in the heart of town) at 14:00 - other connections until early afternoon take much longer it seems.

Grindelwald is just 20 mins or so from Interlaken-Ost.

Phantom1

Thanks PalenQ, very helpful. While I can't see the schedules online yet for 12/29, I agree that it looks like 715am or so out of Grindelwald, 8am out of Interlaken to Spiez, and then I hope to book an "int'l" train from Spiez to Milan. I've heard that I need to cushion at least 45 min. at Milan station--agree? With so many train changes, I am reluctant to pre-purchase the Italian portion of this route, but if the price is right, I may just take my chances.

PalenQ

Before 12/29 and before winter schedules kick in the only two direct Spiez to Milan trains leave Sp[iez at 8:34 or 8:36 around then and not the next one until 14:05 - so I'd definitely book the seat on the 8:36 train to Milan and having a Trenitalia ticket in hand it should be fool proof as you can take any trains to Spiez - no problem.

I'm taking schedules from www.bahn.de - if you put in 12/29 it will give you a ridiculous roundabout routing via Zurich simply because Italian schedules are not loaded yet for Brig to Milan - schedules rarely change however.

neckervd

Take the direct Eurocity train 37: Brig dp 9.44 - Venice ar 14.40 (no train change at Milan), runs until 13th December 2014.
Corresponding trains from Grindelwald:
G'wald dp 7.19 - Il'Ost dp 8.00 - Spiez dp 8.36 (until 13th Dec 2014)
In the web, Trenitalia offers actually only the base fare of 52.50 EUR (for Domodossola - Venezia SL).
Alternatives: Spiez (dp 8.05 and 14.05, no change at Brig, but change at Milan). For the latter, the super economy fare of 18 EUR is theoretically available, but it may be difficult to get the ticket.

PalenQ

Take the direct Eurocity train 37: Brig dp 9.44 - Venice ar 14.40 (no train change at Milan), runs until 13th December 2014.>

so if you can get to Brig from Gridelwald by 9:44 then you can catch a direct train to Venice, according to neckervd - that train must be coming from Geneva, not from Spiez.

neckervd

"if you can get to Brig from Gridelwald by 9:44"

Yes, we can!

See above:
G'wald dp 7.19 - Il'Ost dp 8.00 - Spiez dp 8.36 - Brig ar 9.11 (until 13th Dec 2014)

PalenQ

Yes EC 37 starts in Geneva and goes direct to Venice - one of the few if not the only such train between Venice and Switzerland with a change of trains in Milan - something I would strongly try to avoid in that hectic station.

Leaves from platform 4 in Brig, according to bahn.de.

Yes at all costs get that train! And see if trenitalia.com and buy that 52-euro ticket before going to Switzerland unless you know you can buy it in Switzerland.

PalenQ

I've heard that I need to cushion at least 45 min. at Milan station--agree?>

At least and that is one reason I would avoid having to change there at all costs - one of Europe's busiest train stations - can seem chaotic to a novice train traveler - thank God for the EC train 37 neckervd ferreted out.

neckervd

I often change at Milano Centrale, it's possible in less than 10 min if the trains arrive in time, but I usually count 20 min.
Milano Centrale is much bigger than Zurich, but has much less than half the traffic of Zurich.
There is only trouble during holidays, some weekends, Italian elections and similar events (or if the electronic panel indicating the train departures and track numbers is falling out once more).

Phantom1

I had flagged the 944am out of Brig but thought I would have to change trains in Milan to get to Venice by 240pm. This is great if I don't have to change in Milan. So it looks like I need 649am out of Grindelvald (719 probably cuts it too close as the web says its 35 min. to Interlaken Ost--get the 8am to Spiez (21 min.)--15 min. to get 836am to Brig--35 min. train leaves me 33 min. in station to get 944am out of Brig...then I am home free all the way to Venice.

neckervd

Either you leave Grindelwald at 6.49, change at Intelaken Ost, Spiez and MILAN and arrive at Venice at 14.10
or
you leave Grindelwald at 7.19, change at Intelaken Ost, Spiez and BRIG and arrive at Venice at 14.40.
If you prefer to leave Grindelwald at 6.49 and to arrive at Venice at 14.40, you can choose between the following layovers:
36 min at Interlaken Ost
or
46 min at Spiez
or
64 min at Brig.

Phantom1

Not to beat a dead horse, but if I do the 719am out of Grindelwald, is 6 minutes enough time at Interlaken Ost to get the 8am to Spiez? If I miss the 8am, the rest of the plan to get to Venice early is shot.

PalenQ

I would think it a pretty good bet that if the train from Grindelwald was a little late they would hold up the connecting train to Sp[iez - Interlaken-Ost is a small station - you usually transfer from one platform to an adjoining one. If you missed the train you get in the first taxi and tell them to barrel it to Spiez, where you have 46 minutes of waiting time if you went by train.

neckervd

" is 6 minutes enough time at Interlaken Ost to get the 8am to Spiez?"

In more than 99 per cent of the cases YES. The Interlaken dp 8.00 train waites a few minutes in the case the train from Grindelwald should be late.
But I cannot guarantee that there will be no delay caused to a earth slide, a serious damage of the train engine, a suicidal person or a car on the track when the train arrives or similar things which happen of course not every year.

But you must not decide now. The only train you must book ist the Brig - Venice train.

michele_d

If I had the choice between getting to Interlaken 30 minutes early or 5 minutes I would take the 30 minutes. It's not a fun way to start the day wondering if you will make your first connection of what will be a long day. Get up a little bit early. You can kick back and relax on the trains.

We did this trip last year in reverse, Venice to Lauterbrunnen. It is a long day but not difficult at all.

PalenQ

Too bad in some ways the new Lotschberg Base Tunnel is opened as it now cuts off nearly all the bucolic Alpine scenery the old route - which goes up and then thru a much smaller Lotschberg Tunnel - the neat Kandersteg Valley and a long roll along a narrow ledge when descending for several miles down into Brig - but the new route slices an hour off the Spiez to Brig route I believe so much quicker. Soon when all the projected Swiss tunnels are built one could practically take a train under Switzerland and rarely glimpse the Alps - just for a few miles on this route after Spiez - a few miles in the Rhone Valley around Visp/Brig before going thru the Simplon Tunnel to Italy - after that you get some Alpine seens but the valley the train rolls down from Domodossola is scarred by lots of mining activities, etc. Milan to Venice is non-eventful.

PalenQ

But refering to my above post - folks having time could take the old route by at Spiez changing to a regional train that takes the old route - to me a dramatically scenic route - but if going to Venice I would not spend the extra hour or more as the day is really long to begin with. But folks just bopping around the Spiez-Brig area may want to take the old route because IMO it is one of the top scneic thrilling rides in Switzerland by train!.

neckervd

The travel via the scenic old Loetschberg line would take 30 min longer, indeed:
Grindelwald dp 6.49 - Ilaken Ost 7.24/7.29 - Spiez 7.50/8.12 - Brig 9.24/9.44 - Venezia SL 14.40.

As Phantom wants to leave Gwald at 6.49 anyway, he could consider this solution. In the (most improbable) case he would miss the train at Ilaken Ost, he could still continue 30 min later via Base tunnel.