Travel Agents Please Identify Yourselves!
Oct 18th, 2006, 02:53 PM
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Travel Agents Please Identify Yourselves!
It seems that those of you who earn a living from booking certain lodges should certainly make it clear when posting, either by providing your work email address (as does Julian@destinyafrica), or a signoff tag as does Melodie on the Australia Board.
It would only take a minimal effort, and then readers can be assured of where the glowing reviews are coming from: pros.
Without naming names, I have read from the same poster the name of the same country and the same lodges again and again.
This person encourages "early booking" and yet this poster earns his living by steering people to these camps.
There is nothing wrong with this, but please, there is also nothing wrong with being honest about it.
Say "I work as a professional and my professional opinion is..." Not only will you benefit from honesty and above-board helpfulness, others will benefit from knowing where the reviews are coming from.
If you do not ID yourselves, this board will end up going the way of Trip Advisor where hotel owners give discounts for glowing reviews.
Alternatively, "regular" folk can indicate that they are merely travelers.
Please keep this community honest! Not everybody knows who is a professional and who is not.
Thanks for the consideration.
Peterman
It would only take a minimal effort, and then readers can be assured of where the glowing reviews are coming from: pros.
Without naming names, I have read from the same poster the name of the same country and the same lodges again and again.
This person encourages "early booking" and yet this poster earns his living by steering people to these camps.
There is nothing wrong with this, but please, there is also nothing wrong with being honest about it.
Say "I work as a professional and my professional opinion is..." Not only will you benefit from honesty and above-board helpfulness, others will benefit from knowing where the reviews are coming from.
If you do not ID yourselves, this board will end up going the way of Trip Advisor where hotel owners give discounts for glowing reviews.
Alternatively, "regular" folk can indicate that they are merely travelers.
Please keep this community honest! Not everybody knows who is a professional and who is not.
Thanks for the consideration.
Peterman
Oct 18th, 2006, 03:48 PM
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Peterman,
That is a great idea and, yes, Julian is very considerate for identifying himself.
I do find you a bit pushy, however, for a newbie. Just wondering, but did you volunteer to be the hall monitor in grade school?
That is a great idea and, yes, Julian is very considerate for identifying himself.
I do find you a bit pushy, however, for a newbie. Just wondering, but did you volunteer to be the hall monitor in grade school?
Oct 18th, 2006, 03:55 PM
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As far as any agent advising early bookings, this is just common sense whether going to Tanzania, Kenya, South Africa, Botswana, Zambia or even the high profile lodges of South Africa.
You are fooling yourself if you think that everyone in the industry is going to step forward just because you demand that they do so. I have always been forthright about my position and some like Sandi (Africa Serendipity), Eben (Kiliwarrior) and myself (name withheld but you mentioned it in your original post--possibly without knowing it--) have been active on the forum, often for years before starting our own operation.
Why is it that posters like yourself come on and make a bunch of noise but never stick around to add anything constructive to the forum? Why don't you go out and share some information about some of the camps you have been and give us some worthwhile information? Do something...anything...to add to this forum instead of just huffing and puffing and it will be greatly appreciated by all.
You are fooling yourself if you think that everyone in the industry is going to step forward just because you demand that they do so. I have always been forthright about my position and some like Sandi (Africa Serendipity), Eben (Kiliwarrior) and myself (name withheld but you mentioned it in your original post--possibly without knowing it--) have been active on the forum, often for years before starting our own operation.
Why is it that posters like yourself come on and make a bunch of noise but never stick around to add anything constructive to the forum? Why don't you go out and share some information about some of the camps you have been and give us some worthwhile information? Do something...anything...to add to this forum instead of just huffing and puffing and it will be greatly appreciated by all.
Oct 18th, 2006, 06:18 PM
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First let me say, I am not a travel agent, just a tourist.
Peterman, the travel agents and tour operators here are in an awkward position. They are not really supposed to mention their company as it could be construed as advertising, which Fodors does not allow. So they are actually doing it right.
If someone tries to come on and promote their website or sell something (and this is usually someone who has never contributed to the board), Fodors will erase their post and cut off their account. It's not perfect here, but it's pretty good. And it's free.
The best way to know who is who here is to read for a while and post. Do the pros here benefit from being here? I'm sure they do. But we also benefit from their experience. I've gotten a lot of helpful advice which they are not personally benefiting from. That said, I do want to warn people that once we had someone here who would give advice, sometimes in private email. This person would push to get your dates of your trip and full name. Then they tried to get a commission from the camps and lodges, claiming they had sent you there. For this reason, I suggest people never post their exact dates and think twice before you reveal your name.
Peterman, the travel agents and tour operators here are in an awkward position. They are not really supposed to mention their company as it could be construed as advertising, which Fodors does not allow. So they are actually doing it right.
