As much as we (the wife and I) love the major draws of Europe: Lisbon, Munich, Paris, London, Rome, Barcelona, Amsterdam, Prague, etc. I think this year is to try to enjoy some of the lesser tourist visited areas in the respective countries. After so many folks had 2,3,4 trips cancelled due to Covid they estimate crowds to be overwhelming this summer in Europe. Good for the countries and the businesses to recoup after 2 years of heavy losses, not so good for the tourist. We have been fortunate to have visited all the major "must see" European cities and major attractions in years past and now we love to try to visit some still incredible cities-towns-villlages of Europe but a little "off the tourist scene". Next week we will visit Portugal and yes visit some tourist areas but going for lesser crowds in Estoril, Tomar, Amarante and Vila do Conde. September brings 3 weeks in Spain enjoying Sanlucar de Barremada, Medina-Sidonia, and Zahara de los Atunes (Andalusia). Only drawback in the venture to visit some of the less visited gems is public transport is limited and a rental vehicle is needed.

Sue54 - Bom Jardin is an excellent, though no-frills restaurant where you will get the most amazing piri-piri chicken. If I were to return to Lisbon, this would be the first restaurant on my list! I also ate at and enjoyed restaurants by the chef Jose Avillez.

Mike, there is a fantastic photo op view of Zahara located on the #8102 heading out of town's NW corner, at the intersection where that same route meets the road coming down from Bocaleones. There is, or at least once was, an old ruined farmstead there that shutterbugs may step onto for the best view.
Good luck.
I am done. the end

My impression pre-COVID was that the crowds had as much to do with cheap flights such as Ryanair, easyJet, Wizz Air, etc. Are there any data on how many of the tourists in, for example, Sintra are cruise passengers and how many arrive by air or land? IMO cruise passengers are easy targets when on a ship's tour. (In 2019 I was in Portugal via Ryanair.). Maybe 150 of what seemed like thousands in line at Jeronimo were on cruise tours.

I don't know or have seen data about the number of Sintra visitors that arrive on a cruise ship day excursion.

It seems to be a combo of the many cheap flights from Europe to Lisbon (and Porto), a huge pent up demand for travel, the fact that Portugal is on many travel site's "best destinations for 2022" lists and cruise traffic. I do know that the cruise traffic has increased tremendously in Lisbon and to handle more mega ships, they've built a new terminal.
The cruise port schedule is here-
https://www.cruisemapper.com/ports/lisbon-port-65.

I do know that when exiting Jerónimos Monastery on March 15 at 11 am, the many, many cruise ship excursion buses plus other excursion buses (along with the HOHOs) had just arrived, and we watched the passengers head to the Monastery, the Monument to the Discoveries and the Belém Tower. My advice to anyone contemplating a Belém day these days is to get a very early start and purchase Monastery tickets online at the official site.
https://bilheteira.patrimoniocultural.pt/pos/space/list.

It opens at 10 am but is closed on Mondays.

Interesting question mlgb. A comparison pre-COVID vs this year would be interesting. Comparing this years numbers to the last two years is unhelpful, as naturally numbers were down during COVID. It's my impression that the flood gates have opened and this summer is going to be a doozy. Not just in Portugal, but elsewhere in Europe. Similar to the onslaught of tourists visiting US National Parks during COVID, as few wanted to get on an international flight.

The place did seem to be crawling with Brits, and there seemed to be a lot of people there to party - lots of people walking with beers through the streets, celebrating their release from two years of lockdowns, that sort of thing. I think Portugal has always been a hot spot for Brits taking cheap flights, and for Spaniards due to proximity. And I suspect that because Portugal is so inexpensive and has such a high rate of COVID vaccination and admirable COVID polices, that many feel very comfortable visiting.

I'm getting skewered on other threads for sharing my impressions of Lisbon and Sintra. It seems a negative impression isn't welcome amongst the Portugal lovers.

I'm in the process of writing a very detailed trip report, but am hesitant to post it. Seems I'm being blamed for my choice of time to travel, my choice of area to stay (which ironically was based on recommendations received here on Fodor's) my method of travel (public transport) and my initial reactions to the place.

I have no doubt there are some wonderful bits of Portugal and I fully appreciate that we don't all love the same things, and that we all have different tolerance levels for crowds, that we saw a very small part of the country, etc, but one has to start somewhere.

