MelJ

This isn't a warning about thieves, per se, because there is nothing I'm aware of that we could have done to prevent this from happening. Rather, it's a cautionary tale about preparing before you go.

After over 20 years of traveling in Europe, we were scammed for the first time last month. After arriving in Venice, the hub and another guy with us both went to a bank ATM to withdraw (an outside ATM). No problems.

Neither needed more cash until we were in Paris well over a week later. The first day in Paris we tried to get cash with my husband's card and the message was along the lines of "card not valid." After trying a few different ATMs, we tried my card (same account, different number, different pin). Mine said, "no funds available."

I got on my iPad and checked our account and found that it had been cleaned out over the course of two days (the day after the Venice ATM use) in Washington, D.C. using several machines. We can only assume there was a scanner in the ATM in Venice.

Our friend hadn't been able to use his card, but just thought it was a glitch because he could use his wife's. At this point he checked and had apparently gotten an email from his bank that they flagged a $300 withdrawal in the States and cancelled his card. He was able to use his wife's card the rest of the trip. And the thieves were unable to take more.

I spent endless time on the phone with my bank's fraud department and here's what I learned:
1. Advising the bank you will be overseas doesn't insure it can't be used in the States, it just keeps you from getting flagged overseas.
2. We didn't provide an email address for reaching us. Had we done that, we would have known immediately since I work while away and checked email more than once a day. Instead, they called us at home, which was, of course, useless. They DID cancel the hub's card, but it was too late.
3. Even though the bank said they would replace the funds immediately, it took 3 more calls and five days. In the meantime, our daughter made a deposit for us and I was able to use my card for the rest of the trip.

A few things that haven't been cleared up: How they were able to make so many withdrawals in 48 hour period. We have a limit for removal. Why they didn't cancel the card after the first withdrawal, as our friend's bank did? (Our bank said that, although it was suspicious enough to call us, when we didn't call back they figured we were okay). DUH, WE WERE OUT OF THE COUNTRY HOW COULD WE ANSWER OUR HOME PHONE?

My lesson and tip for others:
Provide an email address if you plan to check emails daily. That way you can, MAYBE, save a few withdrawals from taking place.
Be aware that your branch bank can't help you, even if they want to. The most ours could do was make the funds our daughter put in our account immediately available, instead of holding the standard 24 hours.
If you are traveling with a spouse, make sure your ATM cards have different numbers and different pins.

Finally, you should know...
This was with our bank, which is multi-state (PNC). Our friend's bank was a local one. My experience with my bank may not be yours, but this should at least cause you to ask some questions about card use before you leave.
Also, this was an ATM-only card. No Visa logo, no online purchases allowed--in other words--not a debit card.
Yes, we use the credit card for as much as possible, but we needed the cash in Paris for our apartment balance. Because we didn't have it on time, we had to stay an extra night in the hotel and pay that night for both the hotel and the apartment.

Other than that, it was a wonderful trip and I'll try to get a trip report up.

xyz123

ATM scammers are an ongoing and old problem. Most likely they had rigged some sort of camera at the aTM that picked up the number on the debit or ATM card and your PIN. It is for this reason, I never use my primary account's debit caqrd for ATM withdrawals. I have a special internet bank where I transfer funds just before leaving and my own bank is always available to me (I pay nothing else out of the internet bank so if that is scammed, none of my outstanding checks turn to rubber or anything like that). So ineffect I have two accounts to withdraw from and have a back up.

I always cover with my hands the pin kehyboard so they can't see with the camera the pin number (unless they have cameras that can penatrate flesh and bone).

Fraud is gong to go on unfortunately no matter how careful you are (although again I suspect you didn't cover the key pad when punching in your pin unless they really rigged the ATM and have figured out how to read your key strokes).

BGTW when they drained your account, was it with purchases using the debit card in lieuy of a credit card? Remember such transactions do not need pins...the pin only protects ATM withdrawals. So another way to avoid problems is to keep as little as possible in the internet account and fund it via internet banking just before you're going to need to take out cash.

These are some precautions but the bottom line is these vermin are one step ahead of us and all the more a reaon for adoption of chip and pin for USA credit and debit cards (although this will stop pos fraud, internet fraud would still be a problem).....

Michael

Sorry to hear about your experience. The mistakes done by your bank (calling you and assuming that things were OK while you told them you were traveling) might indicate that this is not the best bank to patronize.

MelJ

xyz: We absolutely DO cover the keypad with our hands and we've had the same number for so long we don't even need to "peep" while punching them in. Also, I noted in the report that this was an ATM-only card. The bank thinks they had a scanner in the machine. This would also explain how they got our friend's information immediately after ours.

We will do as you suggested and put travel funds in a separate, small account next time and shift as needed.

Michael: About the bank? I agree. We're looking at how other banks handle travel notification right now. We've been with this bank (all iterations of it) for over 40 years.

