Is this a relaxing place to spend a few days in the midst of more frantic touring in August? I have read Peter's comments and understand that it is not spectacular, but we're only interested in a pleasant place to relax a bit. Also, any suggestions on hotels, etc. for this city? We would like to stay at the Shangri-La, but because we are bringing kids we would need 2 rooms and it would be fairly expensive. Any other ideas for Western-run hotels actually on the Lake? Is the Holiday Inn (much cheaper than the Shangri-La) okay and close enough? Thanks.

The Holiday Inn is the furthest away from the lake of the foreign-name hotels, and more plain than the others. The Radisson Plaza is much closer to the lake--only a few minutes' walk from it, and a little more luxurious. I liked the Shangri-La very much when I stayed there, and you might not find the prices quite so indigestible if you just walk-in, or at least bargain over the phone just a day or two in advance. Not too far from the Shangri-La (over a hill path or a short taxi ride) the World Trade Centre (might be Center) Grand Hotel Zhejiang is a Chinese-run hotel but with several foreigners in senior management which is spotless, well-run, luxurious and probably cheaper than the others, especially if booked on arrival.

Peter N-H
http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html

Thanks for the advice, Peter. Since we're not expecting Nirvana, as you've previously suggested, I don't think we'll be disappointed with West Lake. Still, would you say that Hangzhou could make a relaxing several days' break? Or, is it better to spend the extra time in Shanghai and just plan on visiting Hangzhou for a day's excursion? We're also already planning on spending 3 nights in Suzhou, and using that as a base to explore some of the surrounding water towns, if that makes sense. With two teenagers, we tend to like to travel at a relatively relaxed pace.

If just relaxing is the aim, then Hangzhou is a better choice than Shanghai, I'd say, but three nights would almost certainly be enough.

Hangzhou is far from unpleasant, but is disappointing compared to the several hundred years of hype. If, as you say, you are prepared for that, then you'll probably find it a pleasant, digestible town compared to Shanghai.

In addition to the official sights, there are one or two pieces of modern architecture worth a second look (a rarity in China), some excellent cheap restaurants with tasty local dishes, and some interesting street markets. But being so famous and heavily besieged by tour groups does mean that Hangzhou is good for stripping the gullible of cash. Avoid the been-around-for-centuries tour group targeted restaurants, and visit the newer places used by residents. Huaiyang cai (the delicately flavoured food of the region) is well worth investigating.

The Seal Museum, close to the Shangri-La, is one of China's better small museums. Many people enjoy renting bicycles to cycle around the lake or off into the countryside.

Peter N-H
http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html

Peter has good advice, and it sounds like you completely understand the most important point, which is that if you don't expect too much from Hangzhou, you won't be disappointed.

We've lived in Shanghai for 5 years, and often want a nearby place to go for a relaxing weekend. Neither of us has ever been too impressed with Hangzhou after numerous trips, and had given up on it altogether, but we have so many friends who love it that we thought we'd give it another try. As we walked on the crowded sidewalk alongside the lake, next to a busy street crowded with cars spewing exhaust and busses with screeching brakes, we yelled to one another: "ISN'T THIS RELAXING? WHAT A NICE BREAK FROM THE BUSY CITY!"

Since we last visited, I've heard they've closed off a part of the walkway around the lake so that it's a pedestrian-only area, which would make it much nicer.

But unless you're at/on the lake itself, or in the surrounding hills, the city itself just looks (to me) like one of the less-busy parts of Shanghai. The average street in Hangzhou will have the same crowded, bustling sidewalks, chaotic mix of storefronts, traffic and bicycles, etc. With a population of almost 7 million, it's not a "small town" weekend hideaway by any stretch. Well, I realized as I typed that there are far more people (both expats and Chinese) who think it IS a relaxing weekend hidaway than there are those who agree with me. But of course, I'm right!

Do avoid the weekends if you can, which will be very crowded.

I think the cities themselves of Suzhou and Hangzhou are very similar (meaning an average street in the city, not the specific sights for which each city is known), so you might consider just adding 2 days to Suzhou and skipping Hangzhou altogether.

