Pilates

Hi there. We arrive May 17th depart June 10th (LHR). Initially, we were going to spend some time in London then take a plane to Puglia, but have decided that it would be a great opportunity to stay in the UK and possibly check out a bit of Scotland and Ireland. But I don't know if that is too ambitious. One caveat: We much prefer to take trains/buses.

My sister highly recommends this area and this place in Cornwall http://www.godolphinarms.co.uk/ My cousin highly recommends the Cotswolds. Reading the threads, I am very interested in York. I was thinking that we should stay in London at least 5 nights. I am also very interested in a day trip to Paris.

If you had a little more than 3 weeks time, would you please kindly give me an idea of which cities you would want to visit, and what kind of a loop you would make? Thank you so much!!

Palenque

Here's what would be to me a nice rail itinerary -

London
York
Edinburgh
Inverness
Isle of Skye
The West Highlands rail line to Glasgow and on to the same day
The Lake District
Bath
the Cotswolds

And from London these day trips - Oxford or Cambridge; Stratford-on-Avon; Salisbury and Stonehenge; Windsor

If going by rail much then consider a BritRail Pass IMO - the pass can be used on any train anytime -just hop on- how many people are traveling together because with the BritRail Pass the first two adults pay full price and the 3rd thru 9th travelers pay just 50% of what the first two adults do - kids under 16 get free passes. Now if you do not do such a wide ranging (and very feasible IMO) itinerary like i sketched and you decide to hole up in say the Lake District or the Cotswolds a week each, then just opt for regular tickets - in fact www.nationalrail.co.uk has all the train schedules and prices - a myriad of various fares with conditions, etc. If you book far in advance online and do not wish flexibility - pinning yourself into a specific train that cannot be changed nor refunded then you can cop some great fares online - but if you want total flexibility to just show up at the station and hop any train then a pass may be the best - anyway some fantastic sources on train travel in Britain - www.seat61.com; www.ricksteves.com; www.budgeteuropetravel.com - on the latter you can download their free(and excellent IMO) European Planning & Rail Guide that has a nice chapter on Britain with suggested itineraries like you ask, etc.

Pilates

Thank you Palenque, this is exactly the kind of thing I am looking for. I haven't heard of half of the places you mentioned so this gives me places to look in to. I will also check out the links you gave me. Thank you so much!! Thanks also about the rail pass info...

mohun

23 days is a pretty generous allowance for UK travel. My wife and I used 21 days in 2004 for our UK trip, which was all by rail with Eurorail passes, so I'll just summarize the itinerary without specific recommendations (of which you'll get plenty by experienced Forum travlers). From Seattle we flew to London's Heathrow and transferred to fly to Glasgow, our first destination, at which we stayed overnight. The next day, after a heavy-duty Scots breakfast we traveled by rail northeast to Elgin on Scotland's north coast, thence south by a 30-minute bus trip to Aberlour on the River Spey (home of Walker's shortbread cookies). We spent two full days there with two enjoyable Scotch distillery visits, then returned by bus to Elgin and on by train to Edinburgh for three days, thence south by rail to York for three days, thence southwest by train to Bath for three day, thence east to London for seven days in a very comfortable flat in Mayfair from which we took two day trips (Cambridge and Greenwich), thence to Heathrow for the trip back to Seattle. We'd do a similar trip again (again, 23 days seems a luxurious schedule). We did, by the way, manage six more days in London last summer at the tail end of a trip to Spain and the south of France.

Have a great adventure.

Pilates

mohun, thank you so much for your input. I really appreciate it! It sounds like the north (you in Elgin and Pal in Inverness) is a good destination. I see you also were in Bath. I'll definitely look into that too.

flanneruk

PalQ recommends BritRail passes (not, BTW, something with any connection to Britain's railway companies) so often he might reasonably be thought to have some connection to the French-owned US business himself.

Nonetheless, if ever there was an itinerary the pass probably makes sense for, yours may well be it. However before committing:

1. His itinerary omits Cornwall, which you say you want. Easy to get to by train: really tough to get about by public transport

2.You're only going to want to go to EITHER Cambridge or Oxford, and Oxford fits in easier with your other plans. It, like Salisbury (for Stonehenge), is visitable from a Cotswold base, or Oxford makes a reasonable base for the Cotswolds, Salisbury/Stonehenge and Stratford by train.

3. You really need at least a third of your time in London, possibly punctuated by a day out to Windsor

So there's a case for just 1 or 2 wks of the Britail pass, and also using locally bought day return tickets, medium distance buses, the London area travel passes (like Oyster or Travelcards) and the SE England Network Railcard which gives you 33% off virtualy all train fares within +/- 100 miles of London.

