Evening footwear for men in Italy
 

Husband packing. Bringing substantial sandals appropriate for all but nicest restaurants here in the southwest -- question is, should he pack full shoes for the few nice restaurants we will want to visit in Rome and Tuscany?

Sandals are just fine. No need to pack dress shoes.

If you really want to go to nice restaurants, pack proper shoes. You will definitely be treated better than with sandals. Italians value shoes very high.

http://www.verycool.it/2008/05/08/bo...e-ed-eleganza/

I agree with Echanton. You are treated differently when nicely put together.

My husband always packs and wears nice leather dress shoes to dinner and during the day a smart walking shoe.

Maybe that explains why I always get the special house table next to the door to the kitchen!! :)

Sandals on men are just not good at any time.....

I would not walk into a nice restaurant with a man wearing sandals.

Have you ever read "Kitchen Confidential" by Anthony Bourdin?

If yes, you would know that patrons are classified when they enter a restaurant and when they order. Bourdin writes graphically what happens if someone orders a steak well-done.

In Italy, as well as in other European countries, the same thing happens.

I used to work in Rome and visited quite a few restaurants. And often, I would observe how American tourists were treated and how they looked when they got their meal and how they complained afterwards ("we were so disappointed by the Italian food - the only good meal that we got was at the Holiday Inn's restaurant").

It is not the fact that they are Americans - the Italians love Americans and even adopted American cuisine to one of their national dishes, spaghetti carbonara. It is the fact that some tourists (not only American tourists, also tourists from other countries) DISRESPECT their culture. And, I have to say that, people like J62 (there are others) deliberately disrespect their culture.

There are a few pitfalls for visitors:

First pitfall: Request an open-air table. Romans prefer to eat inside, where it is cool. Tourists always want to eat outside.

Second pitfall: Are not dressed properly, e.g. wear shorts. Or sandals. Or, to make it worse, both.

Third pitfall: Order just pasta. A proper Italian meal consists of four courses: antipasti, pasti, secondo piatto, dolce. If you order four courses, the waiter will smile knowingly - even if you wear shorts and sandals.

Fourth pitfall: Order tab water and nothing else. Or order cola. Or order the cheap house wine (which comes from North Africa or Chile).

Fifth pitfall: Order Chianti. Or Barolo. This shows that you do not know nothing about wine but you are willing to pay handsomely. An open invitation to rip you off. If you order the regional wine (which is usually less expensive than Chianti or Barolo) they will love you because you appreciate their efforts and because they appreciate that you have read your guidebook.

A few notes:

1) Men shouldn't wear sandals.

2) There is no such thing as nice sandals.

3) All that being said, nobody cares what you wear. Wear what you want. I guarantee that there will be at least one Italian in the restaurant that is dressed worse than your husband. I mean this. People joke about the cliched image of the Italian man with a greasy mullet and hairy chest peaking out of a cheap button-down shirt, but this cliche (unfortunately) exists.

4) Bear in mind that Anthony Bourdain, while exceedingly entertaining, ran a rather pedestrian restaurant of no real note. He should not be viewed as any sort of authority on dining, etiquette, or anything similar. FWIW, I believe I have seen him in sandals on his show.

5) What kind of restaurants serve North African wines? Seriously. The only people disrespecting anyone are the owners of such restaurants. Outside of Egypt, I have NEVER seen North African wines on a menu.

6) Should one take advice on wine from someone that has been to restaurants that serve North African wines? Probably not.

7) The reality is that, if you like Barolo or Chianti, a proper restaurant that actually gives two s**ts about wine will help guide you to one of these "great" regional wines, using your likes as a helpful guideline. Speaking categorically about how "regional" wines are better suggests that some like to paint themselves as superior, at the expense of genuinely trying to help people. Restaurants have a choice - rip you off or not - and those that would rip you off for ordering a Barolo, rather than an Amarone are pathetic, miserable excuses for restaurants. Unfortunately, there are a many such restaurants in Italy, and those that call them out on it are accused of "disrespecting the culture", when the reality is that we are simply sticking up for good wine and good wine service.

Pack your sandals for day time wear and buy a nice pair of shoes in Italy, in summer its quite common for men to wear lightweight shoes without socks too.

