Oaktown9

Hello Travelers:

It has been a LONG time since I posted on this site.

I have questions about my upcoming journey to France and Italy. I will lay out the plan and put my questions in bold at the end.

What You Need To Know:

This is not my first trip to either destination.
I have seen the monuments, museums, chateaus, cathedrals, gardens, etc.
I am travelling solo.
I book an exquisite dinner out, every night--and I don't dine early.
I still travel with 2-3 suitcases. I am going to try and do just two. I wish (just a little) that I did not value and really enjoy being well dressed and looking pretty every day as much as I do!

For this journey I am focused on food, wine, and some relaxation.

The Plan:

Paris 3 nights
I do want to go to Orsay, river cruise, hoho, a cooking class, a little shopping, and chill...

Giverny 1 night
Might be cool to just take it all in, be early, chill...

Reims 2 nights
Drink & buy, relax, visit Epernay. No tours-- I know how this drink is made.

Chablis Stop here for obvious reasons.

Dijon 2 nights
Wine, dine, wine, wine, wine...

Beaune 2 nights
See Dijon as well.

Lyon 2 nights
Dine, dine, dine...

Bergerac 1 night
Taste

Bordeaux 3 nights
Wine, dine, wine, wine-- no tours. Buy. Day trip to St. Emillion. Dinner in St. Emillion.

Cognac 1 night
Taste & buy...(laughs!)

Roquefort and Armagnac visit

Carcassonne 1 night
See stuff. Visit Perpignan.

Aix-en-Provence 1 night
Enjoy... Visit Marseille.

St. Tropez 2 nights
Relax, eat, shop, then head to Italy.

Turin, Italy 3 nights
Eat, eat, eat...

Visit Alba, Bra, and Barolo

Asti 2 nights
Because...

Visit Parma and Modena

Bologna 3 nights
Eat, cooking class, drink, chill..

Florence 3 nights
Museum, cooking class, see stuff, eat, drink...

Chianti 2 nights
Drink, eat, relax.

Visit Montepulciano

Prosecco 1 night
Drink & buy

Naples 3 nights
Eat, drink, shop, cooking class, see stuff.

Palermo 2 nights
Eat,drink, Relax a bit.

QUESTIONS:

What parts of this can be done by train?
What parts of this require a car? I want flexibility to wander the wine regions.
How do I get from Palermo, Italy back to Paris without spending a fortune? The cost of a flight from Palermo to California make my head hurt.

What would you add for what I want to do?

Grateful,
Oaktown Traveler

annhig

welcome back, Oaktown - that's quite a trip to come back with.

I would start at the end and sort out the flights. Could you fly back from Rome? flights to and from Palermo and rome are very frequent and cheap. Milan is another option if you changed your Italy trip direction and did south north - you could fly to Palermo from Turin, then fly back to Naples and proceed north from there.

in Italy as you are concentrating on towns and cities, train is best and very easy as I'm sure you know.

I'll have to come back to you on the french leg of the trip!

Cathinjoetown

A couple of quick comments.

With that amount of luggage, perhaps base in Paris longer and do day trips to Giverny and Reims--you could do lovely lunches in both places.

You could then take a train to Beaune or Dijon and pick up a car to tour Burgundy and Chablis. You may already know that Chablis has some wonderful restaurants and the co-op in the village has great wine tastings. Return the car in Lyon and either fly to Bordeaux or carry on driving down to Provence, then over to Bordeaux?

Trains and three pieces of luggage are not a fun combination. Apart from Paris, very few stations have porters or luggage carts. Many stations have stairs to negotiate from one track to another or from the track to the station.

You need to think more about the SW France part--one night in Carcassonne with a visit to Perpignan? Assume you'll be coming from Bordeaux. Then on to Aix? Not a long drive in miles but usually awful traffic.

I understand wanting to dress up for a nice meal but with so many locations, can't you wear the same thing several times? Plenty of dry cleaners about. You write that you want to relax, chill, eat and drink-- my kind of goals but the hectic itinerary doesn't match those goals.

Oaktown9

Dear aanhig:

Thank you for the warm welcome back.

Because of the Sept./Oct. weather and wine/champagne harvest in my destinations,I need to go from the highest point north and then work my way south. Now that is my thinking when I pair France with Italy. Are you suggesting I start in the south just for Italy or for the whole journey?

I would like to train as much as possible. I have to loose some of my luggage to do that. I mean leave some at home.

I await your comments on France.

Thank you.

Hello Cathinjoetown:

Thank you for your comments. Clearly the luggage is a hindrance at this point. UUggh! If I am not able to pare down my wardrobe, I could possible store my bags in Paris for at least the Giverny trip.