If someone tries to come on and promote their website or sell something (and this is usually someone who has never contributed to the board), Fodors will erase their post and cut off their account. It's not perfect here, but it's pretty good. And it's free.
The best way to know who is who here is to read for a while and post. Do the pros here benefit from being here? I'm sure they do. But we also benefit from their experience. I've gotten a lot of helpful advice which they are not personally benefiting from. That said, I do want to warn people that once we had someone here who would give advice, sometimes in private email. This person would push to get your dates of your trip and full name. Then they tried to get a commission from the camps and lodges, claiming they had sent you there. For this reason, I suggest people never post their exact dates and think twice before you reveal your name.
Oct 18th, 2006, 06:49 PM
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Rocco was on Fodor's long before he became an agent and he was just as enthusiastic about the camps/lodges he had researched then, as a tourist, as he is about the camps/lodges he researches now, as an agent. He helped put my first trip to Africa together when he was not an agent, my second and third trips as an agent and I trust his knowledge, research, information and passion for Africa 100%. I think above all, Rocco wants people to enjoy Africa as much as he does, whether you are a poster here or a client.
Oct 18th, 2006, 07:29 PM
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Peterman,
I'm a bit sensitive to this issue because I've been accused on these boards of being an agent trying to solicit business. I answered a question about the Patagonian Andes and posted a link to some pictures from my trip. Somebody posted afterwards and stated that I was an agent and that my link was to a commercial site. I was a bit shocked. The person who accused me of deception had clearly not visited the site I posted, otherwise, they would have seen that my site was just my personal photos. I pointed this out, and the person had to retract their statement, but what if I didn't have a means of proving I wasn't an agent?
It's easy to accuse somebody of being deceptive, but be aware that you'll be nailing innocent people when you do it. And, there's no way for people to prove otherwise. I could claim to just be a tourist, but if you say I'm an agent, how do I prove otherwise? I find the notion that I have to identify myself and prove myself to your satisfaction if I'm going to participate on this forum to be more than a little presumptious. Nobody appointed you moderator.
Btw, you haven't identified yourself as either agent or tourist. Perhaps you're an agent who's trying to discredit competitors? Can you prove you're not?
In my experience, I have found the Fodor's Africa forum to be one of the richest sources of information on safaris in East and South Africa. The forum is far more active than others I've seen. The signal to noise ratio is excellent. I attribute this richness of content to the "professionals" who contribute on a regular basis to this forum. In general, I have not seen any of the regulars who are professionals solicit business or "advertise" a certain lodging or camp out of self-interest. I picked the operator for my Kilimanjaro climb based on a recommendation made by Eben in one of his posts. It takes a lot of disinterest to recommend a competitor.
I have also found that people who do come on this forum to advertise are pretty obvious and blatant about it. I don't think it's necessary for them to identify themselves since their posts tend to explicitly solicit business anyway. And, really, if their intent is to deceive, why would they identify themselves as agents?
I'm a bit sensitive to this issue because I've been accused on these boards of being an agent trying to solicit business. I answered a question about the Patagonian Andes and posted a link to some pictures from my trip. Somebody posted afterwards and stated that I was an agent and that my link was to a commercial site. I was a bit shocked. The person who accused me of deception had clearly not visited the site I posted, otherwise, they would have seen that my site was just my personal photos. I pointed this out, and the person had to retract their statement, but what if I didn't have a means of proving I wasn't an agent?
It's easy to accuse somebody of being deceptive, but be aware that you'll be nailing innocent people when you do it. And, there's no way for people to prove otherwise. I could claim to just be a tourist, but if you say I'm an agent, how do I prove otherwise? I find the notion that I have to identify myself and prove myself to your satisfaction if I'm going to participate on this forum to be more than a little presumptious. Nobody appointed you moderator.
Btw, you haven't identified yourself as either agent or tourist. Perhaps you're an agent who's trying to discredit competitors? Can you prove you're not?
In my experience, I have found the Fodor's Africa forum to be one of the richest sources of information on safaris in East and South Africa. The forum is far more active than others I've seen. The signal to noise ratio is excellent. I attribute this richness of content to the "professionals" who contribute on a regular basis to this forum. In general, I have not seen any of the regulars who are professionals solicit business or "advertise" a certain lodging or camp out of self-interest. I picked the operator for my Kilimanjaro climb based on a recommendation made by Eben in one of his posts. It takes a lot of disinterest to recommend a competitor.
I have also found that people who do come on this forum to advertise are pretty obvious and blatant about it. I don't think it's necessary for them to identify themselves since their posts tend to explicitly solicit business anyway. And, really, if their intent is to deceive, why would they identify themselves as agents?
