jtown821

Hey all,

It's going to be my first time visiting Japan this November (it's been the #1 place I've wanted to travel for a long time so I'm very excited) and I could use some advice! I'm going with my girlfriend, we're both 26 years old and more interested in cities/towns such as Kyoto and Kanazawa as well as places immersed in nature or tradition such as Mt. Koya, Mt. Hiei, or Jigokudani Monkey Park. We're also obviously excited to see Tokyo and the other well-known areas of Japan. I've done a lot of research but I'm still not so sure about the route I'm considering and would love some advice. I don't want to be rushed - I would rather enjoy less things fully than try to jam a ton into too little time. Here's my rough itinerary:

11/5 - Arrive Tokyo
11/6 - Tokyo
11/7 - Tokyo
11/8 - Tokyo (Kamakura+Yokohama day trip)
11/9 - Tokyo (Hakone day trip)
11/10 - Travel to Nikko (stay overnight)
11/11 - Travel to Takaragawa Onsen (stay overnight)
11/12 - Travel to Matsumoto (visit castle and Jigokudani Yaen-koen National Park)
11/13 - Travel to Takayama
11/14 - Travel to Kanazawa
11/15 - Kanazawa
11/16- Travel to Kyoto
11/17 - Kyoto
11/18 - Kyoto (Nara day trip)
11/19 - Kyoto (Enryakuji/Mt. Hiei day trip)
11/20 - Osaka => Koya-san (stay overnight at Mt. Koya)
11/21 - Koya-san to Osaka => Himeji => Hiroshima
11/22 - Hiroshima (Miyajima day trip)
11/23 - Fukuoka (fly to Bangkok)

I haven't booked my flight to Bangkok yet so I'm willing to tag on an extra day or two if it seems necessary. I'm most excited about Kyoto so do you think I should stay another day there?

Is the routing ok or is there a more efficient way? Would you add or take away days anywhere? Any places highly recommended that I've left off? I'd love to see Naoshima if there's time as well as Site of Reversible Destiny in Yoro outside of Nagoya.

All advice welcome. Thanks!

Kathie

If you don't want to be rushed, you need to make some serious revisions to your itinerary. For instance, you have a whole series of one nights stays - 4 of them - right after two day trips from Tokyo. This is a punishing schedule and one that allows for almost no time to see/do/experience anything of the places you have chosen. One night somewhere is just that - one night, plus a couple of hours in the afternoon/evening and a couple of hours in the morning, then on to the next stop. You say you are most excited about Kyoto, but you have given yourself just one full day there! We spent 6 nights in Kyoto - which means 5 full days and would have enjoyed even more time!

Each time you change locations, you lose from half a day to much of a day -figure from when you check out of your lodgings in one place until you are in your next lodgings.

By my count you have 17 days in Japan, not counting arrival and departure days. Scale back your itinerary and allow yourselves to enjoy some of what this remarkable country has to offer.

mrwunrfl

Welcome to fodors. That is simply not a realistic itinerary and does not come anywhere close to a plan that will allow you to "enjoy less things fully than try to jam a ton into too little time". It is the opposite of that.

kja

While I agree with Kathie that you should re-think parts of your itinerary, I'm one of the few Fodorites who doesn't mind frequent relocation -- assuming you know what you are getting into and plan accordingly. But even if you are comfortable with them -- and they aren't ideal for most travelers -- some things to consider:

As Kathie noted, despite your expressed interest in Kyoto, you've given yourselves only 1 full day there. I spent 6 full days in Kyoto and Nara and did not see everything I wanted to see. Make sure you think through your time there very carefully!

"11/13 - Travel to Takayama
11/14 - Travel to Kanazawa
11/15 - Kanazawa
11/16- Travel to Kyoto "

This is another segment that I would find too fast-paced. I gave Takayama 1.5 days and thought it too little. I gave Kanazawa about 2 days and thought it too little. Again, think through what YOU want to see and experience.

"11/20 - Osaka => Koya-san (stay overnight at Mt. Koya)"

My understanding is that one's choice of a temple can make a huge difference to one's experience of Koya-san. I was pleased with my stay at Shojoshin-in, which still gets good reviews:
https://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/...n=Shojoshin-in

Be sure to reach Koya-san before your check-in time -- temples (and ryokan, should you stay in any) can be sticklers about that, since they need to prepare your meal.

