arizonaa,

Yes.

Zoecat: OK! Thanks.

Well, I’ll chime in with my ten cents worth.

Take a pair of shoes – they don’t need to be flash, and might come in handy.

I have never seen a sign in Venice saying “We don’t serve pasta”.

Risotto is the alternative carbohydrate to pasta in Venice. Not polenta, which is served with a dish, rather than as a dish by itself.

Some wine is good, some wine is not so good.

It’s OK to order pasta as a main (and only) dish at a restaurant.

On the whole, Italians dress rather better than Australians. Can’t comment on whether Italians dress better than citizens of the USA, because I’ve only ever seen citizens of the USA when they have been travelling. By contrast, Italians are more likely to be driving banged up cars – panel damage does not seem to stress them as much as it does Australians.


No matter what, do have a great holiday. And don't be afraid to ask more questions on Fodors.

"I have never seen a sign in Venice saying “We don’t serve pasta”. "

See answer Nb.2
http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/434670

Sometimes information that is offered at 10-cents is worth less.

From Essentials of Classic Italian Cooking by Marcella Hazan:

<i>"Pasta has become so universally accepted as the national dish of Italy that it is difficult to believe that not much farther into the past than two generations ago, pasta was as foreign to certain Italian regions as it might have been to, say, Lapland. For a quarter of a millennium, in the Veneto and Fiuli, as well as in much of Lombardy, it was polenta, more than any other food, that sustained life. Preparing it was a ritual, eating it was like receiving a sacrament."</i>

Risotto (rice) is currently popular throughout Italy but it wasn't until the late 1400's that seeds were brought in and rice fields were established in the Po Valley to meet the growing food demands of the prospering towns. Some food historians credit Venice for introducing rice recipes to Italy, probably brought to Venice via the Arab states through trade. Their is documentation that the master chefs of the Doge would prepare <i>minestra di riso</i> at state dinners that centuries later evolved into a modern day risotto recipe.

There is also evidence that polenta can be traced back to Etruscan times with cornmeal added to the recipe, also during the late 1400's. Venice gets the credit for introducing polenta made with cornmeal, which they call <i>grana turco</i> (Turkish wheat) to this day. And given that Venice has historically preferred to be unique within Italy, polenta's place at the Venetian table makes sense.

What any of this has to do with Arizona toes beats me. :-) (Sorry, dahling, sometimes I just can't resist.)

This is a very amusing thread.

As if any of you know the difference between a Teva and Lanvin sandal.

Nobody gives two shits what you wear out to dinner in Rome.

Nobody gives a shit whether you sit inside or outside.

Nobody cares. Do you really think city folk walk around wondering about your shoe choice? Do you think other diners look over and wonder about your pasta choice?

They don't.

As someone who has lived in big cities all of his life, and who has just returned from Rome (stayed at the 5-star St. Regis Grand Hotel), you could take off all your clothes, stand on your head and shit yams out of your ass and nobody would pay you any mind.

No one cares. Order what you want to eat. Sit where you want to sit. Wear what you want to wear on your feet.

Thin

<i>As if any of you know the difference between a Teva and Lanvin sandal. </i>

Lanvin or Teva, it doesn't matter. A sandal is not a man's shoe. Fine for ladies. Fine for little girls. Not a man's shoe. And, yes, I am fully aware of the difference between the two. Still not a man's shoe.

That being said, we can agree that nobody cares what you wear.

<<The "substantial sandals" referred to in the original post are high quality, leather, and toes are covered.>>

Will your gladiator be sporting a toga as well?

http://tinyurl.com/2ft2996

I would have no problem with any man wearing this sandal to dinner in Rome.

I wouldn't wear it to La Pergola, but I think it would be fine for the type of restaurants that most Fodorites dine at.

Two weeks ago, I had lunch at L'Ecole at the French Culinary Institute in Manhattan. Jacques Pepin was sitting across from me. The man sitting next to me was wearing flip-flops.

No one batted an eyelash at those cheap, rubber flip-flops.

Thin

>>>I would have no problem with any man wearing this sandal to dinner in Rome.>>

I bet you won't have a problem with a man wearing nothing to dinner in Rome.

>I bet you won't have a problem with a man wearing nothing to dinner in Rome.<

Well, if he looks anything like you, I would.

I have seen enough fat naked Germans at the pool at the Rodos Park Hotel in Rhodes to last me the rest of my life.

