rex

Thanks to the abundant and generous advice on another thread, our family of six (or might be seven) has our itinerary coming together rather solidly - - but we are divided over the ease... or difficulty... of going straight to the villa upon arrival.

Here are issues:

1. Middle daughter arrives earlier than the rest of us at 1:42 pm (starts earlier because she is coming from Los Angeles, with a red-eye LAX-ORD, then ORD-SJU/SJU-STT). She may or may not be able to rent a car (get one van? or two sedans? initiate rental on which island?), as she is 23 years old. Obviously, she would not be time-constrained to get to the villa, with or without a car (wouldn't mind using taxi, as needed).

2. The rest of us arrive STT at 9:42 pm; in theory, middle daughter could meet us (with van? or without?) and "show us the way", taking ferry service (though I think the car ferries stop running earlier in the evening than the no-car ferries). Alternatively, we could book a one-night hotel stay, explore St Thomas at our leisure, and take the ferry anytime we want during the day after our one-night stay on STT.

3. The two villas we have tentatively selected have availability for plan A or plan B, but not both. Villa A is fine with five-night minimum (but not four), and is available starting on our arrival day. It's on the southeast coast. Villa B would ordinarily like five nights minimum, but it is not available until the day after we arrive, and thus, they are willing to concede this requirement and permit a four-night stay. It's on the west coast. Should location be a factor in our decision?

Our (likely) choice of hotel (modest) on St. Thomas would make the cost issue irrelevant (i.e., hotel rooms will be about the same cost oer night as the villa, per night).

So, I think it mostly boils down to what might or might not feel like a burden - - to catch the ferry immediately after arrival at STT - - versus (minimally) unpacking and repacking the next day. The overnight on STT plan allows us to spend a partial day there - - which we might choose to do as a day trip anyway, using some/all of one our days on St John.

The whole trip is still cramming quite a bit of "things we plan to do" in a moderately short time (i.e., not a lot of "dolce far niente" time).

Opinions? (especially if you have faced this issue of after dark arrival on STT, headed for STJ)...

As always, thanks in advance for all replies... and...

Best wishes,

Rex
(from the Europe forum)

stella39

Rex,

Arriving so late at night I would stay one night in STT. Go with West coast villa.(Cruz Bay) The south east villa (Coral Bay) will be a 40 minute ride in the dark. I'm assuming this where the villa's are. This is JMHO.
Keep us posted on your decision. Have a great trip.

escargot

agree w/ stella. Addt'l thoughts as to staying night in St T: your daughters flight may be delayed, and/or with a villa she will likely (?) need to get in some drinks, food, etc -and it is a long flight for her and she may be tired - I think stay in St T - she may even have time to sit and grab a little sunshine, relax, etc. If your flight delayed, you won't have to worry about connections to villa either or having her hanging around waiting and in the dark on an island she is not familiar with. Next day you can all go across together and in daylight to get settled at a leisurely pace.

Hopefully all flights will be on time and daughter can have a nice late night snack and drink waiting for you all.

medhead

Hi Rex, I think you were one of the main people who helped me plan my trip to Rome, Liguria, and Provence last summer. I asked a lot of questions, and I'd be very pleased if I could return the favor a little bit! I'm much more familiar with St. John than I am with anything in Europe.

Here’s my take on your two plans:

Plan A:

I have flown to STT on the 9:59 from Miami a few times. The late night arrival, in and of itself, isn’t a big logistical problem. You won't have a problem getting a taxi and taking the ferry across the channel. I would not, however, have your daughter meet you at STT. It's not so safe to be moving around on St. Thomas after dark (though I wouldn't worry at all about your larger group doing the taxi-ferry transfer, away from Charlotte Amalie). The main issue with the late arrival is whether you'll be too tired to feel like accomplishing the whole transfer at that late hour. The trip to Villa A, including two car trips and a ferry, could take nearly two hours, even if you time your arrival at the ferry dock perfectly.