While in Koyasan, do consider making time for a long walk through Okuno-in in / around dusk -- so evocative!
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e4901.html

"11/21 - Koya-san to Osaka => Himeji => Hiroshima"

Do you plan to visit Osaka on this day? I wouldn't have had time to do so -- I wanted to visit some places on Koya-san before leaving (e.g., a day time walk through Okuno-in and a visit to Kongobu-ji), and I wanted time to visit Himeji-jo and the gardens beside it before heading elsewhere. YMMV.

"11/21 ... => Hiroshima
11/22 - Hiroshima (Miyajima day trip)"

Rather than spending the night in Hiroshima, I spent the night in Miyajima, and thought it well worth it, particularly for the chance to see the Itsukushima Shrine at both low and high tides, but also for the peace and quiet of that lovely island before day-trippers arrive. Again, JMO.

BTW, I trust you've found japan-guide -- an excellent resource!

Hope that helps!

russ_in_LA

You have gotten some great advice above. If you have not read many trip reports by now, I suggest that you do so. These will give a very good sense of how much time to devote to each place and the travel times to get there. Also check hyperdia.com for travel times. For example, your plan on 11/12 will require 7 hours of travel just to get from point A to B, without stopping to eat or visit.

I suggest you try to cut out a couple of the 1 night stops and spend more time in fewer places. Here is an idea of how to make this from insanely busy to still very busy, without completely decimating your original itinerary:

• Tokyo 5 nights - 2 full days Tokyo + 2 day trips (I suggest Nikko and Hakone)
• Tokyo to Jigokudani, then overnight in Matsumoto, see castle the next day (or overnight in Shibu Onsen, then on to Matsumoto the next day)
• Takayama 2 nights – full day seeing the many sights
• Kanazawa 2 nights (this is minimum, 3 is better. You could possibly steal 1 night from Takayama, but only if you get there early and leave late the next day)
• Kyoto 6 nights – 3 full days Kyoto + 2 day trips (to Nara and Himeji)
• Koyasan – 1 night (don’t cut this out!)
• Miyajima 1 night (with stop in Hiroshima)
• Fukuoka 1 night

This is still very busy, but slightly less exhausting, and allowing you some time to see something other than the inside of a train or a hotel room. Of course, there an infinite variations, so you have some tough editing decisions. Good luck!

jtown821

Thank you all for the replies! Sorry how ridiculous the schedule looks, it's my first time really doing a trip like this and it appears I've been a bit naive so I really appreciate all the advice. First off, I'm going to add 3 days to the itinerary since I have not booked my flight out of Japan yet and have the flexibility to add a few more days in.

russ_in_LA, I definitely will not cut Koyasan out! That is probably the thing I want to do the most after seeing Kyoto.

kja, thanks for the detailed response! I'm going to take your advice on staying overnight in Miyajima. I was debating doing that already but you've swayed me with your endorsement. I'm not really planning on exploring Osaka unless I hear it is a must do. I haven't heard anything bad but I also have yet to hear anything special about it so with the limited time, I'd rather see some other places.

I'm hoping that adding 2-3 days onto the trip will help in addition to modifying the itinerary and taking some things out.

Kathie and mrwunrfl, I appreciate the reality check.

Let's say I follow a bit more closely to the itinerary russ posted and add in 3 more days as well - do you guys think that's a bit more doable and do you think the Japan Rail Pass is worth it?

kja

Planning a trip is always hard, so no need to apologize. Instead, kudos for taking our input to heart! That you could add 3 days to your trip is awesome!

Russ has offered you a very nice plan, but we all travel for different reasons and different paces. I would encourage you to take Russ's excellent advice into consideration, perhaps as a starting point, around which you can plan your OWN journey. JMO. FWIW, I'd tweak it a bit -- for ex, I loved your original idea of an overnight in Nikko (too much to see there, IME, for a day trip) -- but the point that both Russ and I are, I think, highlighting is that you need to think realistically about your plan and make some very hard decisions about what you will / will not include in this trip.

Re: Miyajima -- look at Momiji-so -- not fancy, but a more-or-less affordable ryokan that still gets good reviews:
https://www.japaneseguesthouses.com/...yokan=Momijiso

And just to be clear -- please plot your times out carefully to ensure that you can spend time on Miyajima while still having time to absorb Hiroshima's memorials. The Peace Museum, the Park, the Dome ... IMO, they deserve to be seen, and at whatever pace works for you. Give them as much time as you can. JMO.