The train suggestion for Beaune or Dijon is great. I can compare the cost to rent a car and the cost for an airline ticket to Bordeaux. This is the longest stretch of travel on this journey.
If I did drive, which might make sense if I can't cut the luggage,what would be a good midway place on the way to Bordeaux to grab another night?

On the SW France part, I am open to suggestions. Should Carcassonne be 2 nights and Perpignan be 1 night? What are the alternatives to the traffic?

On the dress up, or dress nice, I do so everyday and most evenings. It is like brushing my teeth twice a day-- which is a good idea and an unbreakable habit. I am that one who will pack a different outfit for each day/night. I am considering-- possibly--maybe wearing each of my wardrobe selections twice. My face contorts at the thought, but I want to not be limited because of this.
I have abot 40 days/nights of travel, so that still adds up to a bunch of clothing, accessories, jewelry,fancy undergarments, cute shoes, etc...

Hectic itinerary? Please tell me where to add more days or make any other adjustments. I can easily do that.

Thanks,
Oaktown Traveler

sueciv

Oaktown...do I remember you from a few years back.
Were you the one who introduced me for the very first time to the phrase "muffin top"?

Cathinjoetown

Oaktown,

If you drove from Lyon to Bordeaux, the shortest route, but over 5 hours not including stops, is more or less west/southwest, skirting Perigord. I'm not familiar at all with that drive, it is pretty, I imagine, as it's across the Massif Central. Hope someone, St Cirq ?, can weigh in.

You say that would be your longest drive, well, Bordeaux to Carcassonne is around 4-5 hours and St Tropez to Turin is a haul..

From Bordeaux you could work your way south and east to Carcassonne, Perpignan then on over to Aix, St Tropez then on in to Italy. I use www.viamichelin.com to plan driving trips but add at least 30% to the times shown.

Without knowing the appeal of Carcassonne and Perpignan I can't comment on how you split your time. I've never spent more than about 4-5 hours in Carcassonne, unfortunately on 3 occasions--once was enough--and have only driven through Perpignan on my way to Collioure.

www.voyages-sncf is good site for train planning or many find www.bahn.de easier to use. A quick glance indicates there are no direct trains Lyon to Bordeaux. Similarly, Bordeaux to Carcassonne would reqire a change in Toulouse, and so on.

I like train travel but given your travel preferences, I can't see it working very well for you.

Cathinjoetown

The 30% add-on is overstated. 15-20% is more reasonable but depends on how many breaks you like to take.

Oaktown9

Hey sueciv! Great memory. Yup, that was me.

Cathinjoetown:

I was using yahoo maps (I know...) to calculate my distances. I have miscalculated a couple of legs because of that.
I will switch to viamichelin right away. Thanks.

The train sites are super helpful. Thank you. I have not trained through France or Italy. I do want to do some stretches on the trains where it makes sense, yet again I have to loose some of my bags.

The Lyon to Bordeaux drive is nice. I drove to Bordeaux via Toulouse, from Andorra several years ago. I am a 1-2 hour drive a day gal. 3 hours is my limit, so I have to find a spot in between.

The Bordeaux to Carcassonne has to be broken up as well.

Perpignan has this: Le Petit Train Jaune and a chef who I have to see.
The train--which I LOVE trains, will have no summer vacationing children on it when I am there.

Perpignan is also super unique in that it has a castle, cathedral, chateau, and a palace that are all of interest to me. To find a spot on this journey where my interest went beyond the bottle means that spot is an absolute must for me.

Perpignan is also a chill spot for this leg of the trip.
A day and a night here would be fine. Lovely places to sleep are also affordable in Perpignan.

Carcassonne: Vineyards and dinner here: O’Vineyards Table d’Hôtes-Restaurant Carcassonne.

Hope these details help.

Cathinjoetown

The details really just satisfy my curiosity. I'll now give Perpignan a second look, my former French teacher lives about 10km out of the centre so another reason to get over there. We keeping talking about getting down to Barcelona, P. would be half way for us.

Any plans to go to Limoux while in Carcassonne? It's fun, about half an hour south.

Another suggestion, check flights from Nice to Turin, then pick up another rental when you leave Turin.
Train from Nice to Turin requires two changes.

Must admit I am fascinated with your costume change requirements. My mother used to say, about wearing the same thing more than once, "You're never going to see these people again." You are well aware the luggage is a burden but one you're willing to shoulder--literally. You could look into shipping a bag from Paris to the mid-point of your trip.