Ultimately, though, you're here on holday, not on an exercise in optimising travel spending. Getting the best deal on our transport systems is impossible, because they're bloody dense and probably make up the world's most complicated public transport system: whatever assumptions you make about your travels, you'll end up doing something else.

Personally, I'd strongly recommend you sort of ignore PalQ on one crucial issue. Start off by planning an itinerary, based on your own research and the suggestions you'll get here. THEN worry about the cheapest way of following that itinerary.

Start off with a pass, and you're in danger of organising your holiday round the pass, not round what you want to see

janisj

23 days sounds really generous but it does fly past. I personally wouldn't try a loop tour from London north and back south again.

A variation on mohun's itinerary . . . . If it was me (and relying on trains -- the suggestions would be different w/ a car) upon landing at LHR I'd fly directly up to Inverness. Note - May 28-31 is the bank Holiday weekend when scenic areas will be very crowded so you'll want to book those nights (and trains) as soon as possible

Spend the rest of day-1 getting over the jet lag. Normally I steer folks away from staying IN Inverness. But for the first 2 nights of your trip it would be a good starting offpoint. The town itself doesn't warrant 2 nights -- but you can take tours to Culloden and a boat trip on Loch Ness.

Nights 1-2 May 17 - 18 Inverness

Nts 3-5 May 19 - 21 on Skye

Nt 4 May 22 in Stirling

Nts 5-7 May 23 - 25 in Edinburgh

Nts 8-9 in the Lakes May 26-27 (you'll want to be out of the Lakes before the Bank Holiday for sure)

Nts 10-12 May 28-30 in York. See York but also take local tours to the Dales/Moors/Castle Howard

Nts 13 - 16 May 31 - June 3 In/near the Cotswolds. There is VERY little rail service in the Cotswolds. But there are trains to Moreton-in-Marsh from where you could take local buses to someplace like Chipping Campden and use it as a base to tour the area.

Nt 17 in Bath June 4

Nts 18 - 22 In London

Depart June 23.

janisj

Meant to add -- (and not seeing flanner's post since we were posting at the same time . . .

I honestly would spend my time in England including London Cornwall the Cotswolds and York not try to cover the whole of two countries in such a short period. My itinerary was only IF you really want to "do" Scotland. Mind you Scotland is my very favorite place on Earth - but w/ limited time you might want to focus on a smaller area.

Partly depends on how much time you want in London though . . .

Pilates

Thank you flannerUK and Janisj. I have a lot of studying to do. I think I would enjoy going into Scotland for sure. With more than 3 weeks and the fact that we do enjoy train travel, I would want to go for it. A couple of you said that from LHR that you go directly to the north. For these shorter routes are there certain airlines that usually are better than others as far as rates and "hassle free"? As an example, I have heard such negative things about Ryanair.

I am very glad to know about the bank holiday. We really enjoy traveling without a lot of room reservations, although to get away with that, we normally travel in the shoulder season. We're kind of pushing that "shoulder" so I understand that we need to be somewhere that weekend in May where there are plenty of sleeping options. I usually have a basic itinerary as to the towns we want to hit and fact sheets per town like hotels/B&Bs, restaurants, sites to see, etc. We enjoy freedom to stay an extra night or two, or leave town when it doesn't suit our fancy.

Thanks once again for your contributions. You are all such a great help.

janisj

Check BMI for flights to either Inverness or Edinburgh. Nice airline.

Another option would be to do your trip in reverse -- start out in London the first few days and then take trains to Bath and on north from there. Then at the end fly back to LHR from Inverness (or Edinburgh) to catch your flight home.

Either route works about the same. Just make sure you aren't in the Lake District over the Bank Holiday. It gets really really crowded.

azzure

Bookmarking - I love the rail-based itineraries. Thanks.

Pilates

Thanks Janis, I had never heard of BMI. I will check out Skye and Stirling too. I had never checked out the UK threads so all of these towns and districts are "Greek to me". I am feeling slightly overwhelmed, but I remember feeling the same when we were getting ready to spend a couple of weeks in Sardinia, which worked out splendidly!

BTW Flanner, I think you have a good idea of getting my basic itinerary together first and then determining which pass or railway system makes the most sense for our destinations.

I also appreciate the suggestions on this thread for doable day trips.

