Beef Bourguignon
 

Would Love your imput on this famous french dish. I don't eat much meat but years ago I had this dish while on tour with students and I have been dreaming of it since.

Thanks in advance for your info.

Theresa in Detroit.

The first thing about it is that you may be surprised eating it in France. I've eaten (and made) a lot of beef bourguignon and it is normally small sort of bite sized pieces of beef "stewed" in burgundy wine, often with bits of bacon, onions, and mushrooms. In France more often that not, I've had it served as one big hunk of beef, not cut into bite sized pieces.

I love Mark Bittman's recipe in The Best Recipes in the World.

Lee Ann

Julia Child's recipe is my favorite.

And yes, I've had either one large piece of beef or a few large ones every time I've had it in France. No bite-size morsels.

OK don't laugh but I made a version of it last week using a can of mushroom soup and some good red wine. I also added a little black forest ham. It was exquis! Just brown the pieces of meat in a little fat(butter, or oil or even pam). Then add your mirepoix(onions, carrots and a little celery) Add the can of creme of mushroom soup and an equal portion or more of any good red wine that you have. I add a bayleaf, some herbes de provence and salt and pepper. I used a pinch of allspice. Oh, yes the ham I added when I sauteed the vegetables. Cook this for at least 2 hours.

I will be in Paris in March. I should have said that in the first post. I want to find a restaurant that serves some good Beef bourguignon. Any recommendations?
The dish I had there in Paris was a hunk of meat not small pieces and it was served with the most fab mashed potatoes ever on the side. I about liked the plate. The potatoes came in this little silver pot with handles.

Thanks again.

Go to Dijon or Beaune if you want the real item. It is one of the best dishes in the world.

Second day have coc au vin. They don't make it like that anywhere else. The chickens are the size of turkeys.

IMO, these foods travel about as well as Irish bars. I.e., they don't.

Yes, definitely do have coq au vin. The reason the chickens are so huge is that they are much older males (capon). If it is made with normal chicken it technically cannot be called coq au vin.

I'm very curious about that last statement. A capon is an "emasculated" male chicken, so it technically is NOT a coq or cockerel. They are indeed large, but very tender for roasting. But I've never heard of them being used for coq au vin, which is stewed "rooster" -- not capon. It would seem counterproductive to raise a capon for tender meat, then stew it to death in wine -- a process used to tenderize otherwise tough old male birds. At least, that's the way I always understood it. No?

Agree with NeoP. Traditional coq au vin is not made with capon...or chicken. It would be counterproductive to raise a capon and then stew it to death.

And though I'm sure it was a very tasty dish, I'm really having a hard time with the boeuf bourgignon made with a can of mushroom soup. I think that dish needs to be renamed - it's good, I'm sure, but boeuf bourgnignon it ain't.

Oh, Ina Garten's boeuf bourgignon recipe is the one I've finally settled on. A pain to make, expensive but oh-so-good.

That probably doesn't help you, mamaw. I can't recall having boeuf bourgignon in France. Sorry. Have a fun trip!

Just looked it up in one of my culinary textbooks which states, "In traditional stock farming, cocks which were good breeders were kept as long as they could fulfil their function. They would be several years old before they were killed and therefore needed long and slow braising as coq au vin. Nowadays coq au vin is sometimes made with a chicken or hen." Larousse Gastronomique.

Sorry - in my last post I meant rooster, not capon. I had capon on my brain for another entirely different dish! I've been doing some capon research.

Agree that Ina Garten's recipe is a good one. I saw that episode, too. I just instinctively shy away from her recipes because she looks to me, though a really lovely person, like someone who's gained about a thousand pounds since becoming a cook and I have this thing about eating well but staying tiny. I guess I should compare her and Julia's recipes and see which one is actually more fattening. Or just trust my instincts: I mean how hard is chunks of beef, pearl onions, garlic, a bottle of wine, a bunch of mushrooms, broth, herbs...?it's not rocket science...

I personally have never been served boeuf bourguignon as one large chunk of beef in France. Whenever you order it as a plat du jour in a brasserie or a basic restaurant, it is served in bite sized pieces.