I’m not sure if it’s possible to rent a van on St. John, but even if you can, don’t. The roads are very steep, and windy, and not always in good repair. A van would be unpleasant do drive there. I personally would only drive a four-wheel drive vehicle on St. John. I suppose you could get away with sedans, but I don’t see the point, and the only rental vehicles I’ve ever seen there are Jeeps, anyway. I don’t know if you’re allowed to rent one as a 23 year-old, but I suspect that it’s no problem at all. The long arm of the law is not very long in St. John. Most rental vehicles are Wranglers and Libertys (Liberties?). Maybe you can find an Explorer, or some similar-sized SUV that you can all fit into. I recommend against Wranglers. It may seem appealing to drive around the island with the top down, but the sun beating down on you will get old very quickly.

So, for Plan A, I’m envisioning that your daughter does whatever she feels like on St. Thomas, takes the ferry over to St. John during the day, rents a car, and maybe goes to the supermarket to stock the villa. Then she can take a nap, and either drive back to Cruz Bay to pick you up there, or just meet you at the Villa. One thing to keep in mind here in making that decision is that the road out to Villa A, on the southeastern coast, will be long, steep, windy, and extremely dark. Depending on her comfort with driving, your daughter may not feel great about making that drive after flying all night on the redeye. If I were her, I’d mix myself up a painkiller and wait for you at the villa. Also, keep in mind that the taxis on St. John are big pickup trucks that have bench seating installed in the back. Your entire party, plus luggage, will be able to fit into one, and you’ll have a nice adventure on the way over.

Plan B:

As I said, St. Thomas shouldn’t be explored much at night. So, if you go with Plan B, you’ll go straight to your hotel, where you’ll meet your daughter, who has been waiting there for you. You’ll then have some time to explore St. Thomas in the morning. I have to admit that I’ve never had much interest in any aspect of St. Thomas, except for traveling through it to get to St. John. So I can’t comment much on how valuable it would be to have that extra time there. If I had only four or five days to spend, I’d spend none of that time in St. John. So, if I were doing Plan B, I’d stay close to the airport, go straight to my hotel, wake up early, and get to St. John as soon as I could. I’d rent the vehicle(s) on St. John, not on St. Thomas.

So, finally, because the night or your arrival is basically wasted time either way, and because I personally don’t have any interest in St. Thomas, I’d be inclined to go with Plan A, all things being equal. However, this is ignoring the issue of which villa is preferable. Yes, location is definitely very important, and I think it should probably be the deciding factor here. I suppose this issue was probably covered extensively in the previous threads, while I wasn’t around (I admit, I only come to these boards when it’s time to plan a vacation). I suppose Villa A is somewhere around Coral Bay. Even though I come to St. John mostly for snorkeling and sailing, not for, say, hanging around in Cruz Bay’s bars, I still feel dependent enough on Cruz Bay that I’d be happier sleeping closer to it. I’m not sure which area you’d prefer, but do keep in mind that the drive across the island is a long one. Without knowing where you’re staying, Stella39’s estimate of 40 minutes is reasonable. It could be even longer.

medhead

Oops, a typo. That should have read:

If I had only four or five days to spend, I’d spend none of that time in St. Thomas. (not "in St. John&quot.

Tuxedocat

Rex: IMO, you should maximize your time on St. John. There's little to see/do if you arriving at 10 p.m. at night and why spend money for a night at hotel you don't really enjoy, and loosing more time on St. Thomas. If you arrive on time, you will be there at a time when traffic is very light so you will be able to get your luggage and get the ferry at Red Hook by 11 p.m. (I think this may be their last ferry. I'd double-check.) You'll be on St. John by 11:30 which will still allow you a nice nightcap at your villa before turning in. You'd be able to start your real vacation the next morning. You daughter should either rent a car/van on St. John. With just herself to manage, she could make her way to the villa with ease. With a rental car (any villa agent should be happy to assist in arranging such a rental) your daughter will be able to tool around the island a bit, figure out the lay of the land and have some cocktails ready for you when you arrive. She'd better, you putting her through college, taking her on fancy vacations and all.

medhead

I definitely agree with Tuxedocat's idea of maximizing time on St. John! For what its worth, the last ferry from Red Hook leaves at midnight. I suppose there could conceivably be a combination of a flight delay, baggage wait, and taxi commotion that could result in being stranded on St. Thomas until the morning. So there'd be something of a risk. Again, I'd think the choice of villa would be the deciding factor.

