GS - Of course if you are French
Beef bourguignon is not an exotic name - kind of meat and where it is a specialty.

StCirq - or heard of a female steer?

Now I know what I am making for dinner. I am getting hungry just reading this thread.

The times I have ordered boeuf bourgignon in Burgandy and Paris it's alway been big chunks of beef with the bone! Always more delicious cooked on the bone. Regarding the Pied au Cochon, great place to have real French onion soup after the movies on cold winter nights. Not gastonomique as a place, but convivial and quick service.

A silly little discussion but interesting! and about my favorite topic...food.

Most recipes seem to call for chunks 2" x 2".
is that chunks or pieces?

What is sold in supermarkets is often scraps, packaged to sell.

"boeuf pour bourguignon" in supermarkets is often bought for fondue bourguignon

I erred above... our favorite recipe, and we love this one, is from Epicurious
http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/104754

That epicurious recipe is pretty good but I like to tweak it a bit (like I'm sure most people do, anyway). Very easy and tasty. It is a great comfort homey dish.

The size of the chunks obviously varies, but they do generally shrink while cooking. Naturally, anybody making the dish himself will choose whatever size he finds most appealing (ha ha - now I'll have the women on my back for the gender used!).

Beef touching any large bone is now generally forbidden in France, ever since mad cow disease. T-bone steaks are still banned as far as I know (since the two major steakhouse chains - Buffalo Grill and Hippopotamus - still haven't returned it to their menus although it was the most popular item, I suppose that confirms that it is still banned). However, I have seen marrow bones for sale at the supermarket, so there is still hope.

<< but they do generally shrink while cooking.>>

K - I am afraid your expertise in the kitchen is going to be called into question. LOL I remeber this one from culinary school...

What causes meat to shrink is loss of moisture. It happens over 120 degrees F. when the longitudinal protein bundles begin to coagulate and give off moisture. In a stew, this moisture is replaced with the liquid (wine in this case). That is what makes stews so tasty. (and no "shrinkage" to use a Seinfeld term)
(Sorry I couldn't resist).

As to meat on the bone... I never knew! What an interesting piece of information. I guess this is since France cannot prevent importation of other EU beef.
I did notice that almost every restaurant in France now describes the origin of the beef that they are serving.

I always use beef with a lot of fat (I prefer it), so obviously it shrinks when cooking -- meat with no fat will not shrink, of course.

rob, did you go to culinary school? Were you classically trained? I went in Canada but have taken classes in Europe.

I think the reason why the origins of the beef need to be on the menus is a ban on US meats, and I think Australian beef was banned in 1992 for export to France. At one stage UK beef too because of the mad-cow out break. This was because of the hormonally fed animals and high doeses of antibiotics injected into them. As far as I know this is illegal in France, as well as genetically modified foods.

Also a market butcher told me that it's illegal to infra-red the meat (to age it quicker (about 2 days), as done in the US). Proper aged beef is done in cellars up to 28 days.

Though there may be some people who can throw more light on the subject, but this is perhaps another topic! Any butchers out there?

""boeuf pour bourguignon" in supermarkets is often bought for fondue bourguignon"


Oh dear, no ! it would be inedible for fondue bourguignonne. The best cut for fondue bourguignonne is called "poire", very tender and pretty expensive.

"Beef touching any large bone is now generally forbidden in France, ever since mad cow disease. T-bone steaks are still banned as far as I know".

Not any more.

Infra-red aging is indeed forbidden. So are tenderizers.

Restaurants describe the origin of the meat on the menu for marketing purposes. Customers feel safer.. :-)

http://www.iht.com/articles/1999/04/23/beef.2.t_1.php

Sorry I got the date wrong, the ban on chemically enhanced US meat was imposed in 1989 not 1992.

As I enjoy reading the International Herald Tribune, I found this article. So far the ban has not been lifted, but you're right, Pvoyageuse, it does assure the customers when the menus mention where the food is from.

Even McDonalds advertise their meat is French produced!

Can we all just get along here?

I have taken into account all the reciepe's here for BB. And I have researched it in all the cooking books I have and all over the internet. And I tried to find the BFC show where she makes the BB but can't find it. I did find her version.