Oct 18th, 2006, 07:38 PM
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I posted this on the other site and wanted to repost it here in response to Peterman:
Author: spiegelcjs
Date: 10/18/2006, 07:16 pm
Speaking only for myself whether or not the person posting the information is an agent or not makes no difference to me. They are not saying ' I am so and so and my agency name is." If I am looking for information and someone in the know has information I want to hear about it. I can't quite figure out how passing on new information becomes a conflict of interest. For my part, those that are agents and those who are not, have been extremely helpful in planning my trip. Then it is up to me to select with whom I ultimately work.
Also I have friends who are TA's and they never go anywhere for free. They may go on familiarization tours and pay less, but never free.
Rocco and the others on this board have been more than helpful and we have all benefited from their knowledge.
Author: spiegelcjs
Date: 10/18/2006, 07:16 pm
Speaking only for myself whether or not the person posting the information is an agent or not makes no difference to me. They are not saying ' I am so and so and my agency name is." If I am looking for information and someone in the know has information I want to hear about it. I can't quite figure out how passing on new information becomes a conflict of interest. For my part, those that are agents and those who are not, have been extremely helpful in planning my trip. Then it is up to me to select with whom I ultimately work.
Also I have friends who are TA's and they never go anywhere for free. They may go on familiarization tours and pay less, but never free.
Rocco and the others on this board have been more than helpful and we have all benefited from their knowledge.
Oct 18th, 2006, 09:19 PM
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One more thing.....I dont have to state in every post that i'm a mere traveller/tourist. I think, over the course of my presence (almost a year) here on fodors, the regulars know and recognize each other.
As a regular traveller/tourist, i have my favourite camps....and i make it a point to be vocal about my feelings, out of sheer enthusiasm........and have no hesitation in making the same recommendations to fellow travellers....
Hari
As a regular traveller/tourist, i have my favourite camps....and i make it a point to be vocal about my feelings, out of sheer enthusiasm........and have no hesitation in making the same recommendations to fellow travellers....
Hari
Oct 18th, 2006, 09:42 PM
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We should not give Peterman the satisfaction that he actually started something here. If we all ignor him, maybe he will go away.
I love this board, I put together my Kenya trip next year from reading and asking for advice on this board. I received great advices, who cares if the advice comes from a professional or a non-professional.
Pat
I love this board, I put together my Kenya trip next year from reading and asking for advice on this board. I received great advices, who cares if the advice comes from a professional or a non-professional.
Pat
Oct 18th, 2006, 09:58 PM
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Peterman: Everyone will never be pleased on this issue. You are not the first who has requested Agent disclosure on this board but I have seen just as many people jump on the other side accusing such disclosure as coy advertising. Either way someone is upset.
The fact is this is a strong community and there are numerous agents who are very professional and a huge part of the great information available here. Those that appreciate their knowledge are able to contact them directly and of course everyone is free to never use their services. Agents or other businesses that do cross the line are quickly shouted down around here and disappear.
For the record I am not an agent but I am a wildlife biologist and occasionally I serve as an expert leader of trips. When I give an opinion on wild dog behavior I do not consider it to be advertising, I am simply sharing knowledge so other interested people may benefit. I consider an Agent sharing their knowledge of a property to be no different and once I read enough posts to know their style I can decide how that meets my needs as a traveller.
The fact is this is a strong community and there are numerous agents who are very professional and a huge part of the great information available here. Those that appreciate their knowledge are able to contact them directly and of course everyone is free to never use their services. Agents or other businesses that do cross the line are quickly shouted down around here and disappear.
For the record I am not an agent but I am a wildlife biologist and occasionally I serve as an expert leader of trips. When I give an opinion on wild dog behavior I do not consider it to be advertising, I am simply sharing knowledge so other interested people may benefit. I consider an Agent sharing their knowledge of a property to be no different and once I read enough posts to know their style I can decide how that meets my needs as a traveller.
Oct 19th, 2006, 12:05 AM
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Peterman, I know where you're coming from. In this kind of forum, it's inevitable and understandable that suspicions like yours will arise. But the very best advice you can absorb is that given by PredatorBiologist. Fodor's rules, for the most part, protect the 'newbies'. Those who have participated for a while, like me, soon learn to judge by the patterns of posting whose advice should be taken with a grain of salt.
John
John
Oct 19th, 2006, 04:10 AM
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I for one am glad the operators post on this site. They give great info and not once have I seen anyone pushing their services. Just the opposite. Many times they will be responding to posts and someone will ask who is a good operator to use. They don't answer and have to rely on others to recommend someone.
I have only been coming here for about 4 months now. But, by reading a lot of the posts, it only took about a week before I figured out who was an operator. It was pretty easy by reading other peoples posts.
Please keep coming and posting. Who knows better than you guys!
enjoy,
Duane
I have only been coming here for about 4 months now. But, by reading a lot of the posts, it only took about a week before I figured out who was an operator. It was pretty easy by reading other peoples posts.
