Agent won't book Kwando
May 30th, 2007, 07:25 AM
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Agent won't book Kwando
I just got back from my first trip to Africa and like many of you, caught the bug. I want to go back and am thinking of a Jun 2009 trip. After talking to my mom, she mentioned taking the whole family which includes kids aged 9, 11, 14, & 16 (in 2009).
So I did some research on kid-friendly safaris to Botswana and saw the "family safari" program mentioned on the Kwando website. It looked great, especially the Jr. Guide Program which would perfect for my two nephews. ANd heck, even I want to do the spoor casting....
Wilderness Safari's website came across to me as very non kid friendly.
So, I inquired to my agent (I used them for my recent Africa trip) about this trip with some days out on the Pans at San Camp (ATV-ing and walks with bushmen) plus 3-4 days each at Kwando's Lebala and Kwara.
The response from my agent shocked me:
"Sounds great however please note we will not book Kwando as they injured one of our guests - a 70 year old woman when racing off road and drove into a hole - total disregard for the clients in the back of the vehicle when the guide got excited) and have exhibited other dangerous behaviors over the years (some of which impact on the animals such as driving right up to - literally within 3 feet of lions on a kill with quad bikes...also they arrange hunting on their concessions (which we do not like to support).
Wilderness Safaris would be able to accommodate your group including children 8 years and over."
The whole hunting issue is rather grey in my book and I had previously read one of the threads here that discussed the hunting issue in great length. I don't personally like trophy hunting, but I can certainly see the argument made for it as long as controls are tight and hunters are watchdogged.
But I just don't know what to make of the rest of it.
I would be interested in hearing from those who have been to the Kwando camps and your experiences. How do you think they would be with kids and a 70+ year old grandmother? Can I enquire and book directly with Kwando or do I need to go through a travel agent?
At this point I am not sure whether to trust my agent and book elsewhere or trust the Kwando fans/Kwando website and find a new agent.
Your thoughts are appreciated.
So I did some research on kid-friendly safaris to Botswana and saw the "family safari" program mentioned on the Kwando website. It looked great, especially the Jr. Guide Program which would perfect for my two nephews. ANd heck, even I want to do the spoor casting....
Wilderness Safari's website came across to me as very non kid friendly.
So, I inquired to my agent (I used them for my recent Africa trip) about this trip with some days out on the Pans at San Camp (ATV-ing and walks with bushmen) plus 3-4 days each at Kwando's Lebala and Kwara.
The response from my agent shocked me:
"Sounds great however please note we will not book Kwando as they injured one of our guests - a 70 year old woman when racing off road and drove into a hole - total disregard for the clients in the back of the vehicle when the guide got excited) and have exhibited other dangerous behaviors over the years (some of which impact on the animals such as driving right up to - literally within 3 feet of lions on a kill with quad bikes...also they arrange hunting on their concessions (which we do not like to support).
Wilderness Safaris would be able to accommodate your group including children 8 years and over."
The whole hunting issue is rather grey in my book and I had previously read one of the threads here that discussed the hunting issue in great length. I don't personally like trophy hunting, but I can certainly see the argument made for it as long as controls are tight and hunters are watchdogged.
But I just don't know what to make of the rest of it.
I would be interested in hearing from those who have been to the Kwando camps and your experiences. How do you think they would be with kids and a 70+ year old grandmother? Can I enquire and book directly with Kwando or do I need to go through a travel agent?
At this point I am not sure whether to trust my agent and book elsewhere or trust the Kwando fans/Kwando website and find a new agent.
Your thoughts are appreciated.
May 30th, 2007, 07:53 AM
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Frankly I have visited Kwando often and find their attitude to guests to be just fine. I rich combination of empathy for the guest and a determination to find good game and stick with it when the action gets hot.
I have NOT taken my family there as I can't afford it, however was aware of a family that crossed multiple generations when I was last there, so believe that their competancy in catering to 70 and 7 year olds at the same time is just fine.
They generally do not deal with the public and have preferred agents in the USA. The agent I used was a referral by their north American office, where I spoke with Warren. Details found on their website.
May 30th, 2007, 08:29 AM
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I think that situation could happen at any camp. My experience is that guides will tell you they are going to go fast and to hold on. Now if they went too fast over rough ground, then they probably should be more careful, no matter how good the sighting. I've got to think given the right size of hole, that a vehicle could turn over, and that would not be good.
I had one issue with Kwando being IMO insensitive in the handling of a young Leopard sighting, but the comments of many others have me convinced this was an abberation.