I also agree that his daughter should have some cocktails ready upon arrival. The local drink of choice is the pain killer.

rex

Wow... what a division of opinions!

Doesn't anyone have anything positive to say about spending (part of) the day <i>after</i> arrival on St. Thomas?

Appreciate the advice about four-wheel drive vehicles.

The two villas (at the risk of naming them specifically - - i know it's paranoid - - but I don't want anyone messing me up by asking to have a hold put on them!) are on Dever's Bay (available from the actual arrival day); it is described as &quot;right ON the beach&quot;... and the other one, available only the <i>after</i> arrival is in the Cruz Bay area; it is perhaps a tiny bit more upscale (and has wireless internet - - I know we shouldn't care about this, but the apples have not fallen far from the geeky tree, and it will get used); it's decribed as a short walk to the Westin (beach, other amenities available, one presumes).

The cost per night is scarcely a few dollars apart.

escargot

ah yes, the diversity comes from us being individually who we are...I am the worrier, and arriving at 10pm and hoping for no delays, etc and getting the 11pm or midnight ferry would cause me silly stress - likey you would indeed make one of them. So if you are not the worrier as I am, then go for it !

the ferry site I have in my book is
www.stjohnusvi.com/ferry.html

the midnight one is from Red Hook/ others leave early am and on from other ports so you have the option of the night in St T and an early departure to St J from several areas, some earlier than others.

I will address the St T question: I do have something good to say about St T. We have stayed there twice, once at Marriott Frenchmen Reef (smaller side) and once at Ritz , - St J's four times at Westin, Caneel Bay and Virgin Gorda.

We enjoyed both our stays at St T's - I wouldn't go back now again, but we enjoyed driving the island, golf at Mahoganey, Snuba, and just vegging on the beach. We had many fabulous dinners (and just as fabulous ones and more so on St J's). It is an easy trip direct for us from the east coast and for a 3/4 dy weekend worked well. We also did go out at night (family of four) and during one stay over the holidays enjoyed Christmas activities downtown and were not frightened to be there in the dark, the people were very welcoming and friendly.

Different people have different experiences, and so different opinions evolve.

St. J's is , for us, a far more laid back experience, hiking, more snorkeling, and also vegging on the beach....and fabulous restaurants for the casual and the special night out. We prefer for, what to us is, the more laid back feeling, less developed feeling of St J's, VG, etc.

So if you were interested in seeing some of St T &quot;because you are in the vicinity&quot; and want to check it out a bit, that would be up to you - but w/out a car there I think you are limited and don't know the particulars of having to rent there for taking it to St J's....that might be more of a pain than worth it.

If you want to take a few hours in the morning, see C Amalie, shopping area, have a nice lunch, or taxi to say Red Hook and walk a bit and have lunch before heading over to St J's, I think that is an option only you can decide.

If it is a short trip, and you want to get relaxed asap then head directly to St J's - I don't think you should feel like you are missing anything or have regrets if you skip St T this time - you will love these islands and want to come back - but I do think, which I mentioned on your last post, a day boat trip is a lovely way to get a real feel for the whole area and see the other islands a bit and it will only make you want to return.

Whatever you decide, you will enjoy yourselves and being together and we await another excellent rex tirp report when you return - I've enjoyed many of your suggestions on the European board so I know the report will be perfect in many ways. Enjoy.

medhead

Escargot: great post. Well put.