Of course, you never seen North African wines of a menu. But have you ever seen where the "house wine" comes from?

Go to a supermarket. The cheapest wines you will find on the shelf are from North Africa or (increasingly) from Chile. What do you expect from a "house wine" in a restaurant? A second wine from a Brunello di Montalcino? C'mon, it is the cheapest wine available. And most probably, the "house wine" in an Italian restaurant is not from Italy.

I am saying that because I always read that some (not all) Fodorites recommend ordering the "house wine". I would not do that. And travelgourmet is right: the better restaurants do not have a nondescript "house wine".

A second thought about regional wines: Regional wines are often the best choice because they contain the same minerals as the produce from the region that you eat, so flavours match perfectly. It is a matter of soil. This is the reason why wines which taste wonderfully during a vacation are often disappointing when you bring them home.

5) "What kind of restaurants serve North African wines? Seriously. The only people disrespecting anyone are the owners of such restaurants. Outside of Egypt, I have NEVER seen North African wines on a menu."

Your loss. Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia make excellent wines. Just because you've never seen them on a menu does not mean they do not exist or that it is disrespectful to serve them in a restaurant. Try a Boulaouane Gris or a Guerrouane with lamb or a Sidi Brahim with couscous ........

Well said, Pvoyageuse.

I aagree that there are many very nice wines from North Africa. I can't recall ever seeing them on the wine list of a European restaurant that wasn't Moroccan, Tunisian, Algerian, Libyan, etc., though.

Well back to your question, arizonaa. I assume you husband has a good looking pair of leather loafers or laced shoes and if so that would be good to wear when going to dinner, especially in Rome. When you say Tuscany do you mean the countryside versus Florence? Even than I would consider a pair of leather shoes more appropriate. So would the Italians. They do have a love affair with shoes. Anyway, if your husband refuses to do so I can assure you that the fashion police won't write a citation but I also would think he would end up wishing he had more than just sandals to wear.
Wishing you a beautiful trip and wonderful meals!

Rome and Tuscany are not Capri and Positano. Sandals in the summer have their place in Italy: an elegant restaurant in Rome and/or Panzano is not the place for sandals on an Arizona male.

<i><font color=#777777>"First pitfall: Request an open-air table. Romans prefer to eat inside, where it is cool. Tourists always want to eat outside."</font></i>

I'm not sure what this "pitfall" business means but the above statement is ridiculously laughable. Romans invented the art of dining outdoors, especially in a piazza that is closed to vehicular traffic. I've worked with several Italian film crews and, when given a choice, everyone prefers to eat outdoors unless it's raining. Even then, some refuse to come inside.

<i><font color=#777777>"Second pitfall: Are not dressed properly, e.g. wear shorts."</font></i>

Italian men wear shorts but these men are not often found in the bigger cities. If you visit the country in August and/or the smaller resort towns, you'll see plenty of locals schlepping in shorts. Last August, my favorite born-and-raised-in-Italy bar owner on Lake Como wore cargo shorts and sandals all summer long. Of course, tourists stand out when they wear shorts because they still look like (tacky) tourists. An Italian can spot an Italian a mile away, same with a tacky tourist.

<i><font color=#777777>"Third pitfall: Order just pasta. A proper Italian meal consists of four courses"</font></i>

The days of four courses are long gone. This rule may still apply to the fabric-clothed ristoranti but, even then, Italians are eating less these days. Health conscience is now a global concept. When in doubt, simply ask if one course is OK before being seated.

<i><font color=#777777>"order the cheap house wine"</font></i>

Many restaurants in Italy take pride in the wine chosen as "house." You have to ask, you have to taste. Many Italians think it's silly to pay a lot of money for wine. Many restaurant owners know the lower-priced jewels.

<i><font color=#777777>"Order Chianti. Or Barolo. This shows that you do not know nothing about wine but you are willing to pay handsomely."</font></i>

How silly. If you're having steak, order a rich, full-bodied red. If you absolutely love a Barolo in August, order what you love.

Some Fodorites say the silliest things.