Mel I wouldn't pay much attention to those skewers. All that matters is that you two were able to have an experience of travel, and enjoyed parts of it.
And I know that you've already read the following line from our own recent Jordan TR, but for those who may not, and are curious about cruise numbers and covid elsewhere:
"The Jordanian tourism industry experienced a bizarre juxtaposition, when pre-covid numbers from cruise ships resulted in a new need for crowd management at Petra. The subsequent covid collapse meant that tourist dollars became a trickle."

My understanding is that all visitors to Petra are welcome, except for one particular couple from NYC.
I am done. the wanted posters

Melnq8 - Thanks so much for sharing your honest impressions and great photos. And please do post your full trip report. I'm still dithering about including some days in Lisbon this October on our way to a longer stay in France. Reading your reports and those of others is so helpful when it comes to assessing the probable pros and cons of a destination.

Mel- I think some of your comments sounded odd. Some people who had answered your questions earlier are Portuguese. Then you compared parts of the country to the Middle East in how they smelled and the chaos. And that you were able to get a free Covid test in Lisbon, with results in 30 minutes I believe, but felt the need to post a picture of the test center covered with some graffiti.

These comments just didn't seem super respectful, while you were still in the country.

Unfortunately, Portugal isn't Germany/Switzerland with trains that go everywhere, so you were limited to some of the larger population centers.

As I previously wrote, I believe your report was very helpful to many, and will continue to be so. It's just that when written in real time, emotions are closer to the surface, and your frustrations were evident. I understand that. But still try to be respectful to the host nation.

I hope you are able to return at some point and visit the lesser traveled regions.

Well, I am a Portugal lover. I love my country for many things, but above all them, because we are a cohesive country. We are the oldest borders in Europe (I know, some people might say a thing or two about Olivença, please don't). Comparing, Italy is quite recent. We have only one language - compare, for instance, with Norway, or even more strange, Switzerland! Or Belgium!

And yet, Mel, I welcome your negative impression, that has nothing to do (well... maybe a litle) with the country itself. You are not denying anything that is portuguese: you just don't like somethings, someplaces, and some food. Neither do I! And you don't like crowds... well, neither do I, but... when a place becames touristy, that's the price to pay!

I believe it is extremely positive that someone can put the finger on the the things that are less good. Let's be realistic!

Thank you Melqn, for the photos and for your impressions!

Helena

I appreciate hearing the negative as well as the positive, when the reason why is given. "I hated this city" isn't helpful but "This city was too crowded for me" or "The weather was too hot in this city" or "I felt that X was a tourist trap" can be quite helpful. If one has a car in a city and can't find a place to park, that is useful info for the rest of us; no need to criticize the person for having a car there, just learn from their experience.

Helena- I'm very glad you posted that, as it was you I was thinking of. I noticed you had quite replying, and thought you may have been a bit miffed, glad that wasn't the case.

I am so appreciative when locals reply to questions about their country, and would hate to lose those local opinions. Which is why I tried to word my reply carefully, as I'm pretty sure Mel helped me with Amtrak questions while planning our trip to Colorado last Fall.

We're leaving Evora tomorrow am, and will be dropping the car in Lisbon to start the last 3 days of our trip. And I will be more aware of the increase in people, thanks to Mel. And will be better suited to avoid some of those crowds thanks to other posters. So this thread and Fodors have helped me, as I'm sure they will others.

Abrigado, y'all.

Hallo Mel,

I am so sorry you have been under fire for posting the truths of your visit. I had similar experiences when I visited Lisbon in 2018. Portugal was never an interest for me (even though my Mama was of Portuguese heritage), but when my cousins went there, I flew over for a few days to visit. To me, Lisbon was crowded, chaotic, and unappealing; I know that many others would say it is vibrant and alive and fascinating. We're all different. I do hope you post your trip report, and do show what you experienced.... others like you and me will appreciate knowing what to expect. I liked and learned from all your photos, showing the truth, which is sometimes ugly. Covering the truth is what is disrespectful imo.

As an added note... as you may remember, I sometimes get yelled at for posting my bad impressions of some beloved spots like Lauterbrunnen, Interlaken, etc. Please don't stop!

s

mel,
I’m very appreciative of all your posts and have loved seeing your photos. It helps a great deal to have your impressions (though admittedly, it’s made me a bit nervous!) and has given me a realistic idea of what to expect when we arrive next week.

I never thought your comments were odd or off base. I think you gave very clear reasons why you had negative impressions, and I’m also glad Helena posted what she did, acknowledged that she, too, appreciated your post.

