Yes, karen, and do not have any second thoughts about the strict complaint. Be proud that you have the constitution to live with principles and consequences. They are the real love you can give your child, not presents and material things.

And as karen noted, very gallantly, I think because I do think it is against the main stream especially in suburbia and urban families- is that WORK itself is often the key.

Be it in fast foods, sales, landscaping etc. the lessons learned from 14-18 are priceless. And preferably NOT with a parent's business where they can get all kinds of perks.

But, in most cases Jr. or Miss is too busy taking lessons, doing sports, or playing with hobbies to have to work for anything that they might desire.

All those things are fine in themselves but without a work ethic coupled with the endurance to finish a job until the end, the child just stays a child.

Ah, c'mon, nytraveler, that is incredibly harsh. You don't even know what happened to this poor girl, and you are assuming if SHE went off, HER PARENTS are to blame?

You see, I'm reading 2 different opinions here. If you do not let your child go travel by themselves, you are a strict parent and your children will never mature. (However, by being too strict a parent, your children may be naive and get themselves into a situation that this girl in Aruba MAY have gotten herself into.)

But, if you do let your children go on a school trip - you are then still to blame?!

I think any kid of 18 has heard ad nauseum "don't talk to strangers". They've also heard "don't drink and drive" and "Just say No". And we all know how much 18 year olds follow THOSE rules. The many stories told in this thread show just how much that kind of advice is followed.

I don't want to presume anything but just reading the little you wrote, but I assume you don't have children?

nytraveler, do you have children?
One thing many people learn who have children is that often the most important things are outside of our control. One learns not to judge unless one has walked in another's shoes. Parenting is a lesson in humility for most. Also, one hopefully learns compassion.

All we know about this girl is that she is a bright and very accomplished girl. She probably made a bad choice and has paid dearly for it. Most children survive their teen years in spite of occasional bad judgment. Most parents experience some degree of fear as they let their children drive cars and go out with friends. We know we have to let them go, so we cross our fingers or pray for their safe return. Most of us are lucky, thank goodness.

I'm in total agreement with NYTraveler these parents are off the charts!

We have two adult daughters that we raised to distrust strangers and question authority, always. We also had their protection and safety as our utmost priority in their growing years and this continues even now.

There are so many parents today, who have no clue about their children's safety or how they are raising them.

#1. Parents of killers in Columbine Colorado. No clue that their sons were building bombs in the family garage to kill students and teachers. DUH!

#2. Parents of Jon Benet Ramsay...no clue that they would not hear someone breaking into daughters room several hundred feet away from their master bedroom. DUH!

#3. Parents of Samantha Smith in Utah...no clue that a derelict hired by them to work on their house (cheap wages) would ever think of breaking into their home (no locks on doors) to kidnap their daughter for sex.

#4. Parents of an 18 YO girl who would allow her to go to an a week long unsupervised vacation in Aruba with apparently no clue that she was capable of drinking in a bar and going off with 3 strange men at 2 am in the morning! DUH! DUH! and DUH!

Give me a break!

As a former 12th grade teacher, I think a little bit of everything everyone is saying here is true. Some 18 year olds are able to handle a solo trip out of the country. Some 18 year olds are able to live on their own, sucessfully, straight out of high school.

However, as a former 12th grade teacher in the suburb that neighbors Mountain Brook, where the girl was from, I have to say that a better generalization is that they cannot handle trips of this sort on their own. One thing we keep forgetting is that this girl, responsible, well-intentioned, and sweet as is,went on a senior trip to ARUBA. I seriously doubt they were going there to take in the educational aspects of a foreign country, experience the culture, or learn about Aruba. Let's face it: they chose Aruba because it's an exotic, sexy place where the legal drinking age is 18. Almost the entire senior class went, though it was not officially school sponsored. The kids chose the chaperones they wanted to attend with them: four cool teachers. Three of them brought spouses. All of them had their trips paid for by the parents of the students. I know one of those chaperones, and he couldn't feel worse about what happened. He was back at the hotel at the time that it happened, thinking that the kids would all turn in earlier than usual that night since they had a flight home ahead of them. When they awoke the morning of the flight home, everyone thought Natalee was with someone else. It wasn't like they forgot her, hid her, or just miscounted the kids. This group of friends thought she was with that group of friends, and in the end she wasn't with any of them. The car she got in with the 3 locals was with 3 locals who'd been hanging out with them virtually all week long. She didn't REALLY know them, but in her 18-year old mind, they weren't strangers, either. This may not have been the first time that week someone rode in the car with those guys either. If it turned out okay the first few times, they probably thought nothing of it by the last night they were there.