SkipHudgins

Can provide my opinion on the time between Florence and Naples.
Would rent a car out of Florence and keep it for 3 days. Return at Orvieto. Good train connections from there to Naples.
Spend two nights in Chianti region. We like Greve/Panzano area. Lots of vineyards. A few good places to eat. We usually stay at Villa Vignamaggio.
Then travel thru Siena to Southern Tuscany. Try to stop a spend part of the day in Siena. If eating and drinking is big, we like Montalcino more than Montepulciano. Good restaurants. Some places to stay at each end of town that are easy to get to by car and have parking. Better, but more expensive, wine. only a short drive to Orvieto to return car and get train.
Not much prettier drive than driving in Tuscany.
Sounds like a great trip whatever you decide.

annhig

Because of the Sept./Oct. weather and wine/champagne harvest in my destinations,I need to go from the highest point north and then work my way south. Now that is my thinking when I pair France with Italy. Are you suggesting I start in the south just for Italy or for the whole journey?>>

my suggestion of working your way from south to north was limited to Italy - which is at the end of your trip anyway as you refer to the cost of flying from Palermo to California.

i'm more concerned about your luggage though. this truly amazed me:

<<On the dress up, or dress nice, I do so everyday and most evenings. It is like brushing my teeth twice a day-- which is a good idea and an unbreakable habit. I am that one who will pack a different outfit for each day/night. I am considering-- possibly--maybe wearing each of my wardrobe selections twice. My face contorts at the thought, but I want to not be limited because of this.
I have about 40 days/nights of travel, so that still adds up to a bunch of clothing, accessories, jewelry,fancy undergarments, cute shoes, etc.....>>

40 outfits for 40 days? even 20 outfits for 20 days is extraordinary. you are moving every 2-3 days or so. even if you want the people where you are staying to be impressed by your wardrobe, [and goodness knows why you would as you won't see them again!] that means you only need 3 evening outfits and 3 day-time ones. add in some nice scarves and black court shoes to go with all your evening clothes and a couple of pairs of sensible shoes/sandals for day time, and you're fixed. if you need/want anything else, buy it as you go along.

as for laundry/dry-cleaning, do it when you arrive at each new place, [so you have time for it to dry or get it back from the laundry or cleaners] and you can exist on very few clothes and still look terrific every time.

Oaktown9

Wow! Cheers!!!

The travel suggestions are absolutely spot on! I'll get to work on these right away.

Cathinjoe:

Limoux is certainly on my list.
The flying option is on the table. Once again my need to be cover-girl-ready is going to cost me-big. Bags don't fly free on any of the available carriers.

Shipping the bag and shipping things worn back home is how I got through the past four years of travel. After my last long trip, last year, I said I would NEVER pack 3 suitcases again.
I guess it is time to walk my talk!

Skiphudgins:

The car rental out of Florence will work!

Villa Vignamaggio is really pretty! Right now, for my dates, I can get the room for $233. per night. For my overall budget that fits. Thank you.

Siena and Montalciano are places I will visit. Should I add a day on this leg of my journey to not rush this?

annhig:

You crack me up. You made my eyes go as wide as flying saucers talking about me doing laundry and narrowing my 6 closets down to selecting 3 evening outfits and 3 day outfits.

You almost made me make myself a Bloody Mary,or two, with all that scary talk about black court shoes and sensible sandals!

I am a Jimmy Choo/Manolo/St. John/Kate Spade/Tods/ Louboutin/Ferragamo chick. Trust--my shoes are comfortable and adorable. Laughs...

My clothing is also along those same lines--Carefully selected and amazing on. Can't help it. Works for me.

I love color, style, and fashion. It takes less time to put on a sexy sun dress with some pretty sandals than it does to slap on some wrinkled and washed out khaki or beige pedal pushers and some loafer type shoe. Not for me. I know their is a wide range in-between what I do and my example, however I am pretty fixed on the end of the provided travel dressing spectrum.

Yet--I have girlfriends who travel with one roll bag and their attire is also stunning and head-turning. This is a fun and enjoyable part of travel for me--dressing nicely! It feels good to look good and to have complete strangers tell you so.
I like that, too! Smile...

Ok, so, that said, my NEW goal is to only pack 2 suitcases no matter what. Whew... That gives me the willies. Anyway, my dressing has nothing to do with trying to or impressing others. I just like to look good and I like dressing nicely.
My dressing day and night is just a part of my dna.

Here is a secret. Don't tell anyone else: My mom, whom I love, could have given Faye Dunaway who portrayed Joan Crawford, a run for her money with the "No-wire-hangers" line. You know the movie, Mommie Dearest? Yup.