Right, Weadles???? :)

Thin

<i><font color=#777777>"This is a very amusing thread."</font></i>

I thought so, too. (Very funny, St Cirq!)

<i><font color=#777777>"I would have no problem with any man wearing this sandal to dinner in Rome."</font></i>

Thin, darling, nobody cares about getting your approval. The OP (and others) are concerned about the La Moda Polizia and members of their <i>family</i>.

<i><font color=#777777>"I think it would be fine for the type of restaurants that most Fodorites dine at."</font></i>

Yes, ugly, naked toes are perfectly acceptable at La Carbonara.

<i><font color=#777777>"No one batted an eyelash at those cheap, rubber flip-flops."</font></i>

Eric Ripert is a star. He can wear anything he wants.

Oh my goodness! What interesting reading this has been! I, too, was interested in the answer to the shoe question. I got more than I bargained for when I read this thread!

That being said, my husband will be taking top siders (leather boat shoes), low profile dark sneakers and perhaps, though I'm not so sure now, leather sandals.

I hope that he will not offend anyone with his choice of footwear, but since I doubt we will be doing much eating at any fancy restaurant, I think he'll be alright.

I hope. :)

Why ask a question, then get indignant when people disagree with what you want to do?

Sandals are inappropriate for a man going to dinner, unless he's 25 and dinner is in Malibu. No matter how substantial or expensive, they don't fit in well at a nice restaurant. A casual dinner party with friends, maybe. At someone's home, maybe. But not at a nice restaurant in Italy (or the U.S., for that matter).

This has gotten silly. I was not indignant about the sandals, but disappointed in and rather shocked at the assumptions and shots people were taking ... at someone they know not at all. Husband and I are SO not invested in the sandals, even though they indeed cost "hundreds of euros." Like I said, it was a yes or no question. Yes, you'll want to take a nice pair of full shoes. Done. But the answers were certainly more than that, and seemed to me to reflect negative and unkind prejudices and projections on the part of the writers. I did get a bit indignant about that.

<i><font color=#777777>" I was...disappointed in and rather shocked at the assumptions and shots people were taking...I did get a bit indignant about that."</font></i>

I hate to say this but, dahling, relax. You're going to Italy soon, during the most fabulous month of the year. Lighten up. A lot of people can't afford to go anywhere because they lost all their money and lost their jobs. They can't afford to dream about $400 sandals let alone wearing them in a nice restaurant in Rome or Tuscany. You're fortunate you get to go and ponder these silly packing questions.

Fodorites like to have fun. They mean you no real harm. They deal with clothing questions day in day out and, frankly, everyone says the same thing. They've been saying the same thing for years. If we didn't have fun with it, we'd all leave the board and do something more fun, or shoot ourselves.

So throw away any indignation and/or negative thoughts or feelings, and be sure your luggage is light enough to deal with the new hassles of travel. You and the bare-naked-toe gladiator have a lovely trip.

PS We neglected to ask, will the gladiator be getting a mani-pedi before you all leave? (Kidding, again.)

Arizonaa, you’ve just witnessed some typical Fodor’s behaviour. The standard script runs like this:

I’m thinking of a holiday at pick-a-place. Is hotel XXX any good? Can I get a bus from the airport? What sort of food do they eat there?

Yep, you can get a bus.

The national dish of pick-a-place is deep fried albatross.

The bus runs every ten minutes.

It’s not deep fried albatross, it’s baked albatross, with traditional herbs.

The bus is way below my price point. I use the helicopter transfer. And I’d not be seen dead at pick-a-place anyway.

Albatross tasted like chicken to me, or maybe it was polenta.

I found that the people on the helicopter were all wearing Crocs. The Hummer limo was better for me.

I ordered the albatross, and I think they served seagull

Limo-schimo. I use the private helicopter. Roberto drives it.

That was not seagull, they only serve juvenile albatross. If you can’t tell the difference, then you should stick to polenta.

I’ve given up on the helicopter – I maintain a steam launch and crew to transport me to my hotel.


I like Hotel XXX – good staff.

I found a hair in the bathtub at Hotel XXX. Complained, negotiations continuing.

There’s no way that poster Z maintains a steam launch. Pick-a-place is in a desert.

I found a dead body in the bathtub at Hotel YYY. It’s with my lawyers – hotel would not change my room, so I could not take a bath. Had to use the shower stall.

Pick-a-place might be in a desert, but before I arrive they flood the irrigation canals, to float my boat.