Rex: Devers Bay isn't on the Southeast coast of the island at all! It's one of the South shore bays, but it's at the western end of the island. Quite close to Cruz Bay. So you can disregard all of our admonitions about the 40+ minute, winding, treacherous road out to the eastern side of the island. Devers Bay is a relatively short, easy drive from Cruz Bay, and it's only two bays and a few minutes farther out than the Westin. A much simpler taxi ride than any of us were contemplating, and a much simpler drive for your daughter, too. In fact, the big supermarket happens to be right on your way into or out of town.

In general, the south shore beaches tend to be more protected from currents, especially in the winter, and that makes for better snorkeling. Devers Bay may be an exception, I guess, as it's a very shallow little bay. At least you'd know there's good snorkeling nearby.

On the other hand, many of the south shore beaches are rocky beaches, not sandy ones. So, if you're envisioning walking right out of your villa onto pristine white sands, you might want to verify exactly what beach the villa is &quot;on.&quot; I don't actually remember if there's any sand at the Devers Bay beach, because I've never been there, but I'm pretty sure that there isn't any sand at Hart Bay, which is the next one over to the east.

As for the other villa, if it's within walking distance of the Westin, then it's quite close to Devers Bay, and it's general geographic area shouldn't make any difference to you. I wouldn't assign much value to the use of the Westin's facililties. To be honest, though I have stayed near the Westin frequently, I've never been on the grounds. Maybe there's something there that you'd want. But they definitely have only one beach, and it's a relatively lame one. It's very small, and usually densely populated, with lots of little kids and their attendant noise. Also, Great Cruz Bay (where the Westin's beach is) is a favorite mooring spot, and there's lots of boating traffic in and out, including the Westin ferry itself. If I were staying at a villa in the area, but not at the Westin itself, I definitely wouldn't be going to their beach.

Oh, one last tip, if you happen to choose the Devers Bay option: there are some tiny but deserted and nice sandy beaches on Ditliff Point, which is at the other end of Rendezvous Bay. You have to hike a little bit to get to them, or you can swim out from Klein Bay. The thing is, on the eastern side of Ditliff Point is Fish Bay, and that's where the sharks hang out. Nurse sharks, I believe. People say they're not aggressive, and I once even snorkeled with someone who swam down to play with one. They range in size from about 2 feet to 14 feet, though I believe the ones in Fish Bay are mostly babies. Me personally, I don't care how small or how harmless they are, I don't wanna run into one while I'm snorkeling. So, I don't snorkel in Fish Bay, and you may choose to avoid it too.

rex

Okay, clarification... some of you have concluded that the villa &quot;on the southeast&quot; is near/on Coral Bay - - but I think that smething got misrepresented to me wrong (I had never personally studied a map myself). Both villas are southwest, and probably quite close to each other. The &quot;first&quot; one (available no arrival night) is on Devers Bay, so... less than 2 miles? from the ferry arrival dock on Cruz Bay. The &quot;second one&quot; (NOT available on arrival night; possibly more upscale, with the internet) says that it overlooks both Great Cruz Bay AND Chocolate Hole - - so it must be on that little peninsula between the two - - and this, not far from the first one also.

So, the trip from frry to villa is perhaps of little or no consequence - - whether for daughter who arrives earliest... or for the rest of us. arriving at night.

Might flip the decision. I think that escargot expressed it well - - has more to do with personality than actual &quot;ease&quot; or &quot;difficulty&quot;.

medhead

We crossed our posts...

I know that peninsula between Great Cruz Bay and Chocolate Hole pretty well. I've never been to any part of it from which you can see both bays, but if there is one, then it must be all the way at the top, and that would make it a very long walk indeed down to the Westin. Much too far to walk, really, you'd have to drive to get there or to any beach. Even if you did want to walk the very long distance down to the Westin, you'd have to head down a very steep hill, on a narrow road with no sidewalks... basically you really need to drive to get anywhere. Not that this is so bad, because as I said you'd be quite close to Cruz Bay, and even pretty close to some of the nice white-sand north shore beaches. It's a good location, but if you want to walk to the water, then you gotta go with Devers Bay.

escargot

Re: Westin property. We have been there once during what would be considered likely 'off time' meaning no school vacation and once during.
Non school vacation times was quieter, a handful of little ones - During is another story entirely.