I had one issue with Kwando being IMO insensitive in the handling of a young Leopard sighting, but the comments of many others have me convinced this was an abberation.
May 30th, 2007, 08:37 AM
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This is a tough one.
Their impression of Kwando, it would seem to me, on the back of feedback here, is not in line with that of most customers/ operators/ agents.
But then again, we often say that we want to find and deal with agents who can and do have enough experience to make recommendations both positive and negative based on what they have experienced and witnessed.
That's, on the surface, just what this agent is doing. Whether or not we agree with his assessment of Kwando is another matter.
On the other hand, there's the possibility that they are simply looking for a way of steering you away from Kwando and towards WS because of better commissions. I don't know. It's been known to happen.
If you are otherwise happy with this agent but are sure you want Kwando, ask them if they are refusing to book it or simply advising against it but will book it if that's what you want.
If they won't book it and you feel that their assessment is inaccurate or not relevant, find another agent.
Their impression of Kwando, it would seem to me, on the back of feedback here, is not in line with that of most customers/ operators/ agents.
But then again, we often say that we want to find and deal with agents who can and do have enough experience to make recommendations both positive and negative based on what they have experienced and witnessed.
That's, on the surface, just what this agent is doing. Whether or not we agree with his assessment of Kwando is another matter.
On the other hand, there's the possibility that they are simply looking for a way of steering you away from Kwando and towards WS because of better commissions. I don't know. It's been known to happen.
If you are otherwise happy with this agent but are sure you want Kwando, ask them if they are refusing to book it or simply advising against it but will book it if that's what you want.
If they won't book it and you feel that their assessment is inaccurate or not relevant, find another agent.
May 30th, 2007, 09:09 AM
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It seems there are many Agents who only sell WS and a few who only sell Kwando which is a real shame as you never know if you are getting the best advice there.
Kwando experience is fantastic and I would not hesitate to go to those camps. I have been high speed off road following predators at Kwando and WS camps -- anyone can have the misfortune of hitting an aardvark hole hidden under the grass. Guides warn you when the ride is going to kick into high gear and its important to restrain yourself. That said your group would appear to be large enough that you will probably not be sharing vehicles with other guests which puts you in charge and if you want only smooth driving just instruct the guide. The thrill of off-road driving is one of the risks assumed on safari and such an incident can happen with any camp. Individual guides are going to determine this part of the experience and Kwando has some of the best guides around. You can get some recommendations here that will virtually ensure the guide is not an issue.
Kwando experience is fantastic and I would not hesitate to go to those camps. I have been high speed off road following predators at Kwando and WS camps -- anyone can have the misfortune of hitting an aardvark hole hidden under the grass. Guides warn you when the ride is going to kick into high gear and its important to restrain yourself. That said your group would appear to be large enough that you will probably not be sharing vehicles with other guests which puts you in charge and if you want only smooth driving just instruct the guide. The thrill of off-road driving is one of the risks assumed on safari and such an incident can happen with any camp. Individual guides are going to determine this part of the experience and Kwando has some of the best guides around. You can get some recommendations here that will virtually ensure the guide is not an issue.
May 30th, 2007, 09:28 AM
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It's too bad Hari is away as he is the resident expert on Kwando. After having just returned from three of their camps in March, I would disagree with your travel agent. I never once noticed a disregard for safety nor did I feel they were encroaching on the animals in a negative way. On the contrary...while we watched three cheetah brothers stalk an impala we stayed quite far away as to not spook the impala so the cheetahs would miss their dinner. And we stayed only a short time at the kill so our presence wouldn't attract other predators who would steal it from them. And I don't know where they're getting this "quad bike" story from. I never saw quad bikes once while we were there and who would be foolish enough to ride up to a pride of lions feeding on a kill on a bike? Hello?!
I think your agent may be confused with another company Kwando Safaris out of South Africa, which is a hunting safari company. They do not operate in the Kwando concession and we were told that hunting had not been allowed in the Kwando concession for some time (10+ years).
You are not able to book directly with Kwando but there are recommended agents on their website.
Although they are pricey, I would highly recommend Kwando as we had a fantastic time.
I think your agent may be confused with another company Kwando Safaris out of South Africa, which is a hunting safari company. They do not operate in the Kwando concession and we were told that hunting had not been allowed in the Kwando concession for some time (10+ years).
You are not able to book directly with Kwando but there are recommended agents on their website.
Although they are pricey, I would highly recommend Kwando as we had a fantastic time.