Furthermore, Aruba had a hard time knowing what to do once she was reported missing. They aren't used to these types of crimes like we are. They don't have Amber Alerts and organized forces who know exactly how to handle a missing persons case from the get-go. In this arena, they are largely underdeveloped. Another reason why this may have beena poor choice for a destination for a bunch of reckless 18 year olds.

Now don't get me wrong. I think what happened was not just a tragic accident, but rather an accident waiting to happen. Her parents allowed her to go out of the country with minimal (at best) supervision. Sure, kids go off to college and live on their own unsupervised. But they are at least in a country they understand, in a more real-world environment they know a little better than one where pary and celebration and let-it-all-go-for-a-week are the rule of thumb. The chaperones had no plan of action for real emergencies. Most had never even been on a trip like this before, and most, including my friend, are incredibly naive about what kids this age are into. And, believe me, in that seemingly perfect little suburb, they are "into" a lot.

I think the bottom line is that we do have to teach our children, from a young age, what it means to be responsible. But we also have to set limits for them so that they aren't put in positions that they simply cannot handle. What each child can handle differs greatly from person to person, regardless of their parents. I know many people who have two children who are polar opposites when it comes to responsibility and decision making.

We can only do the best we can do, and I am sure Natalee's parents have done the best they can. But we can also learn from each other's mistakes. In my opinion, there were several huge mistakes in this case, on the part of her parents, the chaperones, and the other students, which together were a recipe for disaster. Let's just learn from this and hope--pray--our own children learn better judgement and make better decisions and stay out of harm's way. We have to model those traits first, though. It starts with us.

bamakelly, thank you, thank you, thank you, for saying what I was thinking. Well done.

Yes, to all the duh's above.

And yes, there is a hard dichotomy. And it may seem terribly, terribly judgmental and harsh. Of course, I feel for her parents and all the crying parents that I see in my job. And I have walked a 100,000 miles in a parent's and in a grandparent's shoes. It's never easy. To some it may feel easy and natural, but it has never felt that way to me. You have a job. And it is NOT to make your child happy. Your job is to give your child the gift to survive and find his/her own happiness coupled with self-worth and a value system which makes them an excellent healthy (mentally and physically) contributing citizen of their community.

It's amazing how many good people are parenting out there and don't understand or even want to comprehend the difference.

You are not your child's friend, you are their parent. It's a far deeper role, and more important role.

Of course, most of us have had a child go wrong or make wrong choices. Blame, after the fact, means little. Consequences before the fact makes a difference, and means a lot. Maybe even a LIFE to be lived itself.

But you do drastically change the "odds" when you role model and demand a work ethic, values/choices for people over things, time for others- not self activities, and consequences in possessions and use of them from all of the above. It is not easy, and it not for everyone to be a parent.

And just because you can afford to give them help for college or whatever material things they need to achieve, does not mean you MUST. Every kid is different, and some need to work physically first or maybe always- sorry!

Also those that chose not to parent should not be stigmatized for it. Believe me, they pay for all the mistakes as well. And sometimes not only with their tax dollar, but with their surrounding crime rate too.

OMG, this thread has turned cruel. I totally agree with Karens and Orcas, and think some of you have gone off the deep end.

As a frequent school chaperone, I will tell you that short of placing a piece of tape on the door so you can see in the morning if the "seal" was broken, there is no possible way to keep track of what each and every child is doing post curfew. My daughter has had a trip roommate who left the room for about an hour every night around midnight, presumably to drink or smoke. Another chaperone discovered a couple freshman at the hotel pool after it was supposedly closed. How in the world can you enforce personal responsibility on a class trip?