In any event, I don't do laundry when I travel--clearly because I bring enough. Laughs... With my desired change (oh god) I still will not do laundry. I'm bringing 80 underpants because as mom says, "if you get hit by a car, you don't want folks saying you have on raggedy or dirty undergarments..."

Working It Out,

Oaktown Traveler

msteacher

You wouldn't need to do the laundry yourself. In many hotels, especially nicer ones, you can give your laundry to the front desk and they will have it done for you. Lovely to come back to your room in the afternoon and find all your clothes washed and pressed. Costs a few dollars, but certainly cheaper and easier than lugging all those bags around.

Oaktown9

True...

I'll have to revise the budget which is fine.

annhig

I am a Jimmy Choo/Manolo/St. John/Kate Spade/Tods/ Louboutin/Ferragamo chick. Trust--my shoes are comfortable and adorable. Laughs...

My clothing is also along those same lines--Carefully selected and amazing on. Can't help it. Works for me.>>

oakdale - I'm sure it works for you, and that's fine, but my point is, it can still work for you on holiday, and you don't need to lug all that luggage around to do it. I'm sure that you can find 3-4 outfits that will look amazing, and shoes that will match them. Look on it as a liberation and a challenge.

as for taking 80 pairs of knickers with you, heaven help us. you're only going for 40 days! How can you.....[I don't think I'd better write the end of that sentence or I'll get myself banned!]

PatW47

It sounds you will be looking gorgeous everyday!! Sounds great to me. In my younger days when I owned a contemporary woman's clothing store, I loved looking the part (shopped for my store at your LA Apparel Mart). Older now and a widow I am wanting to travel solo to Europe for a month or so. Just don't see myself dragging luggage to trains, being on their time schedule and plan to rent a car as my husband and I always did on our trips there together. Will get it after I leave Paris. I am, however, going to slim down the number of clothing pieces I take. Know your dilemma. My last trip to CA where I rented a car for a driving trip--took way too much and with my purchases, way too heavy. I wish you the best and hope you will include wardrobe descriptions in your trip report.

bilboburgler

I'd combo shipping bags to a variety of hotels along the way and using the cleaning services of hotels along the way.

You've done your research on the vendange but I'm surprised that it goes north to south, I would have thought south to north if anything.

No Loire or Alsace?

Oaktown9

aanhig:

You keep me in stitches!

PatW47:

Thank You! I hope you do travel and may the warm spirit of your husband be with you. I will include descriptions of my chosen attire. The wardrobe challenge is rather exciting. I'm all in.

bilboburgler:

Great idea. Can be done.

I did not put every wine destination in the manifest. I am not big on the wines from those regions, but I'll see if I change my mind. I do like Cab Franc and Cremant from the Loire wine region, but the sweeter wines from Alsace region are not my cup of tea, so to speak.

Because of the Sept./Oct. weather and wine/champagne harvest in my destinations, I need to go from the highest point north and then work my way south.The weather getting cooler in October, wines aside, is also something I want to be mindful of.

What do you suggest?

Thanks,
Oaktown Traveler

Oaktown9

Ok, about the train website, I was diverted to raileurope. I was not aware that I was not on the voyages-sncf site that I had clicked on until later in the afternoon.

I was reading the excellent article below that I had saved in my favorites.
I am so glad that I had taken a break and done so. The cost savings on voyages are huge. I raise this point for any who may read the thread now or years from now.

Be sure to not get diverted like I did. If you do be sure and get on voyages as the article instructs. Here is the link to the invaluable article. I may have gotten it from one of the Fodor's threads. I forget where I found it.:
http://www.seat61.com/France-trains.htm#.UeAmZGLn-M8

The cost of a car from the French Riviera to Turin, Italy is beyond my budget. The drop off fee is major. I looked at flights and a combination of train options before my eyes glossed over and my brain froze.

On the air from Palermo, I have to fly into Rome and then on to Paris or to the USA. I'm weighing the time and money involved for all of the possibilities and options.
when I get past these hurdles, the fun fun detail planning begins.

I am considering getting a rail/car pass for France. I am not sure getting one for Italy makes sense. I may just get a car for the time in Italy. The cost for gas is going to be major.

Thoughts?

SkipHudgins

OT9
I would spend 4 days in Tuscany for sure. Less time in Naples or Sicily.
2 nights Vignamaggio in Chianti
2 nights Montalcino, we like Hotel Dei Capitani
Dsy Stop in Siena in between.
Day trip to Montepulciano/ Pienza /vineyards from Montalcino