I am fairly new to the Fodor Community and this is all very interesting -- the twists and turns in the post, and the assumptions. After the recent legislative debacles in AZ, I tried unsuccessfully to change my screenname. I'll share that we live in Arizona by way of decades in each Manhattan and Los Angeles. The variously helpful, humorous, self-serving, snobby, snarky, and even insulting replies prompted a discussion between my (non-neanderthal) husband (who owns Italian shoes but likes to travel light) and I about how we wouldn't want visitors from other countries to feel they needed to change their apparel to obtain good service in the United States. (Should a Parisian woman forsake her elegantly scarved ensemble for the U.S. stereotype of velour and running shoes? Or the jeans, faded T-shirts and uncombed hair of our royalty, "celebrities" who command the best tables and service?)

In the end, we received some answers to our simple question. So this was helpful. And a little sad. I hope the Italians are more welcoming.

This post has indeed taken some twists and turns. The Italians you encounter at restaurants will likely be more welcoming than people on Fodor's. Just take a look at the thread asking for opinions about European beaches! Which restaurants specifically are you planning to visit in Rome? And what do the sandals look like? If it's hotter than Hades I could see perhaps certain types of sandals at chic-but-not-ultra-fancy restos in Rome.

Have a great trip. I don't think the shoes will be a big deal.

<i><font color=#777777>"...prompted a discussion between my (non-neanderthal) husband (who owns Italian shoes but likes to travel light) and I about how we wouldn't want visitors from other countries to feel they needed to change their apparel to obtain good service in the United States."</font></i>

The United States is a melting pot of cultures, tastes and languages. Anything goes here. Well, almost anything. Italy is more homogenous, even though there is a north and a south and what they think of each other.

<i><font color=#777777>"Should a Parisian woman forsake her elegantly scarved ensemble for the U.S. stereotype of velour and running shoes?"</font></i>

I don't see where men's naked toes fit in with that question. Some cultures revere naked feet in public, others do not. Italian shoes are a leading commodity in Italy. (Italian) Sandals with exposed toes (which is what people assume when you use the word sandal) are made for a non-Italian market. Or they're worn in appropriate places, regardless of what you paid for them. Would you wear Crocs and enter St. Peter's? Crocs travel light.

When you ask a clothing question on Fodor's, you hold on tight and prepare for the ride. Obviously, your husband can wear whatever he likes on his feet. Nobody here can stop him. But, truth be told, there are a lot of people here who hope you will spare him any possible embarrassment and encourage him to look his appropriate best at all times. Packing these days is a bitch but one pair of dress shoes for that special evening dinner won't kill anybody. And if they tip the scale, you can run out and buy lighter luggage. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Have a lovely trip.

It was a yes or no question. Interesting where people took it. I'm just saying.

There are no yes or no answers in Fodors land. Welcome to the boards :-)

PS

I'd pack one pair of shoes just to be safe.

Hi Arizona,

I live here, so I thought I'd chime in. There is a philosophy code in Italy---it's called "La Bella Figura"--which essentially is a way of expressing beauty, aestethics, good image and proper behavior, (all of this as seen by others)---in other words your outwards appearance. Italians are VERY concerned with always maintaining "un Bella Figura", which in the case of your husband's shoes would depend on where you plan on going.

If you are going to beach/resorts/lake areas then sandals or even flip flops would go unnoticed. However if you took the same ensemble into La Scala to see an opera, perhaps people might look at you curiosly. Most Italian men in the summer would probably throw on a pair of moccasins, or slip-on loafers. These won't take up alot of space in the luggage and would make even a pair of cargo shorts that little bit more elegant. My husband would personally throw them in.

At the end of the day, it all depends on what kind of restaurant you choose to go to, it's obvious that in certain michelin starred restaurants a pair of shoes might be regarded better , but in a pizzeria/osteria/trattoria, sandals would be fine. In the big tourist cities like Rome and Florence, I doubt the shoes will be an issue, if you look around you'll probably always find other TOURISTS dressed the same(the Italians will probably have closed shoes). In the end YOU may feel more comfortable entering a fancy restaurant with you husband's toes covered, I'm sure that the restuarant owner will be happy enough to take your money either way! :-)

As for the House wine issue, Italy is a producer of many wonderful wines. and as someone mentioned, many osterias/trattorias actually take much pride in offering a local wine on tap. Of course this all depends on the restuarant you choose, some wines will be better than others---you can always order a 1/4 liter to try and decide yourself.