I've often served Boeuf Bourguignon for my annual Christmas party since it's a great buffet dish. Here's the recipe I use which always gets raves. It's from Craig Claiborne:

BOEUF BOURGUIGNONNE (serves 10-12)
5 lbs chuck beef, cut into large cubes
Flour
1/4 cup olive oil
Salt & pepper to taste
1/4 cup cognac, warmed
1/2 lb bacon, diced
3 garlic cloves, coarsely chopped
2 carrots, coarsely chopped
2 leeks, coarsely chopped
3 cups coarsely chopped onions
2 TBL chopped parsley
1 bay leaf
1 tsp thyme
1 bottle Burgundy (I've also used Bordeaux)
5 TBL butter
36 whole small onions
Dash of sugar
36 mushroom caps
Juice of 1/2 lemon

Roll the beef cubes in flour & brown on all sides in a skillet over high heat in the olive oil.
Sprinkle the meat with salt & pepper, pour the cognac over it & ignite. When the flame dies, transfer meat to a 3 qt casserole.

Add a little water to the skillet & deglaze over high heat, scraping up the brown partickles clinging to the pan. Pour over the meat.
Preheat oven to 350°. To the skillet add the bacon, garlic, carrots, leeks, chopped onions & parsley. Cook, stirring, until the bacon is crisp & the vegetables are light brown. Transfer to the casserole with the meat & add the bay leaf, thyme, Burgundy & enough water to barely cover the meat. Cover & bake 1 1/2 hours.

Prepare a beurre manie by blending 1 TBL each butter & flour & stir into the casserole bit by bit. Return the casserole to the oven & continue cooking 2-3 hours longer.
Brown the small onions in 2 TBL butter with a dash of sugar. Add a little water, cover & cook until the onions are almost tender.
Saute the mushrooms in 2 TBL of the butter until light brown on 1 side. Sprinkle with lemon juice & turn to brown the other side.

To serve, add the onions to the casserole & garnish w/the mushrooms & additional chopped parsley.~~ (I serve over egg noodles.)~~Craig Claiborne

I glanced at the recipe given by Carrybean. It looks like more work than I would care to do in the kitchen!

There are two things about many recipes that I think are not good ideas: the beef and the wine!

First, echoing the coq au vin discussion above, the meat used should be the sort that might be unpalatable without long slow cooking. I use large lumps of shin beef and cook them until they are starting to come apart. If I use other cuts, then I call it beef in red wine.

Second, I don't give a fig what wine I use so long as it is an okay red. I use whatever table wine is convenient, usually from the cubi that is open.

The other secret to cooking with wine is to reduce it first--to concentrate the flavor and to drive off the raw alcohol flavor. It makes a huge difference in braises. And Tyler Florence fixed boeuf bourgignon on a show and served the beef in largish chunks rather than more like a stew. It is a MUCH more attractive serving, and cooks so much better. Use a nice chuck. And PLEASE, no canned soup.
When doing a braise, place a piece of parchment paper over the liquid before putting the lid on the cooking oven.

Author: kerouac
Date: 01/08/2008, 01:15 am

I personally have never been served boeuf bourguignon as one large chunk of beef in France. Whenever you order it as a plat du jour in a brasserie or a basic restaurant, it is served in bite sized pieces.
>>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>

You should expand your horizons. I would certainly call Aux Charpentiers on Rue Mabillion, a typical French "basic" restaurant, where I don't believe it is on the regular menu but my partner has had it as a plat du jour -- and as my journal recalls it was one HUGE hunk of beef. I'd also call Au Pied du Cochon a typical brasserie -- in fact one of the oldest and most famous. They serve their boeuf bourgignon in one (or possibly two) big chunks. And I've had it probably a dozen times in actual Burgundy towns -- where I assume the dish is even more authentic -- and it has ALWAYS been served as one or two large hunks of meat.

It's fine that you haven't encountered it that way, but it is not unusual to find it served that way, and it clearly is the CLASSIC FRENCH way of serving it. Even my Larousse Gastronomique describes it that way. Now go ahead, Kerouac, and give us your usual statement that the rest of us have only eaten in touristy restaurants.