I’ve been following trip reports elsewhere and I’m aware that there will be crowds in many places so am prepared to work around these as best as possible. Thanks again for your ongoing trip report and I look forward to reading the more detailed one when you’re finished (and I’m in awe that you’re willing to do that! I
thought the “live” one was pretty darn good!).

Mel - please do post a full report! I love reading about Portugal, and your report to date has been great. I don't have a problem with people reporting the bad (or so-so) as well as the good. I do it myself.... I don't remember getting flak about it here, but I did once get an email from a stranger about a less than enthusiastic post on Porto on my public website.

I appreciate the encouraging comments, I really do.

And especially yours Helena, as I absolutely never intended to be disrespectful. Likewise, the photos I posted were never meant to disparage, just to share what I saw. I loved the street art, and took many photos of it, the graffiti, not-so-much, but I thought the COVID testing site photo was amusing more than anything; as well as the Elevador da Gloria, which was a pristine yellow one day and covered in graffiti the next.

By the way Helena, Porto was our favorite place, and the hospitality and friendliness of the Portuguese people was second to none.

Potential title: 'Any Porto in a Storm'.
I am done. the full-report

Zebec wrote:

"Potential title: 'Any Porto in a Storm'."

True. But not this Porto.

Porto airport is not in Porto but in Maia.

Porto producers of Port Wine are not in Porto but in Gaia (Vila Nova de Gaia).

Porto terminal cruise is not in Porto, it is in Matosinhos.

And in a storm (an heavy one) a boat called "Vapor", catched in a storm near Figueira da Foz, tryed to escape returning to Porto port (in those days it was not in Matosinhos, it was in the Douro river), and everyone died.

Coming late to this thread, but hope my thoughts may be of interest to others.



First, Mel, very artful photos as always, which I enjoy seeing. Sorry this trip didn't live up to your expectations, but if we had encountered the same crowds, I'm afraid that my opinion of Portugal would have been different. Totally understand why you are looking for "a quiet weekend trip" as posted on the US Forum.



Laurie (is she still around?) was an excellent help in suggesting places to stay for our trip. We always try to stay outside of cities and loved the small, homey quintas and guesthouses we found. These are different from the larger, more expensive posados. I know others may not like this, but staying in places with thick stone walls dating back several centuries was wonderful as well as very quiet. Many are still located in vineyards or farms, but certainly have charm. I would really recommend looking into them, both for the price and peaceful locations. They also gave us the chance to interact with locals rather than only tourists.



As mentioned in the following Trip Report, we arrived in Lisbon late afternoon and left early morning for our return flight, which was enough for us. Sure we probably missed seeing some interesting places, but we are usually much more impressed with exploring smaller towns and soaking in that flavor.



Yes, the Trip Report is from 2010, but I rechecked the places we stayed and especially "Alice's Restaurant,**" and all are still there. As I said, many have been operating for centuries in one way or the other. **https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaura..._Portugal.html



Since I received several compliments on this report, I hope it may be of interest to anyone looking for a quieter experience without the glitz and the crowds.https://www.fodors.com/community/eur...rtugal-837906/

Sorry, my trip report didn't list for some reason.https://www.fodors.com/community/eur...rtugal-837906/

Thanks for that Clousie. The trip report is there - if you hover over the title of the report in your post an underscore will appear and then one can click the link.

Oh, thanks, Mel.

I also wanted to say that I enjoyed your trip report very much. You were giving your honest opinions and that is what trip reports should be and I know that is what you always post. Especially when you give reasons for your opinions, that is very helpful. Sorry some people didn't like your comments. By now we are fairly familiar with poster's preferences and I always use that as a filter when reading a report. I didn't feel as though yours changed for this report and would find it helpful if planning a trip there.

I didn't realize you didn't have a car on this trip until I looked back at your report. Now I see why you were more confined to larger cities/towns. I'm very glad we had one so we could get out into rural areas, but it also created some funny stories. Dare I mention that we zipped through many tolls without paying until my friend read in Rick Steeves to beware of doing that. We really are not stupid people, but just mis-interpreted the signage. Don't ask what our thinking was on that, except that we had a very large toll to pay when we finally got off the toll road. We also encountered gridlock on a back street intersection in Sintra and this brash American got out and directed traffic to clear it! We could still be sitting there and I'm sure the box truck drivers have good stories to tell about that.

Hope you find a peaceful place for you GF trip.