You'll have a great experience no matter what you decide!

jtown821

Thanks kja, very much appreciate your added pointers and your Miyajima recommendation!

MinnBeef

Outstanding advice from kja, who was one of my virtual Japan coaches before I travelled there in Nov. 13, along with Kathie and Russ, who were my virtual traveling companions, being there at the same time I was there. I like the general guidance of Russ' agenda. As you will be there in November, you should be hitting koyo at a very good time, which was my primary reason for choosing to go in November. The koyo in Matsumoto were lovely, probably just past peak, while in Kyoto, they were just starting to hit peak. Eikan-do temple colors were the best I saw during my trip, but so many other gorgeous colors in many of the Kyoto temples. I also agree with kja's advice re. staying overnight in Miyajima (more breathtaking colors) but do allow yourself a full day if possible for Hiroshima. The Peach Memorial Museum is both sobering and incredible and seeing the A-Bomb dome at twilight was eerie. And I know you have a day trip planned for Hakone but given your priority of seeing nature, you might want to consider an overnight there in order to raise your chances of seeing Mt. Fuji in all of its glory. I had to go back there twice as originally it was fogged in, likely impacted by a typhoon in the Phillipines at the time. But the second time, when it was clear, oh my, a lifetime memory!

I'm looking forward to watching your itinerary progress and eventually, reading your trip report!

MB

Kathie

November is prime time for koyo. Take a look at our photos for some inspiration: http://www.marlandc.com/Japan-2013 There is a link to my trip report if you are interested.

I also recommend an overnight (or even 2) at Hakone if you can fit it into your schedule.

kja

@ MinnBeef -- thanks!

hawaiiantraveler

11/5 to 11/9 Tokyo
11/10-11/11. Matsumoto day trip to Jigokudani if you must
11/12-11/14 Kanazawa
11/15-11/19 Kyoto
11/20 Koyasan
11/21-11/22. Hiroshima
11/23 Fukuoka

Would make more sense to me and you will see most of your wishes. Start your 14 day JR pass on 11/12. Buy the special ticket from Tokyo to Matsumoto out of Shinjuku iirc. Check www.hyperdia.com for your prices and schedules. Maybe point to point tickets are cheaper as I am just eyeballing this itinerary but you can figure out prices on the hyperdia link I left above.

Aloha!

Kavey

Agree fully with those suggesting paring back your itinerary / single nighters. Great news that you can add in a few extra days. As multiple have said, I think your original plan shortchanges Kyoto but of course it depends on your personal interests.

For Miyajima, I can also recommend Auberge Watanabe. We stayed there a few years ago and enjoyed the small traditional family run ryokan and friends visited this year and they also loved it.

mrwunrfl

>>I appreciate the reality check.
Am glad you took my post as it was intended.

You got some good advice on itinerary options. One specific idea I can give: drop Yokohama. Also you can combine a visit to Kamakura with a stop in Hakone. Somehow.

But, just some general advice. You have too many one-night stays. Take a look at your original itinerary and figure out how you would do it if you followed a rule to not have two one-night stays back-to-back. What would you cut out?

You really need to look at how much time you would need at each stop to make it worthwhile. A case can be made for each and every one of your proposed stops that would make it worthwhile to spend AT LEAST two nights.

kja

"You have too many one-night stays."

As already mentioned, I'm a rare Fodorite who is not averse to 1-night stays, even consecutive ones. They aren't for everyone, but they can work very well for some of us! I've often done back-to-back one-nighters, without difficulty -- as long as I planned ahead. And with Japan's incredibly efficient luggage forwarding option, called takuhaibin; I found frequent changes of hotel extraordinarily easy. Here's the info:
http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2278.html
JMO!

Kathie

I like HT's suggested itinerary. It's much more realistic.

I know how hard it is to make cuts in your itinerary, I think we started out with twice as many destinations as what we actually chose in the end. The editing was well worth it, though.

jtown821

Thanks everyone. Continued advice that is really helping me. I thankfully have been able to convince my girlfriend to tack on 4 more days prior to flying out! Now, I am like kja to an extent, I don't mind 1-night stays especially because I only have a backpack opposed to other luggage. But I also had clearly crammed far too much in as you all pointed out. I have revised my itinerary quite a bit as I'm now flying out of Tokyo rather than Fukuoka. Let me know your thoughts!