Please keep coming and posting. Who knows better than you guys!
enjoy,
Duane
Oct 19th, 2006, 04:30 AM
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Mr.Peterman,
I agree with the other posters and do want to reiterate Duane's comment stating that we do hope you remain a poster here.
Unlike other forums, this one does encourage opinions from all sides of the fence. We may not always agree but still respect each others opinions.
As for the promoters and trolls, you can usually sniff them out quite easily. If a posted article such as the questionable one on Zimb. does not have a web link or the stated origin it is usually ignored. Thus, it doesn't usually seem to be a problem here. In fact, those who use these unethical practices would most likely be hurt their business.
Sherry
I agree with the other posters and do want to reiterate Duane's comment stating that we do hope you remain a poster here.
Unlike other forums, this one does encourage opinions from all sides of the fence. We may not always agree but still respect each others opinions.
As for the promoters and trolls, you can usually sniff them out quite easily. If a posted article such as the questionable one on Zimb. does not have a web link or the stated origin it is usually ignored. Thus, it doesn't usually seem to be a problem here. In fact, those who use these unethical practices would most likely be hurt their business.
Sherry
Oct 19th, 2006, 06:57 AM
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While I think we can generally discern the agents from the non-agents, I do find some of the posts from agents problematic, particularly when they post a trip report and do not divulge that they paid less (sometimes much less) than rack rate, which can color their impressions. I have asked in several of those threads about the "educational rates," but those questions were ignored.
Oct 19th, 2006, 07:03 AM
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Very commendable responses by all. I began using the forum about a year and a half ago and was fairly quickly able to determine who the agents here are - not because of their disclosing such information, but by being a regular reader, and sometime poster in this community where we do get to know one another and benefit from each other's experiences and stories. I've never felt that any of the agents who post here have done anything to infringe on the Forum posting rules. They (as we all do) share the valuable information that we need to develop safari intineraries that we hope will create lifelong memories.
Oct 19th, 2006, 09:07 AM
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Difficult issue, good arguments on both sides. But I side with the consensus that it is best to not require disclosure. I view that as self promoting advertising. I really enjoy the expertise of the pros on this forum, and I believe disclosure causes more problems than any advantage.
Oct 19th, 2006, 10:16 AM
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I agree that much information is disclosed to all who frequent this blog. I have used several operators to plan my safaris and received much advice on camps from both regular tourists as well as pros. If the pro is unprofessional, he or she will be quickly discovered!
Oct 19th, 2006, 12:33 PM
#20
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thit-cho -
I can assure you, with few exceptions, most agents, operators, outfitters or planners, don't travel for free. The properties actually have special rates for such individuals.
There are also scheduled FAM trips at very attractive rates (land only in-country, agent responsible for their own international air), but which I, for one, avoid. Why? Because it's a bunch of one-nighters*, and not enough time to have more than 3/meals, and do 2/game drives, if lucky. Insufficient time to meet and talk with management, tour the property, speak with the guides, check out the kitchen, type of vehicles, etc. etc. FAM trips are a kind of tempting appetizer for those who have never been and for any of these individuals, the opportunity for a "trip somewhere" which many don't normally have the time for.
*though lately some are actually offering a 2/nt stay somewhere in a 6/day trip.
For those of us fortunate enough to be able to set our own schedule, we prefer at minimum 2/nts at a given property (if you ask for a third you can get hit with a higher price); still pay daily park fees, inter- and intra-country air fares. Also have to tip our guides, trackers, porters, waiters, chefs, housekeeping, etc. etc.
So, while we don't pay rack rates, it's not for free; often have to travel in the off-/low-season to have availability.
If a property doesn't meet the criteria for recommendation, I'd have no issue, regardless what I paid, in saying so.
I can assure you, with few exceptions, most agents, operators, outfitters or planners, don't travel for free. The properties actually have special rates for such individuals.
There are also scheduled FAM trips at very attractive rates (land only in-country, agent responsible for their own international air), but which I, for one, avoid. Why? Because it's a bunch of one-nighters*, and not enough time to have more than 3/meals, and do 2/game drives, if lucky. Insufficient time to meet and talk with management, tour the property, speak with the guides, check out the kitchen, type of vehicles, etc. etc. FAM trips are a kind of tempting appetizer for those who have never been and for any of these individuals, the opportunity for a "trip somewhere" which many don't normally have the time for.
*though lately some are actually offering a 2/nt stay somewhere in a 6/day trip.
For those of us fortunate enough to be able to set our own schedule, we prefer at minimum 2/nts at a given property (if you ask for a third you can get hit with a higher price); still pay daily park fees, inter- and intra-country air fares. Also have to tip our guides, trackers, porters, waiters, chefs, housekeeping, etc. etc.
So, while we don't pay rack rates, it's not for free; often have to travel in the off-/low-season to have availability.
If a property doesn't meet the criteria for recommendation, I'd have no issue, regardless what I paid, in saying so.
