climbhighsleeplow

Well, Timbavati got what they wanted and hunting has just started this season.

If you hear gun shots while visiting Timbavati, Klaserie, Umbabat or even the surrounding reserves you are not going crazy.

http://www.news24.com/News24/South_A...692656,00.html

For a different perspective:

http://www.mg.co.za/articlePage.aspx...ar/earth_news/

Roccco

I wonder what percentage of Kruger National Park (and the private concessions within it) are set aside for hunting?

Here is an article, about TANZANIA, that states the number of hunting expeditions to Tanzania has continued to grow at a staggering rate over the last 10 years, and now, 85 percent of game-controlled areas and communal lands are designated for hunting, while the remaining 15 percent are open to ecotourism operations.

http://www.maasaierc.org/loliondo/consumptive.html

climbhighsleeplow

The game-controlled areas in Tanzania are problemmatic but at least well-defined. Granted, gray areas are on the increase (around Grumeti/Ikoma and Tarangire for example).

In the Kruger area, hunting on the concessions we all know and love come as a bit of a surprise.

In Timbavati itself, it is causing major problems as some of the lodges within Timbavati are clearly against hunting, but they cannot do much. It will be impossible for their guests to escape the occasional noise from gun shots. And there is the outside chance that unsuspecting guests may come across wounded animals on their game drives.

Not my idea of a relaxing safari.

My worst nightmare is sharing my safari concession with Ted Nugent and crew. In Tanzania, this won't happen.

Roccco

climbhighsleeplow,

Isn't it in the least disconcerting that "Ted Nugent and crew" have access to 85% of the Tanzanian game areas, while ecotourists only have access to 15% of the overall area?

I would guess that the area you are talking about within Kruger National Park represents less than 5% of the overall park. 5% vs. 85%...not even close.

Although I don't have the stats, I would find it hard to imagine that more than about 25% of South Africa's overall wildlife areas are for hunting, but even if the number were 28%, for example, this would still be 2/3 less than Tanzania.

Are you saying that as long as you cannot see it or hear it, that the hunting in Tanzania, which is the most prolific of any country in Africa, does not upset you?

http://www.a1agifts.com/images/29586monkeys2.jpg

sandi

Roccco - It upsets just about every eco-tourism outfitter in Tanzania; and I'm certain in other countries where eco-tourism looses out to hunting. But these outfitters have no vote in this, even though many have expresses their disapproval and dislike.

The governments make the decisions and that's that. Nothing new there. They make decisions here too, that many oppose... nothing new here!!! And life (and death) go on!

climbhighsleeplow

You are a hoot, Rocco! For a brief moment I thought you were serious, but then I remembered your past posts..!

Roccco

climbhighsleeplow,

I am against hunting, no matter the country it takes place in. You, on the other hand, seem quick to cast stones against South African hunting, while conveniently overlooking the hunting that goes on in your territory...Tanzania.

You cannot even begin to compare the limited hunting that will go on in the areas you discussed in South Africa to the hunting that occurs in Tanzania. Tanzania, by far, is the #1 hunting destination in all of Africa.

Let me know when you find a huge South African compound built (and leased to the United Arab Emirates) in the middle of migratory routes, as Liz Frazier came across while in Tanzania.

All trophy hunting is wrong, whether it takes place in Tanzania or South Africa. In a prior thread you went as far as stating that Timbavati photo safari lodges should be boycotted.

Do you believe that photo safari lodges operating right outside of Tarangire, Lake Manyara and Serengeti should also be banned? And here is a good one...hunting safaris go on around Kiliminjaro so should visitors also ban climbing Mt. Kiliminjaro and the operators who operate climbing expeditions, Climb High Sleep Low? What do you think?

climbhighsleeplow

OK, Rocco is indeed serious! But completely off the point or just being argumentive.

My native South African government & parks are not happy with Timbavati. If you bother to read the SANParks web site you will know this.

For years, there was a gentleman's agreement that when the fences come down around Kruger, all the concessions must play fair.

In a majority vote, Timbavati owners decided to allow hunting, to the dismay of RSA government, parks, and minority lodge owners. In a contained area such as Kruger & environment, nobody knows yet what the impact will be in the short & long term.

To their credit, the government & parks fought back but legally they no legs to stand on. Again, to their credit the government obeyed the court (where else in Africa will this happen?)

Hopefully, the animals will learn quick and simply avoid Timbavati and nearby concessions. Bad news for the safari guests of lodge owners who are against hunting. Some invested their life savings in properties in Timbavati and they are devastated. The greater concession is not big enough to completely separate the hunting & safari experience.

In Tanzania, however, the areas in question are big enough to separate the hunting & safari experience. As a tourist, you have to go way off the beaten track to encounter hunters.

Unlike small Timbavati where your game drive may unknowingly be a scouting trip for the hunting operation, or worse should you see or hear a hunt in progess.

As for the bigger question about hunting in general and the bad things that are happening in wildlife countries - that's a topic for a different thread.

sundowner

I think you would be surprised at how much hunting goes on in South Africa. In 2003 I was driven the 5 or so hours from Johannesburg to Mashatu (across the border in Botswana) and not far out of the towns the game farms started. Farm after farm and they were all for hunting. And that was just on the main road. I'm sure the farms extended as far as the land would sustain the game.

I read this site www.environment.gov.za/.../NBSAP%20stocktaking_ Sustainable%20use_Annex%204%20Wildlife_Mar%2004.do c They gathered their data from several sources including The Professional Hunting Association of South Africa (PHASA). The term covered in the survey is Nov 2001 to 31 Oct 2002.

It says that there are now about 9,000 commercial game-fenced farms in South Africa, covering an area of more than 17 million hectares.

It also tells that the live game industry (auctions)has shown substantial growth from 8292 animals sold in 1991 (R9 million) to 20022 animals sold in 2002 worth R105 million.

Totalrevenue from daily rates and, trophies and taxidermy – US$ 92 Million.