May 30th, 2007, 09:39 AM
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buzztechie
I will be going to Kwando for the fourth straaight year.
Yes, I have encountered high speed driving in rough terrain, but always with a warning!
The incident with quadbikes reported by your travel agent,was part of the Mad mike and Mark series and is not something they would ever do with guests. I find that they are very cautious around dangerous animals and especially elephants.
Back in 2004 I was at Lebala when a family with kids had Lisa as their specialist guide. From what I could see she was doing a tremendous job with the kids, not only in the bush but also back in camp entertaining them at dinner etc.
I would suggest that you find a different travel agent and go to Kwando
Michael
I will be going to Kwando for the fourth straaight year.
Yes, I have encountered high speed driving in rough terrain, but always with a warning!
The incident with quadbikes reported by your travel agent,was part of the Mad mike and Mark series and is not something they would ever do with guests. I find that they are very cautious around dangerous animals and especially elephants.
Back in 2004 I was at Lebala when a family with kids had Lisa as their specialist guide. From what I could see she was doing a tremendous job with the kids, not only in the bush but also back in camp entertaining them at dinner etc.
I would suggest that you find a different travel agent and go to Kwando
Michael
May 30th, 2007, 10:20 AM
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As being a regular visitor to Botswana , I can't say a bad word either of Kwando or Wilderness Safaris.
To my personal opinion the guides I worked with at Kwando, weren't taking chances if the situation was potentially dangerous like everyone who consider himself a guide wouldn't.
Like others stated it's always riskfull to drive at high speed (and if you don't want to) just tell your guide - it can be a bit of a problem if other people in the car want to and you don't want to - but if you really feel uncomfortable about it, don't hesitate to speak up.
Like Michael stated that quad bike story must be something to do with Mad Mike and Mark in the past.
Lisa and Charles are really good with the kids, so my advice is to find another agent that books a stay at the Kwando camps for you.
So here is a list of agents they work with: http://www.kwando.com/content/view/43/44/.
Best regards,
Johan
To my personal opinion the guides I worked with at Kwando, weren't taking chances if the situation was potentially dangerous like everyone who consider himself a guide wouldn't.
Like others stated it's always riskfull to drive at high speed (and if you don't want to) just tell your guide - it can be a bit of a problem if other people in the car want to and you don't want to - but if you really feel uncomfortable about it, don't hesitate to speak up.
Like Michael stated that quad bike story must be something to do with Mad Mike and Mark in the past.
Lisa and Charles are really good with the kids, so my advice is to find another agent that books a stay at the Kwando camps for you.
So here is a list of agents they work with: http://www.kwando.com/content/view/43/44/.
Best regards,
Johan
May 30th, 2007, 11:06 AM
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Kwando definitely has probably the best family orientated experience to offer in Botswana. They have gone to enormous effort to make it special.
This means that families have their own private vehicle with their own guide and tracker who will look after them both on game drive and in camp.
They also assign staff to handle the children while in camp to allow the parents to get a break as well.
The programs are different for each family based on the ages, sexes and interests of the children.
We arranged our bookings through Greenlife (www.e-gnu.com) who arrange specialty family safaris.
This means that families have their own private vehicle with their own guide and tracker who will look after them both on game drive and in camp.
They also assign staff to handle the children while in camp to allow the parents to get a break as well.
The programs are different for each family based on the ages, sexes and interests of the children.
We arranged our bookings through Greenlife (www.e-gnu.com) who arrange specialty family safaris.
May 30th, 2007, 11:25 AM
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Let me add my piece on this. I was just at all of the Kwando camps in February and had an amazing time. I enjoyed myself more there, and had better game viewing (understanding luck of the draw) than I did at the A & K Sanctuary Lodges. I would highly recommend Kwando, and am already planning a return safari probably in the fall to Kwando. As for families, I have some friends who are not part of this board, but who went there last month with their 12 and 14 y/o based upon my suggestion. They had an awesome time with "Doctor", one of the family private guides.
Many travel companies work off of escalating commision structures, hence the more WS for example they sell, the better their overall commision. Not saying this is the case, but who knows...
Many travel companies work off of escalating commision structures, hence the more WS for example they sell, the better their overall commision. Not saying this is the case, but who knows...
May 30th, 2007, 11:40 AM
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I agree that Kwando looks way more family friendly, although I think Africa as a whole, and safaris in particular are by definition family friendly. How could a kid NOT have fun?!