I found a dead elephant in the jacuzzi when I rented the penthouse at pick-a-place. Issue is with the United Nations

I’d never take a vacation at pick-a-place.

I’d never take a vacation anywhere.

I take vacations fifty five weeks a year.

I get paid to take vacations.

Getting paid to take vacations is so tacky – I take vacations for free.

I donate my vacations to the poor people of Colombia.

There are no poor people in Colombia – they are all drug barons.

Christopher Colombia discovered America.

No he didn’t, it was the Vikings/Chinese/Indonesians/Bill Gates

.........and so it goes.

I'm sorry arizonaa that your simple question was turned by a few into such an ugly free for all.

It appears that some Fodorites used your post to grind their own personal axe. You just happened to provide a convenient vehicle.

I'm fairly new here and have had my questions answered very civilly, thoughtfully and generously. I'm going to be asking lots more, and my expectation is that many wonderful members will contribute if they can.

BTW, my husband will be bringing his very utilitarian Ecco shoes, as will I, for maximum comfort. too, too, funny :)

Peter

HATS OFF!

Markland, I wrote a trip report for Venice in similar vein. Click on my name and you'll find it.

markland, if you think this was an "ugly free for all,"you're definitely a newbie and don't understand the personalities involved. Give it time and you will.

Peter! Ah-h-ha-ha-ha-ha!! Dude, you put the cherry on top of a hot fudge thread.

Peter - I've bookmarked your report. An engineer who makes me laugh - what's not to love!

St.Cirq - Looking forward to joining another disfunctional family :)

Peter!!! * claps *

(Arizonaa....it's sad to see how low the level of discourse has fallen in Fodors. It *used* to be a fun, informative, congenial, and sometimes witty place to get info about wherever it is that you're going. Now it's sounding like a chat room.

BTW...just tell MrAZ to include a nice pair of loafers...and have a wonderful time. Italy is a joy.)

I've enjoyed this discourse so much that I think I'll add a Californian's perspective: I've traveled quite a bit as well over the past 30+ years, and I can't recall anyone at a restaurant ever spending any time inspecting my feet. I used to bring a pair of nicer loafers, but I've mostly given up on that in the past 10 years, and worn walking shoes if, in fact, I've been out walking all day. In less expensive places the locals aren't especially fashionable themselves, and in more expensive places other customers are either engaged in conversation or eating, and the restaurant staff are generally just glad that I can afford to eat there. Now, I haven't been back to Italy in the past few years, but I find it hard to imagine that everyone is so much MORE fashion conscious than they were the last few times I was there. Or that they will embarass themselves and me with fits of laughter because of my shoes.

I think some of my fellow Americans are far too self-conscious and self-deprecatory when they travel. Seriously, when's the last time anyone here had their appetite threatened when a European traveler entered an American restuarant and was dressed differently? Or took such offense that they lost sleep that night? Of course, some of the posters here do seem just a tad sensitive....

So my vote is for the sandals, unless our Arizona friend plans on putting his feet up on the table -- then I'd say a nice pair of Gucci loafers.

>This has gotten silly.<

No, coming here and asking complete strangers how your ADULT husband should dress is silly.

Please don't take an attitude with me, Miss Thing. It it is extremely rude of you to come here and throw shade on posters who have been handing out travel advice for 10+ years.

You should be thrilled that posters like St. Cirq or Snobby even acknowledged your thread.

Thin

I think heels would help set him apart. Depending on how tall he is, open toed sandals with 3" up to 6" heels. Stunning.

<i>Depending on how tall he is, open toed sandals with 3" up to 6" heels. Stunning.</i>

At least then the wearer would be up front about that fact that sandals are... NOT. A. MAN'S. SHOE.

I live in Florida where wearing sandals is an everyday occurrence for men and women. Worn to the beach, to a casual restaurant, shopping...doesn't matter in Central and South Florida.
It's very hot here and we live near Orlando, tourism capital of Florida! Native Floridians wear them as well as Italian, German, French, Spanish...you name the country..tourists! Never once have I heard anyone disparage or condemn anyone for wearing sandals.
It's my hope that when we visit other countries as tourists, that the natives would not disparage or condemn us either.

While you're thinking about your clothes and how to act, make sure the Italians don't serve you stale bread or try to pass off tap water as bottled water (always order "with gas") at 7 Euro a bottle.