Personally, the beach is fine for me while staying there to enjoy for a few hours here or there between other things because it is easy (ie; a few hours late in day towards evening when everyone else is gone and enjoy a book and cocktail - ore early in morning before we head out. Otherwise it is not an impressive beach nor one I would seek out if I were not on property and when the little ones are there jumping on that floaty things and making lots of noise I find it disruptive. Better to seek out the solace of quieter spots for me at other beaches.

Poolside bar and pool nice - again for me at this point since my kids are in 20's, not when little ones as much as I love them are jumping and screaming and playing &quot;Marco - Polo&quot;

The grounds are lovely in the way &quot;resort grounds&quot; are - perfectly groomed with little walkways. Not lush in that pure island natural way - you will find that in plenty of other places.

We enjoy the bar and facilities for convenience when staying there.

It's a very long uphill walk from the beach to other places (particularly some rooms, bar) altho they do have little golf carts going around you can jump on - so Rex, if you want to check it out as a fodorite and visit for an hour or a drink in that way it might interest you but I personally wouldn't miss other things on the island to do that.

Nowhere worth eating there, to me, versus all the other magnificent spots on island Zozo's, stone Terrace, Asolare, Paradiso, Lucy's and my favorite, Chateau Bordeaux (for special night, sunset, magnificent views of islands and mountains) but likely you will see that driving around in daytime also - but take transport b/c ride home is windy if you do go)

escargot

Ok, Rex I promise this is it !! I've had my shower, which is where I always think (it's been a long day following a looong work week) -

So I'm thinking of your logistics, and I went back to your first post to see your interests (shopping and history were mentioned). Not much shopping on St. J's.

Also noting you are in one villa 1st night and switching next day....I'm assuming villa's will have no food, drink, etc - .so if daughter arrives she either has to get minimal provisions and you have to clean up and move them or you do without - And you still have to basically wake up and get out. No unpacking or getting settled here either. That would be a tease for me.

So I would stay 1st night in St Thomas near Charlotte Amalie walking distance if possible - It eliminates worrying (or wondering) about flight times, delays, extra logistics of ferries at night, etc - daughter arrives and it is close enough to airport.

Daughter can check in (which likely won't be until 3pm between luggage, transport and check in) if she's totally beat she can shower and rest or shop till she drops and have a nice light dinner in a variety of places (see if Alexander's is still there, small, friendly place) or somewhere like that -

She doesn't have to buy any provisions except maybe some water/juice for her room (tell her to pack some nips of her drink of choice (and the rest of you too) and she can easily grab in C Amalie whatever you all might want (cheese/cracker/pieces of fruit) for when you arrive

Rest of you arrive at lodging say around 10:30pm, everyone has a drink from their little carry nips, jumps in their jammies, chat a bit and gets a good nights sleep unless you are night owls and want to party. But I hate waking my first morning exhausted and daughter has a long journey to get there.

No one has to unpack. On top of your suitcase is your jammies, and whatever you will wear the next day (shorts, sandals, t shirt).

Wake up in St. T's, have breakfast and since you mentioned shopping, don't take another day away from St J's as you mentioned you might, do it now, most of the stores open by 9am -weave thru the streets, down to vendors plaza, and if you're power shoppers a few hours should do it, get your ferry or if you are in the mood lunch first. Retrieve your bags from your room and you aren't far from one of the ferry points.