Buzztechie, do you think your family safari will be at all like your WS one that sounded so fun? Do you want it to be? What are your criteria for a fabulous trip? I would love to blow my kids' minds with sleeping under the stars, ATV rides, and San rock/paper scissors.
Lifetime, you have mentioned e-gnu before - I assume that you liked them?
Buzztechie, do you think your family safari will be at all like your WS one that sounded so fun? Do you want it to be? What are your criteria for a fabulous trip? I would love to blow my kids' minds with sleeping under the stars, ATV rides, and San rock/paper scissors.
Lifetime, you have mentioned e-gnu before - I assume that you liked them?
May 30th, 2007, 01:11 PM
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I appreciate all your feedback and will pretty much be looking for a new agent. After reading all the good things folks have said about Kwando here, I just couldn't believe what this agent was saying.
Momliz - The family safari will probably not be a mobile one. Maybe a partial mobile, but not a full one like we did. Although I liked the mobile, I don't think kids in tents without ensuite bathrooms is a good or safe idea. Heck, I was scared to leave my tent at night to hit the loo and I am over 30. I wouldn't want to put a kid of 9 or 11 in that position.
And yes, I want to blow the kids minds with meerkats, ATV-ing, walks with the bushmen, elles and impalas, and getting drenched at Victoria Falls. My two nephews are pretty ourdoor types who bowhunt with their dad and have their own kayaks, so I think the ATVs and bushmen walks will be great for them. My youngest niece is a girly girl but she is very smart & mature for her age, a huge bookworm, and loves to learn. She has been traveling on our family trips since she was a baby so she travels pretty easily. My only worry would be the oldest niece. She is the polar opposite of the other three and after a week in NYC with me, I was so glad to put her on the airplane home. One word... apathy!
The initial plan was/is:
3 night San Camp (Meerkats, visiting a local farm, walks with bushman, & ATV on the pans)
3 nights Kwando Kwara (water camp with mokoros and boating)
3-4 nights Kwando Lebala (game drives with possible predator and wild dog sightings).
2 nights Victoria Falls (falls tour & possible rafting)
San Camp has an age limit of 8 which we will make and with Kwando we would have the kid specialist guide.
With the specialists guides and Kwando's Jr. Guide program, again I think the boys will have a blast. My brothers and I did a Jr Ranger Program at the Grand Tetons back when we were young and had a great time. That is one of the main reasons for considering Kwando.
Again, I appreciate all your feedback. now it off to find an agent and get a price quote on all this. Hopefully mom won't drop dead of sticker shock.
Momliz - The family safari will probably not be a mobile one. Maybe a partial mobile, but not a full one like we did. Although I liked the mobile, I don't think kids in tents without ensuite bathrooms is a good or safe idea. Heck, I was scared to leave my tent at night to hit the loo and I am over 30. I wouldn't want to put a kid of 9 or 11 in that position.
And yes, I want to blow the kids minds with meerkats, ATV-ing, walks with the bushmen, elles and impalas, and getting drenched at Victoria Falls. My two nephews are pretty ourdoor types who bowhunt with their dad and have their own kayaks, so I think the ATVs and bushmen walks will be great for them. My youngest niece is a girly girl but she is very smart & mature for her age, a huge bookworm, and loves to learn. She has been traveling on our family trips since she was a baby so she travels pretty easily. My only worry would be the oldest niece. She is the polar opposite of the other three and after a week in NYC with me, I was so glad to put her on the airplane home. One word... apathy!
The initial plan was/is:
3 night San Camp (Meerkats, visiting a local farm, walks with bushman, & ATV on the pans)
3 nights Kwando Kwara (water camp with mokoros and boating)
3-4 nights Kwando Lebala (game drives with possible predator and wild dog sightings).
2 nights Victoria Falls (falls tour & possible rafting)
San Camp has an age limit of 8 which we will make and with Kwando we would have the kid specialist guide.
With the specialists guides and Kwando's Jr. Guide program, again I think the boys will have a blast. My brothers and I did a Jr Ranger Program at the Grand Tetons back when we were young and had a great time. That is one of the main reasons for considering Kwando.
Again, I appreciate all your feedback. now it off to find an agent and get a price quote on all this. Hopefully mom won't drop dead of sticker shock.
May 30th, 2007, 03:15 PM
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buzz - I think what you are doing is awesome. It will be great for the girly niece, and maybe will shake the apathy out of the older one. My boys will be 12 and 17 and my nephew will be 17 so I think we will be OK with a mobile as well as the Kwando activities. WS has two 2/3 night mobils that would combine with a Kwando itinerary for a fabulous trip.
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