Palenque

Flanner you show total ignorance of the actual situation in your post:
<BritRail passes (not, BTW, something with any connection to Britain's railway companies) so often he might reasonably be thought to have some connection to the French-owned US business himself.>

1- BritRail is in no way a French-owned business (though some rail franchises in Britain indeed are, along with much of the water supply)

2- BritRail is certainly connected to Britain's railway companies, who divvy up the profits between them - yup profits off foreign tourists from passes are used to prop up Britain's typically failing rail franchises - promoting BritRail Passes thus benefits the British rail ride, like Flanneur's commute from a Cotswold Hillock to London

I have used at leat 50 BritRail Passes and have always found them, for my plans, a great deal - especially the fact that i can just show up at a train station and hop on any train anytime - no queueing for tickets, no weeks in advance online pegging myself in, etc.

And yes in a Forum where the mantra is 'Railpasses are ALWAYS a waste of money' i will continue to boost their benefits for folks wanting to tour Britain by train- yes the lone voice doing so and then trying to be intimidated for doing so by the likes of Flanneur, who i wager never rides any train save for the commuter train into London.

Cholmondley_Warner

We can't buy these passes you arse.

texasbookworm

There's no way I'm going to enter the fray between CW, flanner, and palenque--

But here's my 2cents worth--DH and I found the BritRailPass (since as Americans we could buy them) a wonderful item because of what palenque points out--the flexibility. If the flexibility is worth the extra the passes cost over planning ahead and using certain trains, then look into that option. If not, then there are cheaper ways to travel. But as Americans who wanted complete flexibility (we were able to choose days AND times immediately before traveling) and who don't use trains stateside, the passes were wonderful. They wouldn't have even been an option if we were British.

Palenque

texas has summed up well why I strive to point out to Americans at least the beauty of a BritRail Pass - hopping any train anytime - priceless to me at least. Of course you do have to be taking several trains or at least some long-distance ones, etc.

Flanner and ilk however have repeatedly here (on Fodor's threads) castigated me (calling me a 'snake oil salesman at times') and said the passes were a waste of money - well money is not the only criteria, but ease of use, flexibility, etc. as texasbookworm points out. But the passes present a great option for Americans and foreign tourists planning a wide-ranging U.K. rail trip - and even often economically a boon too - like the Party Pass where the 3rd thru 9th members of a group pay only 50% of what the first two adults pay for the pass - or the Family Pass where all kids under 16 go free.

That said many Americans automatically think railpass when thinking of European and British trains no matter what their actual plans are and passes are not nearly for every trip plan.

Again www.nationalrail.co.uk has all the fares, conditions, ability to easily book your own ticket - all the options - i will continue to point out passes to those whose plans merit it - will not be bullyied by bullies who call me a 'snake oil salesman'

Pilates

Hi Pal: I just want to say that I will definitely be checking out that pass once I have a better idea of the route we want to take, particularly if we take the train far north instead of flying to somewhere like Inverness. I understand that I need to weigh in the various factors. There are a lot of people who don't like the Eurail passes either saying they are too expensive, but my first time to Europe, I got a Eurail pass that really fit my needs-and even saved me a little bit of money.

TexasBW: thank you too!

Palenque

Yes Pilates the mantra on Fodor's is that railpasses are ALWAYS a waste of money - this ironically from many who seem to never ride trains themselves. I've had at least 200 separate railpasses and each and every one has been both a financial bonanza and also, in countries where reservations are not mandatory, great for just hopping on any train anytime, like you can in Britain.
That said one must make at least some checks on ordinary ticket prices if they are not traveling extensively on trains - but the old mantra about railpasses always being a waste of money is just a case of if you say something enough everyone will come to believe it without thinking.

mohun

A follow-up to my earlier post, for our UK trip we purchased a 7-day BritRail pass (I forgot to mention, above, our day trip from Bath to Cardiff, Wales) and used all 7 days worth quite easily. It was a real bargain for us because of the less-hassle, ticket-buying factor alone.

Palenque

Am for a real leisurely trip i would say go for a first-class pass in Britain - i've had 40 or so first-class BritRail Passes and have always appreciated the first-class aspect - too many times i have seen Standard Class (2nd cl) train cars SRO - hard at times to get two seats together, etc. but in all my years on first-class travel i have never ever not seen at least several empty seats in first class if not many more. And there is a huge difference between first and standard class IME in Britain -much more so IMO than on the Continent - Standard class seats are to me at least really cramped-much more cramped than Continental trains - so any one tall, large, etc. especially may find the first class option - yeh though quite a bit more expensive, to be the way to go. If you were commuting on a train everyday as Brits may then of course the huge savings over a year would dictate Standard Class but for the trip of your lifetime i'go first class on British trains.