I wouldn't dream of doing so, because it is actually the sort of thing that most residents would never order in a restaurant, so you visitors are the experts. We other people make it and eat it at home -- it is more common to order a difficult dish in a restaurant (I'm not talking about a quick bite for lunch).

However, I would suggest that you go to <b>any</b> supermarket in France and look in the meat department to see the presentation of the product called &quot;boeuf pour bourguignon.&quot; I guess a lot of people have to stick all of those pieces back together if they want the &quot;full&quot; version.

I would assume that restaurants that serve a big piece of meat do it for 2 reasons:

1. <i>because they can</i> -- A restaurant doesn't mind stewing meat for 10 or 12 hours. At home we have better things to do, which is why it is stewed in smaller pieces.
2. <i>because the small pieces would fall apart in a big restaurant</i> -- that's assuming they have a large quantity of it in a big pot all day long to handle the orders as they come in. The last customers would just get a plateful of mush.

Restaurants love to served stewed items in any case -- so much less work!

Mawmaw - I had the most delicious Beef Bourguignon at L'Oree Du Marais, 29 Rue Francs Bourgeois,75004.
It's a small place with only two or three tables outside.
My beef was tender and in a lovely thick wine sauce accompanied by tagliatelle, 13.50Euros With my meal I had a 14cl Muscadet, 3.50euro and finished off with an espresso at 2.50euros.
This was at lunchtime.

ROTFLMAO.

Yes, we can always count on you to try to make it a &quot;put down&quot; of tourists or Americans. I was trying to guess exactly how you would manage to do that this time. Good for you, Kerouac.

Yes, I think we were talking about ordering in a restaurant, not making it for home, so trying to discuss how someone would prepare it easily at home instead of presenting it the classic way in a restaurant really doesn't mean much. But you've really thrown a curve at me here. You yourself were talking about &quot;basic&quot; French restaurants and brasseries. I always thought those were mostly for the simple &quot;classic&quot; dishes, not the &quot;difficult&quot; ones you now seem to have switched your attention to. So are you now saying most French wouldn't dream of ordering &quot;simple meals&quot; in a brasserie or basic French restaurant? I think you're totally wrong, sorry.

And if you are trying to shame us tacky Americans about ordering something so &quot;touristy&quot; as boeuf bourgignon in a restaurant in France -- it isn't going to work. There is NO shame in ordering the most classic and traditional dishes of a country when one is visiting. And despite what you try to make us think, we should NOT be ashamed that we are visiting. And guess what. We won't even make fun of YOU if YOU come to the US and order a steak or a hamburger and maybe apple pie in one of our restaurants.

I'm no expert on the dish so I just googled &quot;BOEUF BOURGUIGNON&quot; in the photo section and just about every picture was different but mostly just normal stew - far too many carrots on certain pictures.

Thanks for all the great posts. I'm drooling thinking of eating stew and slopping it up american style with a piece of french bread. Sorry, I'm just an american tourist and not ashamed to try the local cuisine and ask all the silly questions about it.

And since I own a restaurant I can likely make it right there as well, BUT, I want to eat it in France. Their way. I will also be in Brittney as well as Paris so I plan on looking for this dish everywhere we eat. I have no problem ordering 2-3 dishes to try. And I can eat like a champ, especially when I have been walking all day.

Patrick, I always read your posts and I am amazed at your way with words. I envy your style. But what does ROTFLMAO mean?

tod, thanks for the address to the restaurant where you ejnoyed the BB, mmmmmmm, I can't wait.

Patrick is laughing his ass off because he hasn't taken his medication today. Therefore, the typical paranoid reaction and his reading things into my statement that I never said. But not to worry -- he is harmless.

He even thinks that Au Pied de Cochon is a typical brasserie. Parisians consider it to be one of the top restaurants in Paris (not the gourmet guides, of course).

As a tribute to you, Patrick, I copied and pasted your messages to the Thorn Tree Refuge site -- they will absolutely love it there.

It is a real tribute to you, and I am not joking. Irascibility is cherished there.