Their most famous trick...padding the bill. The restaurant experience in the major cities of Italy isn't what it used to be, and it's getting worse.

Or picking up a gold ring in front of your feet.

<i>It's my hope that when we visit other countries as tourists, that the natives would not disparage or condemn us either.</i>

That's not really the point. It's not like you are going to be tossed out of a restaurant. When people ask "can I" they aren't really asking whether they will be tossed out on the street, but whether it is custom.

How one dresses for Orlando is not how one dresses for NYC. It's not the custom. Sure it can be done and people aren't going to faint on the sidewalks, but it isn't the custom in NYC or Rome to dress like you would in the backyard or at a restaurant in Orlando.

That's what people are asking. So you can wear your fannypack and Hawaiian shirt and flip-flops all over Europe and people aren't going to shout at you, but that doesn't mean it is the "custom" or that you won't stick out like a sort thumb.

"How one dresses for Orlando is not how one dresses for NYC. It's not the custom. Sure it can be done and people aren't going to faint on the sidewalks, but it isn't the custom in NYC or Rome to dress like you would in the backyard or at a restaurant in Orlando."

I agree. We live on the coast near Orlando and this area cannot be compared with Rome (or NYC) except for the fact that both attract a multitude of tourists.

However, even though it is 90 degrees here already, we don't wear shorts to nice restaurants nor does my husband wear sandals when we go out for dinner. Others choose to dress very casually no matter the venue.

When we travel, we choose attire in keeping with the city or country we are visiting. Shorts are not on the packing list when we are traveling to cities like Rome or Paris, no matter what the temps or what other tourists deem to be acceptable attire.

It is more about the individual IMO and how we each choose to present ourselves, both in our day to day lives and when we travel.

You sure don't find da kine question on the Hawaii board. I'll bet arizonaa must be wishing she made plans to go there instead.

Kfusto, I agree with you that shorts and sandals to nice restaurants are not a good idea. As I mentioned previously, I don't see a problem wearing them to a casual restaurant.

And of course, one should always try to dress appropriately and according to the customs to the country where one is visiting. However, there is no way that a tourist can ever pretend to be something other than a tourist. Cameras and maps are a dead giveaway. And when walking for miles on end in another country, enjoying the beauty and history of said country, foot comfort should be a priority. Comfort sandals for sight seeing and nicer shoes for nicer venues.

"However, there is no way that a tourist can ever pretend to be something other than a tourist. "

I did not suggest that a tourist pretend to be anything other than what they are as there is certainly no shame in being a tourist in another country. However, I have seen many tourists who dress quite inappropriately for the cities/towns they visit and simply being a tourist does not make it acceptable to do so. And of course comfort is a priority when one is walking miles a day however appropriateness and comfort are not mutually exclusive.

It is especially offensive to me when tourists who choose to dress as if they are headed to the beach and then are denied entrance to venues like St. Peter's Basilica become rude, loud and argumentative with the guards, making it anyone's responsibility but their own that they are not allowed to enter. It is all about them dressing exactly as they want to on their vacation after all.

I can't even begin to imagine the "show" those type of tourists are putting on! I'll be heading to Rome this August and I've been researching everything I can to make sure that I am not one of those "ugly" foreign tourists!

Although I've been overseas quite a few times, I've never seen such behavior. But then again, maybe my eyes have been trained on the beauty of the location and not on the dress or behavior of those around me!

How about a 72 year old friend of a friend who met us one day wearing short shorts to a planned dinner in a nice restaurant in Perugia. She is from London and said she wears what she wants when she is on holiday. I suggested we find another casual restaurant that evening. I think she was wearing sneakers but I didn't look that far down her legs to check.

"But then again, maybe my eyes have been trained on the beauty of the location and not on the dress or behavior of those around me!"

Unfortunately, it is often hard to miss. :(

Look, keep in mind that people will treat you according to how your dressed. That goes for any country in Europe or any state in the US.

If you're over 30, it's time to look like a grown up. Who cares what a waiter thinks of you. What do you think of you?

I was looking at vacation pics of some friends, the husband was in all the shots with this guy in a crew neck T and ball cap. Finally, I said, "who's that guy? I didn't know you took someone with you." Turns out it was the wife. She looks great at home and on vacation she wore this?

This is a time when lots of pictures will be taken, isn't it better to look your best? My friends took pictures of themselves in front of everything. I couldn't even see the landscape behind them because there was the stupid baseball cap.