Sue54:

With regard to Lisbon restaurants, when I was there in the spring of 2019 I had very positive experiences at Bastardo, which is on the second floor of the International Design Hotel on the southeast corner of Rossio Square (with large picture windows looking out across the square) and at Peixola, a very nouvelle fish restaurant on the west side of the Rua do Alecrim (the right side as you're walking towards the bay, a couple of blocks down from the Praca de Camoes (basically, where the Chiado meets the Bica districts). Bastardo describes itself as "the bastard child of traditional Portuguese cooking," which means it takes traditional dishes and applies creative new twists. Some photos are attached below.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...818ca2ddb7.jpg
The interior of Bastardo
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...f5b0fb7308.jpg
Bastardo: very tender pork dish with banana chips and guava


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...a75dde5ba5.jpg
Dessert, Bastardo-style: a lemon and cinnamon mousseline with powdered chocolate and dulche de leche

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...e7e0f3792c.jpg
Peixola, with its U-shaped dining bar and the kitchen in the back

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fod...11f4f80a3c.jpg
Peixola: cod fritters

Lisbon second thoughts
 

Mel, I have just finished reading your great detailed report as part of planning a trip for April 2023. I am having major second thoughts about Lisbon/Sintra. The crowds and lines sound horrid. I would not enjoy it. I chose April thinking it was “pre-season”. Ha!

MyBaggage -

My more detailed report can be found here.

https://www.fodors.com/community/eur...isbon-1708685/

We too, chose April hoping to avoid the crowds....NOT.

I'll admit, we found the crowds suffocating, and Lisbon and Sintra were the worst of it. Having said that, we did enjoy our stay for the most part. If we were to return, which is highly unlikely, (Porto excepted) we'd go as much off season as absolutely possible. Maybe November-Feb.

Our trip to Portugal was much less relaxing than say, our trips to Switzerland, where we really feel like we 're on holiday. Portugal, for whatever reason, felt like work.

MyBaggage, for another perspective , we loved Lisbon and Sintra and would love to return. We visited in April 2018 but we were there after Easter. The crowds were not suffocating. So perhaps after Easter would be bettter. Different people have different levels of tolerance for crowds, however. The only place we had to wait in line was the Jeronimos Monastery.

You can click on my name to read m trip report if you wish.

We were there in May and it was crowded, though I’d say Lisbon can absorb the crowds better as it’s a big city. Sintra is a small city and the main sights were very crowded, although it is possible to see them despite the crowds, either by going very early or very late. Or, in the case of the Pena Palace, one can enjoy the exterior without going inside. In fact, we did enter the interior but the crowds were terrible and we crawled though a few rooms before we asked if we could leave. We actually arrived at the National Palace at the end of the day and it was practically empty! We really enjoyed it. Personally, I wouldn’t want to visit Sintra on a day trip. We stayed 3 nights, and that allowed us to approach the sights at a comfortable pace.

I do think that this past spring, after 2 years of COVID restrictions, there was a surge in travel, and it seems Portugal was one of the places that everyone wanted to visit! This is anecdotal, of course, but in every conversation I had with someone about travel, I’d hear about someone who is traveling to Portugal! It seemed to be the country of the moment! So crowds may’ve been especially bad this year. Whether it will continue to be like that, who knows?

One could always alleviate some of the crowdage by including the isle of Madeira on the itinerary.
I am done. the rainwater

Thank you, Mel, Karen, and Progol for your feedback, I expect to be “working” while planning a trip, but not while I am executing the plan. This trip is a milestone birthday celebration. For my last milestone birthday I really wanted to be in Venice ON my June birthday. No, no, no, was all of the advice I got. Too hot, too crowded, and too stinky in June. After time in northern Italy alone, I met my daughter in Venice where I had rented an apartment for a week. Our quiet apartment was a 5-minute walk from busy San Marco Piazza. We explored the major sights before 10 and after 4:00, thus avoiding the boat people, while exploring elsewhere and doing a day trip to Padua. One exception, stand in line at noon to see the cathedral illuminated for one hour - worth the wait. But I can’t recall many places that required tickets, so maybe not a great comparison. Oh yes, it was hot, but there were no canal odors anywhere! It was a wonderful, fun, and relaxing, week.

For this trip, I am definitely doing 7-10 days in Andalucia. But it is with a very small tour (6 max) staying in one central location. Not sure that appeals to my daughter, I am interested in Lisbon, so is she, thus, the added 7 days for Lisbon, in an apartment. Including an overnight in Sintra, maybe a day trip to Obidos. She and I have similar travel preferences and we would both be miserable as melnq8 describes her journey in Lisbon/Sintra.