We just made the Barefoot Contessa's Beef Bourguignon recipe (Barefoot In Paris Cookbook) a couple of weeks ago and it was excellent. It also takes about 1/2 the time as other Beef Bourguignon recipes (I believe a friend of ours says the recipe is on-line).

On another note, I had a great Beef Bourguignon at Chez Fernand in Paris last year, and the pieces of beef were bite-sized (at least after a couple of glasses of champagne they seemed bite-sized).

((H))

Just a couple websites that list Pied au Cochon as a &quot;BRASSERIE&quot; -- most of them calling it &quot;one of the top brasseries in Paris:

http://www.paris-restaurants.net/bra...s-in-paris.htm
www.shuttle-paris.com/paris-brasseries.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/200...anddrink.paris
www.come-to-paris.com/menusbrasseries.html

Meanwhile have you ever heard of Fodors? Their review of Pied au Cochon starts with &quot;One of the few remnants of this neighborhood's raucous all-night past -- Les Halles was the city's wholesale market until the late 1960s -- this &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;brasserie&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;& lt; founded in 1946 still draws both a French and foreign crowd.&quot;

So I guess I'm in pretty good company. But nevertheless --even if you insist it is a restaurant and not a brasserie, what does that have to do with anything? I think you're splitting hairs now -- and you do it so well. Does it make a difference to our discussion as to whether YOU and YOUR friends call it a brasserie or a restaurant?

And yes, Mamaw, ROTFLMAO stands for &quot;rolling on the floor laughing my ass off&quot;.

Meanwhile, what is &quot;irascible&quot; or angry about my posts? One who is angry hardly doubles over with laughter at the silly pretentiousness of people trying to prove one wrong about tiny and unimportant details. Or does &quot;irascibility&quot; have a different meaning in French?

NeoPatrick,
I have enjoyed boeuf bourguignon many, many times in restaurants in Paris. Each time the beef was served in bite sized pieces. I never have had the misfortune of gazing at a &quot;hunk&quot; of beef. Merci le Dieu.

What puzzles me, NeoPatrick, is your hostility and anger towards Kerouac. I do not feel that he tries to prove us wrong about small details, or is trying to &quot;shame us tacky Americans&quot;. Or, in your immortal words &lt;&lt; Yes, we can always count on you (Kerouac) to try to make it a &quot;put down&quot; of tourists or Americans.&gt;&gt;

Kerouac has lived in Paris for 35 years and appears to enjoy, in his fashion, contributing to Fodor's. We appreciate this. He is , after all, French. I welcome the input of a person who is French, especially if I am travelling to France! This has often joyously enhanced my experiences in the past.
The question is, why do you, NeoPatrick, resent it?

And so, NeoPatrick...I have read and appreciated your many posts. I do not understand your attempts to diminish Kerouac's writings. They are often quite wonderful and we all enjoy them.

maitaitom - my favorite is barefoot contessa's recipe as well, although I didn't realize it only takes half the time! LOL.
It takes us about an hour to assemble and then we use a slow cooker. Love that recipe.
MUST use a good Burgundy, hopefully the same type you will drink with the meal.

Neo - interesting you mention the big chunks! We have had BB many times in France, mostly in the Burgundy region. For what it is worth it always was served in one large piece (chunk). A couple of times the meat was beef cheeks.

We remarked about this in fact you can find my notes and pictures in my Burgundy food reviews.

I do not feel I am trying to diminish Kerouac's writings, EXCEPT when he wants to completely challenge what people say about their own experiences. Here were a number of people mentioning that boeuf bourguignon is sometimes in big hunks instead of bite sized pieces. Robjame who has often given great details of their Parisian eating adventures mentions in once again in just the last post before this one. No one was making a big deal out of it, myself included, but I have seen it that way several times and obviously many others have as well. He mentioned that he's never been served it that way -- fine -- but apparently with the implied meaning that since he's THERE, then he knows (surprisingly he didn't add those specific words this time, but he often does -- things like &quot;who would know, a tourist or a person who lives here?&quot;. Although, ironically just a few posts later he tells us that he and others in France rarely if ever would even order it in a restaurant, so DUH, why would he be served it that way when he doesn't even order it? And THEN he says that since most French would never order it in a restaurant, we visitors are the experts. Fine. That's why WE VISITORS were talking about OUR experiences. What was the point in refuting the idea to begin with and then go on and on in more and more detail discussing home preparation and how the meat markets market it? Was all of that aimed at trying to prove that the rest of us are liars, because it really couldn't be served that way? It seems an awful lot of effort just to try to say &quot;you crazy tourists are wrong -- that's NOT the way it would be served&quot;, especially since if often clearly IS.