I'm putting BB on our Friday night menu next week. We only open for dinner during lent. And I know lent hasn't started, but my customer's are driving me nutts to start early this year. We do fish and other seafood stuff, but no everyone does the fish thing. So because of this thread I'm going to take the jump and try to make it. Wish Me luck. I will keep researching what type of beef I should use.

Thanks for all the great stuff here on this post. It really brought the whole post to life. I couldn't wait to get out of work to check what other stuff people had posted.

"I will keep researching what type of beef I should use."

You won't do better than a well marbled piece of chuck. Think same as for pot roast or other slow braised cuts of meat. You can decide the size of the chunks to cut it into. Certainly most patrons would expect to find it in smaller bite sized pieces.

NP is 100% correct - chuck is the best in a braising situation. It's cheaper if you purchase the chunk yourself and then cut it up. I never purchase the meat that is cut up already.

Do you care for a really tasty boef bourguignon?

I requires some care, but the result is very rewarding.

It is cooked on the stovetop, not in the oven and it requires 3 to 4 bottles of wine, not just one.

It goes like this: Brown meat and bacon in olive oil in a skillet (I prefer large, portion-sized chunks, although the traditional way is small cubes). Then add a small amount of red wine (one or two glasses). Leave the skillet uncovered and cook on medium-high heat. Add onions.

When the wine evaporates, the crucial moment occurs when the meat gets really tasty. Just before it starts to burn, add more wine. Repeat procedure several times (yes, it requires some attention).

After two hours or so, meat should start to become tender (by then, you should have poured at least three bottles of wine). Then add vegetables, carrots first, later mushrooms. Sprinkle with flour. Add more wine, bay leaves and a bouquet garni. When the meat starts to fall apart, the dish is ready.

The meat will have an aubergine color, almost black, and will be very tasty.

You can cook any other meat á la bourguignonne (rooster, pigeon, quail etc.), but then of course in less time until meat is tender.

This recipe is also great to cook just onions. You will get aubergine-colored, wine-soaked onions which make a perfect side dish to Burgundy-style dishes.

traveller, the only problem with your recipe is that it would require 6 to 8 bottles of wine, not 3 to 4. If I'm going to be sitting there staring at the pan and waiting, every time I pour some wine in, I'd have to drink an equal amount.

NeoPatrick,

that's part of the fun. That's also the reason why you should the same wine for cooking and drinking.

I guess for this to be a peasant dish, you have to make this where cheap wine is readily available. I would hate to think of the cost of making this dish using 3-4 bottles of red wine, even cheap wine, from my local Canadian liquor store.

Some people say to use a good wine, but I don't agree -- after all you are cooking it. I don't think it really matters. I wouldn't be surprised if grape juice gave the same result (I should try it some time -- no, one of you other people should try it and report back here.).

That's like using the finest scotch for a 'whiskey and Coke'.

K - I hope you meant rye, not scotch!

Good wine does make a difference IMO. I have tried both and, maybe I was fooling myself, but there was a difference.
I ascribe to the French cooking methods of using the best and freshest ingredients possible.

t2l2 - I wish. I was poking fun at myself. I am a recipe follower, malhereusement.

I also think there is a difference in the wine you use. I've ruined recipes by using cheap wine. I've made some things with a half bottle of "left-over" good stuff from the night before and it made a world of difference from when I've done the same recipe with cheap stuff.
Don't get me wrong. I think the subtleties of a particularly good vintage would be lost when cooking, but the difference between different qualities of wine will show up in the results.

robjame wrote: "Good wine does make a difference"

I don't wholly agree. Bad wine makes a difference, and I wouldn't cook with a wine that I did not consider to be acceptable for drinking. But no way is any of my depleting stock of Pinot Noir going into a stew!

Let's not get too carried away on this: Boeuf Bourguignon is good hearty rustic food, not haute cuisine.

Okay, that means that we need to make two different boeuf bourguignon dishes -- one with good wine and one with ordinary wine -- and serve it to people who don't know to get their reaction.

I do know that just about anyone in France who serves kir (although the fad passed 10 years ago) uses cheap white wine and not good white wine to do it. Once you mix the wine with the cassis liqueur, the wine is dead.

Well, rob, you got me good. Guess I should be paying closer attention and stop skimming posts sometimes!