BTW, the dollar is getting stronger and the Euro weaker, so perhaps you can forget the shoes at home and buy a new pair as a souvenir! Oh yeah FYI, a big difference between Italians and tourists is that Italians generally don't order a cappucino after 12 noon. :-)

Buon Viaggio!

I would be more concerned with bad weather. There is nothing worse than walking in the rain with sandals and wet feet.

Still, I get startled by the aggressiveness of some posters here on this forum (maybe too many drinks?).

As a European, I am trying to give the best answers about etiquette in Europe if somebody asks for it.

If I'm going to a nicerestaurant for dinnerI definitely do NOT want to lookatsomestrangeman's hairy and probabl dirty feet while eating it. (I dare anyone to walk any distance in a cobblestoned city street ad still have clean feet. This is not walking from a house to a car to a mall - this is walkiing city streets (which are hundreds of years old, uneven, filled with crevasses and potholes - and dirt).

IMHO if a man can't be bothered to wear real shoes, real pants and a realshirt - at a minimum- to dinner he should stick to casuale cafes and tavola caldas.

I have had two outstanding experiences with house wines.
One was in a small backstreet restaurant where the house red was one of the best wines I have ever tasted.
The other was in a more touristy place where the house wine actually had no bouquet. It was wine coloured water to all intents and purposes.

I remember going to a nice restaurant in Venice one evening.
We were both dressed for the evening, slightly more smartly than during the day.
All the tables seemed to have reserved notices. I told the waiter that we had not reserved but asked if he had a table.
He did.
Shortly after, a couple dressed in shorts etc. asked and were told that unfortunately all tables were reserved. The waiter was very polite and apologetic and pointed to the reserved notices.
A few minutes after that, a well-dressed young couple had also not reserved, but were found a table.

"The days of four courses are long gone".

Well, if you order an antipasto, some meat or fish, a vegetable and a dessert you've got a 4-course Italian meal.
What Echanton meant to say, I am sure, is that it is not done to walk into a restaurant and order pasta and nothing else.
Why do you suppose many restaurant in Venice post large signs saying "we don't serve pasta"?

As to not wanting to eat in open-air, it is not as unusual as you say in Southern Europe. Who would want to eat under a scorching sun and risk getting pidgeon droppings in his plate?

<i><font color=#777777>""The days of four courses are long gone"."</font></i>

In the context of the discussion, my statement should be read as, "Restaurants requiring customers to consume four courses are few and far between."

<i><font color=#777777>"Why do you suppose many restaurant in Venice post large signs saying "we don't serve pasta"?"</font></i>

Those who do a little study before packing their bags will know that pasta <b>is not</b> and <b>never has been</b> an indigenous dish in Venice. Historically speaking, polenta is the starch of choice there. But many tourists are ignorant and go to Venice assuming that spaghetti can be found in every corner of the country. And since Venice gets its share of ignorant tourists, some restaurants there feel a need to post a sign to prevent them from entering. The stern signage has nothing to do with ordering one course.

ROFL ..... ask any waiter in Venice (or elsewere in Italy for that matter) - that is if you have bothered to study a little Italian before packing your bag - and they'll tell you they don't want people to walk in, order a dish of pasta and nothing else and leave after having eaten on the cheap.
But you probably think that pasta e fagioli and pasta al nero cannot be found in Venice and Veneto.
Your condescending tone is very amusing especially to someone born to an Italian mother :-))

You can roll on the floor laughing as much as you like. Having an Italian mother does not make you an authority on Venetian culture. I don't find your condescending tone amusing at all. I never said pasta "can't be found" in Venice. Maybe someone else here will appreciate your lack of knowledge and distortions.

Hmmmm, not to contradict but......

Perhaps I'm living in a different Italy, but in all honesty, I've never had problems ordering a "simple" pasta dish anywhere. This is a very common request of many parents for kids, Most restaurants are more than happy to accommodate a "pasta in bianco" (plain old boiled pasta with olive oil and cheese) or a "pasta pomodoro" simple tomato sauce. Even in Venezia. :-)

Venezia is really such a touristic city, that it is very hard to eat "very well" there, sure there are thousands of restaurants, but I am talking about the ones where the Veneziane go. Personally when I go to Venezia I tend to eat more traditional food as baccala (in all its many forms) which is always served with polenta. But another very popular way of eating well (and inexpensively) in Venezia is to "andar per bàcari o cicheti".