I'm all for Kerouac's many posts and the much great information that he gives particularly about Paris and France in general, but I must say I do get tired of how he frequently manages to put in a knife and twist it one way or another about ANYTHING that any American tourist says. His put downs of American tourists and Americans in general really do get old. This was just another good example, and one he doesn't want to give up on. Did anyone notice that he didn't merely say HE'D never been served it that way, he had to turn it to imply that only tourists would order such a dish anyway -- one of his usual digs at tourists and/or Amerericans in general. I mean really, does he honestly expect us to believe there aren't thousands and thousands of French people who have ordered boeuf bourgignon in restaurants? These digs are in many, many of his posts.

Even when I casually mention I've been served it that way in a famous brasserie (as it's listed in dozens of websites, even Fodor's own recommendations), he feels it necessary to say about me &quot;He even thinks that Au Pied de Cochon is a typical brasserie. Parisians consider it to be one of the top restaurants in Paris (not the gourmet guides, of course).&quot; See what I mean? Who even cares whether most would consider it a brasserie or a restaurant -- which has no effect on the entire discussion at hand? There's only one reason he brought that up -- to try to discredit me! But oddly enough at the same time he is apparently discrediting practically every website list of Parisian brasseries and our &quot;parents&quot;, Fodors themselves. I'm not the one (or certainly not the ONLY one) who is refuting everything he says, but the other way around. Read back through all the posts here and I think you'll see what I mean.

Oh, and just for the record, there is NO hostility and NO anger for Kerouac. Just because I point out the foolishness of someone's attempts at put-downs certainly doesn't mean I'm angry. In fact, they kind of amuse me. That's hardly anger.

Your problem, Patrick, is that you see imaginary put downs.

Not to worry. As for the 'brasserie' word, it is abused in France just as the 'bistro' word is abused in the English speaking world. Just because restaurants put either word in their name does not make them the real item.

I am French. I have never heard of boeuf bourguignon being served in bit chunks. I do understand (I hope) what Kerouac means when he says that no French would not order it in a restaurant (I wouldn't either).
If you go to a restaurant to &quot;enjoy&quot; food, you tend to order something that you can't make at home or something special. Boeuf bourguignon is considered everyday food, there is nothing fancy about it and it is often made with low cuts of meat. It does not convey the image of a sophisticated dish.
:-))

This is different (at least in French minds) from feeding yourself which is what we all do when we are working and have little time.

And yes, you are more likely to find boeuf bourguignon on the menu of brasseries, auberges, small joints (and in Burgundy) than in a fancy Paris restaurant.

I'm reminded of a recent Super Bowl party at which the hostess served a wonderful version of Beef Bourguignon, which she learned while living in Paris. This was a truly &quot;civilized&quot; way to watch the Super Bowl!

Better than nachos! Oh damn, now I'm going to discover that NP is the nacho king of Florida! ;)

Can we now move on to discussing the one correct recipe for Irish Stew?

You mean bourguignon without the wine???

Cultural spin? Restaurants often supply 'exotic' names to simple local dishes. Beef B is simply beef stew. It was originally conceived by housewives (around the world) to use up poor cuts of meat or leftover trimmings. The meat pieces are small because they come from scraps or are cut from inedible meat pieces. Chances are that the sauce is the main flavor/feature of the dish. I knew a restaurant in Wausau, Wisconsin that served the best Beef B or beef stew ever on Mondays. It was made using the trimmings from the weekend T-bones, sirloins and porterhouses! Whatever you call it, eat it and enjoy.

I'm just confused about why Craig Clairborne thought boeuf was a feminine noun. Who ever heard of Boeuf Bourgignonne? Or is that another dish entirely?