So, maybe I should simply expand my Spain itinerary.

Zebec - I am sure I would enjoy Madeira. But most likely on a return trip. Thanks for the idea.

I think Progol is correct when she says that Portugal was/is the country of the moment for 2022. It’s an easy trip from the east coast of the US, and it’s much less expensive than other major European countries and capitals. Whether it will be just as bad in 2023 is anyone’s guess.

I don’t like to try to convince someone to go somewhere they are very hesitant about and you do seem hesitant to go to Portugal because of the crowds. Spending more time in Andalusia is an excellent suggestion, and spring is one of the best times to travel to Andalusia because the temps are still comfortable. You could spend more time in Granada and Cordoba. We also really enjoyed Malaga, and it’s nice to have the coastal ambience. There is a lot to see and do in Malaga. We spent 2 nights in Malaga and wished we had an extra night. I haven’t been to Cadiz but I hear wonderful things about it.

Have you been to Madrid and Toledo? That would be another excellent choice, too.

Personally, between a visit to Andalucia and a visit to Lisbon/Sintra, it’s no contest for me. We absolutely loved Andalucia - it was one of our top trips ever - and, while we enjoyed our trip to Portugal, including Lisbon/Sintra, it didn’t ever “knock our socks off” so to speak. I think Seville is one of the most gorgeous and liveable cities, with lots to do, and every town in Andalusia is amazing. And I completely agree with KarenWoo’s suggestion for Madrid and Toledo (and we loved Toledo, too).

And again, the experience is so subjective. What we love and what we don’t is a personal reaction at a given time to a place.

Nice to hear all the positive feedback about Andalusia - headed there in October.

Mel, maybe consider including Arcos (de la Frontera) as part of your trip, an under-rated town if ever. Our fave place in Spain.
I am done. the flamingo flamenco

Ah zebec, we've already booked. Barcelona, Seville, Granada and Madrid. So many places, so little time.

KarenWoo and progol - more of Andalucia is sounding good, very good. My neighbor was dismissive about Madrid - “too dirty”. But so many here are raving about it! But then my neighbor tends to do laundry list travel - I like to hang out in a place for a bit. Time to get a book about southern Spain!

We visited Madrid in 2017 and I certainly did not think it was dirty at all. If you like art museums, Madrid is the place to visit for its outstanding art museums. We enjoyed the Prado more than the Louvre. Also loved the Reina Sofia where you can see Picasso’s Guernica. Visited the Royal Palace, Temple Debod, and the market. Loved Retiro Park which is a great place for hanging out and drinking Sangria. There are many more museums that we didn’t have the time to visit.

Definitely buy yourself a good guidebook or two. I typically use Lonely Planet, Fodors, and Michelin Green Guide.

And again, KarenWoo and I are in agreement! Madrid is a beautiful city! The art museums in Madrid are second to none!

I’m glad you’re thinking of more time in Andalucia. You won’t regret it.

In Lisbon, we booked advance tickets for everything we could. We were the first people in the castle in the morning. Advance tickets, plus dinner reservations, lets you avoid crowds and waits.

I may have a controversial view of Sintra. I don't think it is really worth the stress. Of course, what I enjoy is history. Most of the things to view in Sintra are over the top buildings constructed by folks with a whole lot of money, not all that long ago. I personally would rather walk through old castle ruins or old churches than over the top houses. But that's just me.

While I was there, I was constantly thinking of ways to change the Sintra experience to make it less hectic, esp. the Pena Palace...quadruple the ticket price and reduce the number of visitors by 75%. Provide transportation by means of shuttles to and from a parking lot on the outskirts of town.

Anyway, if you are concerned about crowds, book everything you can in advance and arrive a few minutes before opening time.

<<I may have a controversial view of Sintra. I don't think it is really worth the stress. Of course, what I enjoy is history. Most of the things to view in Sintra are over the top buildings constructed by folks with a whole lot of money, not all that long ago. I personally would rather walk through old castle ruins or old churches than over the top houses. But that's just me.>>

I tend to agree with you. The popular houses are not old structures, but private fantasy houses. The places that meant the most to us were the National Palace, the Moorish castle, and Monserrate, though not old, is a stunning house in beautiful surroundings, and a short distance out of town. But Sintra was pleasanter in the evening after the hordes left, and we enjoyed it as a first stop.