Anyway wasn't this a discussion about shoes?:-)

Must say this whole discussion has made me hungry.......

<i><font color=#777777>"Anyway wasn't this a discussion about shoes?"</font></i>

I thought the discussion was about an Arizona (by way of Manhattan and Los Angeles) man flashing his naked toes, exposing his dirty digits at a few "nice" restaurants in Rome or Tuscany because he liked to travel light. :-)

" Having an Italian mother does not make you an authority on Venetian culture."
Of course not. Not having one either.


"Maybe someone else here will appreciate your lack of knowledge and distortions."

Probably the same people who appreciate your arrogance.

The "substantial sandals" referred to in the original post are high quality, leather, and toes are covered.

Thanks to those who offered their perspective in kindness. Epcrema, especially for La Bella Figura.

NYCFoodSnob: "Arizona man?" YOU made it about that, twice. And about naked toes and dirty digits. Your forum personality works really hard to soil and spoil what could be a helpful, fun and positive communal experience. And reveals a poisonous inner life in the process, which a smiley face does not ammeliorate. Please don't reply to my posts, we'll be better served (and happier) without the view from your perspective.

OP wanted some advice about etiquette in "nice" restaurants in Rome and Tuscany. The original question focused on footwear, but we tried to extend the etiquette question a bit and to give hints how to feel comfortable and how to be treated well in "nice" restaurants.

What counts, is always the overall picture. When you go into a restaurant well-dressed, when you order an apéritif and a nice bottle of wine, but when you skip the main course because you aren't that hungry or you are suffering from gout, then you are fine. When you are just coming from a hike in shorts and hiking boots and you order a four-course meal for lunch and a good bottle of wine, you will also be treated well.

But when you are wearing shorts and sandals AND when you are ordering just a bowl of spaghetti AND the cheap house wine, THEN everything cries "parsimonious tourist who will never come back". You can do that when you go to a simple trattoria, but when you go for dinner to a good restaurant you should be dressed properly and order properly, otherwise it can happen what happened to MissPrism. Or you will be seated but served the appetizers from the day before or the dessert that did not turn out quite so well..

We just want to give OP the best possible advice and it is quite hard to understand why some posters use this thread to start a heated argument. It also puzzles me when non-Europeans insist in knowing European etiquette better than Europeans.

<i><font color=#777777>"Your forum personality works really hard to soil and spoil what could be a helpful, fun and positive communal experience. And reveals a poisonous inner life in the process, which a smiley face does not ammeliorate."</font></i>

Poison? Oh, dahling, your projection of me is pure fantasy. I am helpful, fun, and always an optimist. To enjoy me, it helps to have a sense of humor and only take me seriously when I offer travel advice. :-) My last post, answering epcrema's question, was a complete joke. Too bad you missed that.

I wasn't aware that the OP had talked about wearing shorts so how did THAT get into this mix?

I would agree that you can ALLOW yourself to be treated "differently" depending on what you wear but please bear in mind that the nicest restaurants and the attitudes that go with them where you LIVE are NOT necessarily the same as the nicest restaurants you are planning to eat in IN ITALY.

Yes, men wear sandals there and some of those sandals cost HUNDREDS of Euros and "Mr Dress Code" above can say what he wants but I can tell you, from experience, that you are not going to be treated like dirt unless you look AND ACT like it.

arizonaa;

You're original post noted....
"Bringing substantial sandals appropriate for all but nicest restaurants here in the southwest"

If he is comfortable with them, substatial sandals should be
O.K. for all but the "few nice restaurants" you visit.
For those maybe he would be more comfortable if his footwear choice is the same as he wears at the "nicest restaurants here in the southwest"

"A man cannot be comfortable without his own approval".......
Mark Twain

Have a great trip.

"Fifth pitfall: Order Chianti. Or Barolo."

So when I ordered a bottle of Chianti in the hills of Chianti I was an idiot? Can that cool, know-it-all celebrity chef guy tell if it is stupid to order a Manhattan when I visit Manhattan this fall? I'll be waiting anxiously for his answer.

((H))