If your "frantic touring" itinerary doesn't yet include it, you might consider a trip to Yangshuo (near Guilin) for recharging as well as seeing a wonderful part of China. (Guilin, however, is another Hangzhou, IMHO - bustling, busy, and not relaxing). While the city of Yangshuo itself is a mix of the China-wide bustling city standard and an odd Westernized area with souvenier shops and Western cafes in which everyone speaks English, the countryside itself is unlike anywhere else in the world. The scenery is spectacular, with literally thousands of finger-shaped mountains shrouded in mist, and as you walk/ride your bike/sit in your hired golf-cart type vehicle, you pass by rice paddies with farmers in pointy straw hats leading thier oxen.

Good luck!

Andrea_expat, is there indeed a town near Shanghai -- perhaps one of the "water towns" -- that would make a good several days respite? And if so, can you recommend any hotels there? So far, we'd been thinking we'd skip Guilin and make our way directly from Xian to Shanghai (starting in Beijing), since Guilin seems so far out of the way. Do you think it's really worth the detour to go down to Guilin? I've heard the scenary is beautiful, but we're also thinking that in August it's likely to be raining down that way. Also, any suggestions for a hotel in Yangshuo, if we do get there? Do you know if we can take our luggage safely on the Li River trip out of Guilin to Yangshuo, so we can wind up in Yangshuo for a few nights? Thanks.

How about a 3-4 day cruise of the Yangtze Three Gorges from Chongqing to Yichang or Wuhan? Pay a little more for a 5* boat, and it can be a pretty relaxing few days to see scenery passing by.

After reading everyone's posts, we're having second thoughts about spending time in Hangzhou. We will be en route from Xian to the Shanghai area in mid-August (probably will proceed with the planned 3 nights in Suzhou before ending our trip in Shanghai) -- and the question is: do people think it would it be worth flying down to Guilin for 2 or 3 nights and then flying back up to Suzhou (I guess we'd need to fly in through Shanghai)? Or would it be better just to stop in Hangzhou for those few days before proceeding to Suzhou? We're not much on cruises, although if we had more time we would definitely try to get to the Yangtze. And, from everything we've read, although the Guilin / Li River scenary is supposed to be nice, Guilin and Yangshuo are likely to be rainy, overcast, crowded, and possibly as touristy as Hangzhou in August. Your opinions would be appreciated. Thanks.

Given your frame of mind, I don't see what's wrong with Hangzhou, and I certainly wouldn't swap it for the Yangzi, or Guilin and Yangshuo (pizza central), which will be even more packed out than Hangzhou. Note that August is a very low season for travel in China in the market that counts--the domestic one, which is about 30 times bigger than the international one. But Guilin is a top foreign tour group destination, far more visited than Hangzhou. The other watery towns in the area are rather small to last you a few days.

However, here's a suggestion. A short train or bus ride away from Hangzhou is Shaoxing (and bus or train from Shanghai), which I think is a far more interesting little town, full of reasonably priced accommodation, with relatively calm traffic, also with canals and boats to take on them. It has a small list of overrated famous tourist sights (don't bother with East Lake or the tomb of Yu the Great, for instance), and an amazing number of small sights, many of considerable charm. A collection of five sights, mostly old houses, with connections to the splendid writer Lu Xun are well worth seeing. The town has also managed to preserve a few areas of original housing which make for very pleasant strolls, and you can also get around and between these areas in 'hei peng chuan', 'black-awning boats' whose prices are regulated and posted. While it has its fair share of the hideous white-tile monstrosities which mar every Chinese city, the very centre has been rebuilt at typicall only six stories in height with hints of local traditional architectural design in the new buildings. (Any real architect would wince or snigger, but by Chinese standards this is pretty good.) The railway station is a very respectable modern building (as are all the main stations on this originally British-built branch line which terminates not far away in Ningbo). The central square in the town has what looks like a Mayan pyramid made of glass, next to an ancient pagoda, and a model made by channels in the concrete of the town's complex waterways. Such is the town's odd mix of ancient and modern. It's the home town of China's most revered calligrapher (and the area where he used to live is worth a visit), as well as several individuals beatified by communism, whose ancestral family homes are worth the view if you ignore the hagiographic displays.