11/5-11/10: Tokyo (day trip to Nikko, day trip to Hakone, and a day trip to either Takagawara Onsen or Kamakura or Nokogiriyama - thoughts on which of the 3?)
11/11: Osaka
11/12: Koyasan
11/13: Koyasan=>Hiroshima
11/14: Miyajima
11/15: Hiroshima=>Himeji (just to see the castle)=>Kyoto
11/16-11/20: Kyoto (day trip to Nara, day trip to Mt. Hiei)
11/21-11/22: Kanazawa
11/23-11/24: Takayama
11/25: Matsumoto=>Nagano
11/26: Jigokudani Monkey Park=>Tokyo
11/27: Leave Tokyo

I know 1 or 2 people have recommended either staying the night in Nikko or Hakone but I just don't think that's where I want to spend extra money. I'd rather spend the extra bit on lodging in Koyasan and Miyajima among a few other things.

Couple questions:

Which temple is everyone's favorite in Koyasan?

Am I really missing out by skipping Magome/Tsumago? It looks amazing but it's out of the way.

How's Korube Gorge? Another spot that I'm planning to skip but could make work with a couple minor changes.

kja

Even more time is even better! And your plan is getting better and better, IMO.

Do you already have your airline tickets? If not, try to fly into Kansai and out of Narita or vice versa. And if you have already booked into and out of Tokyo, consider putting all of your time in Tokyo at the end. You'll be tired upon arrival whether you keep moving or not, and it will save you want hotel stay. Just a thought!

I'm having a bit of trouble tracking when, exactly, you plan to change locations -- it's often helpful to lay things out by nights, rather than days. So, for example, do you plan to go from Kyoto to Kanazawa on the 20th or the 21st? I ask because I tend to think that Kanazawa and Takayama together really deserve a minimum of 4 full days (5 would be better), and I'm not sure you have that. I think it's great that you've added time to Kyoto, but I would urge you to leave the day trip to Mt. ? (sorry, I don't know it) as an only-if-you-have-time option. (In contrast, Nara is a "must" IMO.)

If you decide to trim your plans any further, I'd consider cutting Osaka or some time from Tokyo, my logic being that they are probably the cities most easily reached by international flights and so most easily seen on a future trip.

"1 or 2 people have recommended either staying the night in Nikko or Hakone but I just don't think that's where I want to spend extra money" -- fair enough, but I suspect that rooms in Tokyo will be FAR more expensive than just about anywhere else! If budget is a key consideration, overnight stays outside of Tokyo may well be worth a second thought. For example, look at the Turtle Inn Annex in Nikko:
http://www.turtle-nikko.com/hotori-an/

"Which temple is everyone's favorite in Koyasan?' -- as already mentioned, I loved Shojoshin-in; the link is in one of my earlier posts.

jtown821

Thanks kja!

I submitted a request for Shojoshin-in...we shall see what happens!

I do already have my flight booked to Narita arrving 11/5, but I do not have my outbound flight booked yet (going to book in the next few days). It will be to Bangkok as I'm continuing my travels in Southeast Asia after Japan so my only options for a cheap nonstop flight is from Tokyo or Fukuoka and I'd prefer Tokyo at this point with how the itinerary is coming together despite it creating a bit of backtracking. I like your idea of doing some or all of Tokyo at the end so I'll take that into consideration.

I think the reason why I see the city accommodations as cheap is because that's where I'm staying in hostels for about $20 per night opposed to the smaller towns where that option is limited and something like the Turtle Inn Annex above is the next level up.

And my bad about how I laid out the itinerary. I plan on Kanazawa on 11/21 but maybe I will push that up a day as you've suggested to 11/20 and make it 4 full days, 5 nights. If I listed a city/town on a date (such as Tokyo 11/5-11/10), I meant that I'll leave morning of the 11th for the next destination.

And the place outside Kyoto I want to go to, Mt. Hiei, is a personal thing. It's where the Tendai school of Buddhism is based (marathon monks) and it was learning of them years ago and watching a documentary that sparked some of my fascination with Japan. It can be done in a half day I believe though.

kja

"I plan on Kanazawa on 11/21 but maybe I will push that up a day as you've suggested to 11/20 and make it 4 full days, 5 nights." -- then you might be shortchanging Kyoto / Nara (IMO, easily worth 6 full days together) -- but again, it really depends on what YOU want to see / do.