I think lots of chefs would agree that using a medium wine for most cooking preparations would be sufficient. I would not use my best, either, but would definitely only use wine I would drink myself.

Padraig, you are so right when you say that we're making too big of an issue over this. BB is what it is - no more, no less. Not at all gourmet but good, honest, down-home comfort food.

Today I was watching Passport to Europe with Samatha Brown and she ordered this dish that was in a cast iron pot with a big bone,and beef chucks/pieces with leeks and other vegetables. What is the name of that dish? It looks really good!

Some sort of daube de boeuf, I'd imagine.

Or it could just be a "pot au feu", which doesn't have wine it it. I don't usually think of a bone in the meat in daube, but I suppose it could, while the pot au feu is likely to be an actualy "joint" of beef and a bone is quite likely. Essentially it is beef and vegetables boiled together (traditionally over an open fire) in a pot with broth. I usually think daube of boeuf has some wine or at least a thickening in it, more like a stew. But of course all these dishes sort of overlap in style and presentation.

StCirq and Neo,

Thank you. I will try to do something like this soon. Calling Travel2live2, could you help?

I've cooked many versions, and the one I like the best was from Cook's Illustrated magazine (www.cooksillustrated.com). You need to subscribe to get the recipe, but it's worth it!

The contrary comments about this dish have been haunting me so I decided to look it up. Not to say that this is gospel but it IS interesting:


Beef Bourguignon is one of many examples of older recipes being slowly refined into haute cuisine.


Over time, the dish became a standard of French cuisine.


The recipe that most people still follow to make an authentic beouf bourguignon was first codified by Auguste Escoffier.

"my favorite is barefoot contessa's recipe as well..."

robjame, We had made a few Beef Bourguignon recipes in the past that didn't seem worth the time, but, yes, the barefoot Contessa's was remarkably good. I'm glad you like it, because I always enjoy your food reviews of places you have traveled and respect your food opinions.

By the way, only on Fodor's could there be a little hostility on a thread about Beef Bourguignon. That's entertainment!!!

((H))

Well, with a bone in, perhaps it's like a jarret de porc, only with beef? Is there such a thing as a jarret de boeuf?

I just dug out my 1936 edition of L'Art Culinaire Moderne by Henri-Paul Pellaprat and looked up Boeuf Bourguignon: Here's his recipe (and I do apologize because I cannot get my laptop to allow me to use English-International keyboard setting, and without it I can't do accents):

Employer le collier, les jumeaux, la joue, etc.... en un mot des parties prises dans la deuxieme categorie et coupes en des assez gros. Faire rissoler a la cocotte dans de la graisse chaude, quand la viande roussit, la poudrer avec une cuillere de farine pour 1 kg. de viande (8 personnes). Ajouter deux gousses d' ail hachees, laisser aussi roussir la farine, mouiller le boeuf avec miotie vin rouge et moitie eau de facon a la baigner. Saler,poivrer, ajouter un bouquet. Faire revenir a la graisse dans le poele 125 gr. de lardons maigres et 30 petits oignons que l'on ajoute au boeuf. Couvrir et cuire lentement 3 heures. Ajouter 200 gr. de champignons avec une cuillere de puree de tomates. Encore 10 minutes de cuisson. Degraisser et servir.

So, big chunks were in in the 30s:)

Ina G. just made it on her show a half hour ago & used beef tenderloin cut into fillets.

carrybean

ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I have been home all day. Watching the Food Network. My Husband called and wanted to go to the mall ( I hate the mall) with our grandbaby so she could run wild with the other children in the play area. So now I missed it. Oh well.

Was talking with a customer last night and He said when he ate BB in Avignon the meat was a big chunk. Oh well.

So you're saying somebody made beef bourgignon with filet of tenderloin? Have they committed this person yet? I assume this is some new version, cooked for a few minutes and lightly flavored with some wine? I can't imagine anyone stewing filet of tenderloin in wine for hours.

Yeah, no kidding. That must be The Hamptons version.

If you look at the Pellaprat version I posted, you're supposed to use the cheeks, the neck, all the stuff that's left over after the choice cuts are gone.

At Le select bistro in Toronto the BB is beef cheeks. (Chunk BTW)

If you are in TO, Le Select is an excellent place and worth a visit - the closest to Paris that I have found.