The surrounding countryside can easily be reached by bus, and contains some excellent sights, including a remarkable tomb almost unknown to foreign or Chinese visitors, and the little watery town of Anchang, with several old mansions to visit, all now museums, but of the kind where there's none of the breathing-down-your-neck invigilation so common in China, and if you want to sit in that Qing dynasty chair you can. This is easily reached by public bus. It's very sleepy, and the chances of seeing another foreigner there are very slim.

Shaoxing is well off the tourist path compared to Hangzhou, and may just suit you very well. Local dishes made with the famous Shaoxing 'yellow wine' are worth trying, and you can get all the same Huaiyang dishes you can get in Hangzhou, too. It's not so far off the beaten track that you can't get versions of Western food (if you must) at branches of the ubiquitous (on the east coast anyway) Taiwanese coffee house, Shangdao ('on the island').

Have a look for Shaoxing in your guide book and see what you think. More specific recommendations available if it comes up short--but you need to ask soon as I have to go to NZ at the weekend.

Peter N-H
http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html

Thank you very much, Peter. I'm very pleased with your response because I wasn't really looking forward to the extra flying to Guilin. And, despite being an English major from a rather prestigious American university, I had to look up the word "invigilation," so you taught me something else, as well! We were in China once before back in the mid-80's, with - of course - a well supervised CITS led tour group, and invigilation certainly describes the creepy observation under which we always felt.

At any rate, Shaoxing sounds very inviting, and Anchang as well. Are these places within an easy taxi trip from Hangzhou or Shanghai? Close enough, perhaps, to be a day trip from Hangzhou, or would it be best to spend the night in Shaoxing? Also, do these towns have any English speakers at all? I trust you're confident that they could be managed by non-Chinese speakers or I know you wouldn't have suggested them.

Thank you again for all the wonderful help you provide on this board.

I was suggesting Shaoxing as a substitute or follow-on for Hangzhou--a base for a few days. Shaoxing is 58km from Hangzhou. Trains take about two-and-a-quarter hours, and buses are much quicker. From Shanghai you must change trains at Hangzhou so again, a bus is faster. It's 230km and luxury aircon buses with airline-style seats (some only three across the bus) and which take the expressways cost around Y70.

From Shaoxing city bus no. 118 takes about 45 minutes to Anchang, and its terminus is at the entrance to the town; so this isn't too tough.

You'll find some limited but adequate English at the Shaoxing Fandian, and the Shaoxing Guoji Dajiudian, which is the town's best hotel and not bad at all (classier than Hangzhou's Holiday Inn), although rack rates for a standard room only run US$50-80 (depending on height), and 40% off that is fairly standard if you just show up and ask. The town's best three-star is also perfectly adequate (the Wangchao Dajiudian) and a bit of nifty bargaining will get you a room for as little as US$25 here.

I don't think you'll find English speakers elsewhere, although menus in restaurants at the hotels mentioned, and at the Shangdao Coffee House mentioned earlier are in English. Whether that's a problem is really up to you. With a guide book which has Chinese characters for your destination, characters written for you by the hotel staff, a city map also with your destinations ringed by the staff, and enough mime to indicate 'start the meter' (although in small towns like Shaoxing there's not much chance of a problem anyway), all you need is a 'can do' attitude.

Few taxi trips around town (although there are several areas, particularly that of the Master Calligrapher's Native Place, and around the Bazi Qiao--'Bridge in the shape of the character for "eight"' worth doing on foot) will cost more than US$1. The tomb outside town I was mentioning is the Yin Shan Yueguo Wang Ling, which is about 16km away, again easily reachable by public bus, or by taxi if you want to. Flagfall is Y5 and includes 4km. After that it's Y2.20 per km. This is very rural, so you'll need to ask the cab to wait, and the meter will tick gently away unless you've bargained a fixed price. Certainly under US$10 round trip even with the meter. Bus fares for four return would probably come to US$1.50.