One thing we'll def look for is an opportunity to have a chip.

Angela_m

Fortunately this has never happened to us but would it have helped to call the bank prior to departure to inform them you would be traveling and using your card out of the country? We always do this and leave them our cell phone # so they can contact us if needed. This may have avoided the problem of them calling your home.

xyz123

MelJ...I hope you realize I wasn't being accusatory just throwing out suggestions. I wish you well in getting this resolved as expediteously as possible.

MelJ

Angela, we always tell the bank. That's why I mentioned that it's wrong that they allow it to be used in the states even though we told them we'd be overseas. As I said, telling them only prevents you from getting flagged overseas.

Also always tell our credit card companies where we'll be.

xyz123

Angela.....while it is considered standard practice to call yur bank and I am not saying not to do it, from my experience it doesn't do any good one way or another. I've called and had the bank put a temporary hold on my credit cards, I've not called and charged a couple of thousand dollars worth and not a peep. Let's face it...the crooks are a step ahead of all of us no matter how much we follow and make all the precautions!

MelJ

Oh, gosh, xyz, not at all! I appreciate what you said (especially the "vermin" part!)

PeaceOut

Sorry for your misfortune, Mel. Thanks for the warning. When we leave next, I will make sure our bank has an email address to reach us. Good idea. I hope you get all your money back.

Mara

So sorry for your problem....I had an similar issue right here where I live in NYC - somehow my ATM card was scammed and I only use it at my bank's ATM's never anywhere else....I was lucky though the thief checked my balance and evidently there were several other transactions with stolen card numbers and the fraud dept. caught it before my money was taken....

It's a worse hassle, of course, when you are traveling....and my bank didn't even call or email -they sent me a letter that my card was closed out... ;-)

sundriedpachino

Good tip to leave your email address with your bank, thanks.

For a few years there, every card we had was frauded, but now we are all chip and pin and have had no further problems.

scatcat

So someone can just have your ATM card number and PIN and get cash? I am not familiar with these machines. You don't need the card itself to withdraw funds? Or, are they withdrawing out of your checking account straight from the bank using only the account number? I'm trying to figure a way that this doesn't happen to me. I travel solo and depend on my ATM cards.

MelJ

Thanks, all. Not sure if I made it clear, but the bank DID put the money back in--it just took five days and they call it a "loan" until they finish the investigation and make sure we aren't scamming them. When we got back there was a letter from the bank stating that they finished the investigation and considered it closed.

We were lucky our daughter had her son's college tuition money available Before you ask, I couldn't transfer in from our savings because that's in separate places, other than an old account with $38 in it

kybourbon

Does the bank have an explanation for allowing withdrawals over you limit?

My credit union has a low daily limit ($400) and won't raise it. It's one of the reasons they can keep fees low.

MelJ

Ky: The bank just said, "yes, that shouldn't have happened." We have a $500 limit and they won't raise it (well, they won't raise it for US, for scammers it's a matter of "help yourself."

xyz123

scatcat.....the scamming device reads the magnetic strip on the card and thery somehow compromised the pin number. Therefore the pieces of garbage have equipment, readilly available, to copy the information to a blank magnetic strip. Since they're using an atm machine they don't need to use any particular card. They insert the card in the ATM, enter the pin number and voila, they have your cash. This is the key weakness of the magnetic strips and the push for chip and pin where even if you steal the numbers on the card, the information is stored on the chip along with the pin and it is claimed it is impossible to counterfeit (although I am sure the criminals are at work or have already compromised to a degree the chip technology).

It's been gong on for years, unfortunately.

Sher

MelJ. First of all our main checking account is with PNC. So I was doubly interested in your experience.
A couple of trips ago I started to place funds in my credit union account for cash withdrawals. I stopped using my PNC checking account on trips.
It would still hurt me, believe me if they cleaned out the credit card account. But it wouldn't hurt me as much as the PNC account.
It just is frightening to think that no matter what we can be victims.
Sorry about your experience.

greg

I am always concerned about this type of problem. Others who claimed to have traveled frequently think I am paranoid, but the posting validates that the this type of event happens to even to those who have traveled a lot.

I think the way it works is by skimming the card using a narrow insert in the card slot. To reduce, but perhaps not eliminate, this type of attack, I always peek into the slot as well as jiggle the card slot enclosure hard to make sure it is solidly screwed in. If it is loose, I don't use that ATM machine. They capture the PIN by some sort of video device hidden near the machine. If I see a brochure rack type of thing near the machine, I look around to see if there is a hidden camera. I cover the keypad from such rack as well as from behind me while entering PIN covering the key pad.

I check my email every night for bank alerts confirming the alerts are due to activities I initiated. I change my bank alerts to be extra sensitive during trips.

The aggressiveness of fraud monitoring differs from bank to bank.

NYCFoodSnob

What bank in Venice was it, and where was it located? Was the ATM machine inside the bank or was it accessible from the sidewalk?