Get to St J's, get your car, stop for some must have immediate provisions, unpack in the one place you are really staying and set up the bar. Now you don't have to go back to St T's just to shop. There are a few places to shop in St J's, (boutique types, t shirt stores, but nothing like St T's if the group is interested in linens, jewelry, crafty stuff- just be careful not all prices beat those at home or thru other places so if you are in the market for something, scope it out before you leave to make sure it's worth the carrying.

If you find in your research that there is some history thing you can't miss on St T's, do it that day too- and then relax the rest of your time away.

You can all pack light - St J's is so casual - beach bum clothes in day, and at night, sandals, summer pants or shorts and a casual top is all you need w/ maybe a light sweater/top if so inclined.

below is a good site about shopping and history which might help you decide if you even want to spend even a minute on St T's or just bolt straight for St J's. Maybe your interests are such you would want a full day trip back to St T's, but I'd rather see you get it out of the way, whether it's 3 hours, 1/2 day or more, that first day and then move on to the relaxing, snorkeling, walking and history of St J's.

http://www.vinow.com/stthomas/shopping/

That being said, if you aren't going to shop on St T's and there is nothing else that jumps out at you, then skip it altogether -

escargot

If you walk/hike around the Annaberg Sugar Plantation (which I would vote for/if you don't know the history and go it alone, read about it first)
if there is an older blind woman sitting and making baskets go and talk to her. She will tell you all about basket making/ how they collect the leaves only in the moonlight and why/ etc and if she has any for sale, it is one of my favorite baskets collected over years of traveling b/c of her. An additional bonus is her baskets are also nicely woven.

escargot

Annaberg is on St J's - sorry, had to add it and didn't want you thinking it was on St T's.

stella39

Rex,

After reading your additional posts and pin pointing your villa choices, I have changed my mind about you spending your first night on STT. If it was me I would go to STJ directly. You arrive at 9:42, I think you can make the 11:00 PM ferry. It's a 20 minute ferry ride. You could be in your Plan A villa around midnight. When you said south east, my mind said Coral Bay. But the villa is close to Cruz Bay. Very doable.(if that's a word)

The reason I changed my mind because of where the villa is located and if you stay overnight in STT, after checking out of your hotel in the morning you will have 5/6 people&quot;s luggage to deal with. I would not want to drag my luggage around STT shopping and sight seeing. I have seen people do it but it's not for me.

I don't know what time your departure flight is but a better plan would be to do some shopping on your way home.

You don't have a lot of time in the USVI and i would try to organize my time with the shopping and sight seeing on my way home. Most villa rentals want you out by 10:00AM and if you have a late flight in the afternoon it would be perfect.

You still have to deal with luggage on the way back BUT what most people do is have a cabby hold your luggage until you are ready to go to the airport. You give them a time and place.

These are only suggestions and I wish you much success no matter what you decide. The important part is to have fun with your family.

rex

Thanks for the continuing info... a new plan might be emerging - - I might go a day early, since I tend to like being the &quot;arranger&quot;. I would stay that first night on STT, meeting middle daughter's arriving flight at 1:42, and be ready to deal with renting (at least one of) the vehicle(s), and stocking the basics from the grocery - - even if she wants to just catch up on her sleep from the long LAX-ORD-SJU-STT trip.

Then, I/we can meet the others, having gotten all settled in, and escort them back to the villa upon their arrival.

Hardly a &quot;sacrifice&quot; on my part!

escargot

Oh I like this plan a lot. (also being an arranger as well as the worrier)
You can get a night on St T so you can check out what you want (maybe rent that one car and scope some things out before getting daughter/ or walk downtown, lots of options) Dad meets tired daughter and gets some alone time with her and everyone else gets a welcoming committee. Good work Rex.

tpatricco

Sounds like the best of all possible scenarios Rex. Arriving a day early is a noble sacrifice for the benefit of all!

Finding the villa, adapting to driving on the opposite side of the road and dealing with everyone and their luggage after long day of travel in the dark wouldn't be a relaxing way to start the trip.

I'm so excited for your trip...what are your dates? Trish