Welcome, away from the tourist meccas, to real China prices.

Peter N-H
http://members.shaw.ca/pnhpublic/China.html

Based on Peter's advice, we now have the following tentative itinerary for August, and am interested in comments about our proposed ratio of near-Shanghai experience vs relatively less time in Shanghai proper: Beijing 7 nights (need to be there for a meeting), Xian 3 nights, Hangzhou 2 nights, Shioxang 3 nights, Suzhou 3 nights, Shanghai 3 nights. This gives us only a day to look at West Lake, then 2 full days each for the Shioxang area, Suzhou and Shanghai. Is this too much for the "water towns" area, vs too little for Shanghai? I've heard (and read here) that Shanghai proper is a big, modern and hectic city with few "must-sees" aside from the Bund and Museum. We are parents and two teens, who prefer to enjoy the experience of a place, rather than pushing to "do" too many sites, especially in the kind of heat and/or monsoons we may encounter. Thanks for any input.

3 nights in Shanghai is enough, but 8 nights in Hangzhou, Suzhou and Shaoxing do seem a little much. Each of those cities are different, but still, you'll be spending 11 nights (including Shanghai) within a hundred mile radius. I just think you may want to skip one of those three cities, and visit one outside that area - like Louyang or Kaifeng that you were thinking about.

We were most recently thinking that the all-day daytime train to Kaifeng from Xian seems like a wasted day -- whereas it seems like it would be easy and quick to fly from Xian to Hangzhou. Also, to see both Louyang and Kaifeng, it looks like we'd have to give up maybe 3 days in the Shanghai area, not just 2. On the other hand, rkkwan, you raise an interesting point. Is a city like Kaifeng going to represent a significantly different experience from the "water towns" near Shanghai? Would the weather be any different? Thanks.

It's going to be hot everywhere in China in August, except in Tibet.

I know you're said you'll be in Beijing for 7 nights on business. But how many days you do really have there for sightseeing? You'll need about 4 days for that. And if your itinerary doen't have Chengde already, consider spending 2 nights there (about 4 hours from Beijing by the fastest trains) and visit the summer palace and the 8 Tibetian-buddhism temples there. It's a very interesting place.

There's a big difference between the watertowns near Shanghai, and the "central plain" cities of Xi'an, Louyang and Kaifeng. The last three are very important political and cultural cities for many dynasties between around 1st to 12th/13th century. And not far from Louyang you can visit some buddhist cave carvings, or a little further, the Shaolin Temple.

In contrast, the area of Wuxi/Suzhou/Hangzhou around Shanghai are not important politically, except for Hangzhou for a short period of time when the capital was moved there because of invasions by the Manchus and Mongols. That area "south of Yangtze" is where emperors go for pleasure. They are famous for their textile mills and other crafts (including wine and food).

So, different geography, different atmosphere.

Thanks for your thoughts, rkkwan. Do you know if there's direct overnight train service from Kaifeng through to Shaoxing? Or would we need to transfer in Shanghai or Hangzhou in the morning - assuming we decide to skip Hangzhou in favor of your suggestion of some time in Louyang and Kaifeng?

There are no direct trains from Xi'an/Louyang/Kaifeng through to Shaoxing. But there are numerous trains a day from Shanghai/Hangzhou to Shaoxing, and a few more from various points between Hangzhou and Nanjing.

Therefore, you can take basically any express sleeper towards Shanghai or Hangzhou, and then switch to one of the other trains to Shaoxing easily.

I think it was a wise choice to drop Yangshuo from your itinerary, as although it is a fabulous chill-out place, it will be too hot and sticky in August. We were there last week and loved it, but it was already warming up quite a bit. We only had 2 nights in Xi'an and found it enough. Stayed at Bell Tower Hotel for USD70 incl. b/f.

How about Mogan Mountain? Anyone checked that out? On a website sounds as though it is coolish all year round.

Never been to Mogan Shan, but it's famous for its bamboo forest. Part of "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon" is filmed in that area around the town of Anji.