My kids' school searches all bags/suitcases before they leave for senior trip (to DW). I find this outrageous, and can't imagine that any kid who wants to drink, or get into some kind of trouble, wouldn't find a way, regardless of whether his bags were searched prior to leaving. As described above, kids can sneak out of a hotel room if highly motivated.

Placing "blame" on a chaperone or parent is pretty far-fetched, and I'd go so far as to say that "blame" placed on the victim is pretty useless as well. It's the luck of the draw that more kids don't suffer greater consequences for stupid, immature actions. Thankfully, most get an opportunity to learn from their mistakes.

As a parent, you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

To those that accused me of not having kids (I don;t - but have helped raise my beau's two daughters - who are both very mature, inteliigent, focussed young women despite the idiocy of their nutball mother and her neer do well toyboy husband) or of blamng parents for everything.

In fact - yes - parents have to accept a huge responsability. there are certain things not in your control (specfic diseases or mental problems or proneness to addiciton) but most kids problems don;t fall into this category.

IMHO most problems are the result of the parent's inability to understand that their job is to prepare their kids for real life - not cocoon and protect them - but teach them the skills they need to survive in the real world. And an 18 year old who would behave this way - this is the life equivalent of a high school graduate who can;t read. It is a massive failure on the parents part. Wether due to their lack of intrerest or their incompetence or their own naivete really doesn;t matter.

The problem is not that they weren;t "strict" enough and let her go - the problem is that she was - at 18 - way too immature to be left alone - and that is their failure.

IMHO all kids need jobs - from the age of 13/14 on even if just babysitting or mowing lawns - so they start to leran some hard lessons about real life. It helps them mature tremendously - and makes the rest of their life much easier. Then perhaps we wouldn;t have so many 18 yers olds without the sense of a 10 year old - or 25/6 year olds who behave like adolescents.

nytraveler, I hope you are talking to the police in Aruba as you apparently have intimate knowledge of the circumstances of this girl's disappearance. And also, if they catch the guys who did it (assuming that guys did do "it"), I hope you will be ready to testify for the defense, as it is so clear that the blame lies with bad parenting and bad judgment.

Just did some more looking on the internet on this. The two men who are being held are not the three men who took the girl from the bar. These three men say they dropped the girl off at her hotel. It is unclear if there is any connection between the two groups of men, at this point. The two men being held worked as security guards in a hotel that was closed next door to her hotel. This may have been a crime of opportunity, as are many crimes, and let us hope that we are never the victims of such crimes (and, if we are, that we are not blamed for having brought it on! Or our parents, ohmygosh!)

My 16 year old son is in New York right now with his high school choir (the students range in age from 15-19). The rules were made crystal clear before they left and the kids were welcome to back out if they found the rules too restrictive. Drug sniffing dogs were at the buses as they loaded up for the drive to the airport--fine with me. The kids' hotel room doors DO have tape across them after curfew each night--fine with me. They are not--under any circumstances--to leave the hotel after 'coming home' each night, except with one of the chaperones--fine with me. Even though it may not sound like it, the choir director is treating them like responsible young adults on this trip--they have free time to shop, etc. in various parts of New York (ALWAYS with the buddy system), for example, but with years of experience, I think she's trying to remove any temptation that would spoil the trip for any one teen, and consequently, the rest of the group. I have the highest amount of respect and trust for my son--he's an awesome young man--but he is a teenager and they sometimes do dumb things for no good and apparent reason! I remember a few instances of my own way back when...

My heart aches for the family of Natalee Holloway--our kids sometimes think they're invincible, no matter how much we lecture, advise or otherwise try to pound it into their heads that it's a big, bad world out there. Any parent of teens knows what I'm talking about, which is why, with two teenagers in our house, frequent touch-ups with L'Oreal have become the norm for this mom.

bamakelly...great post. You were able to touch on areas that others, particularly those without high school age kids might not understand.

As far as the girl in Aruba, that is simply every parent's worst nightmare. Every parent does their best to parent their kids in the way that seems right to them. No matter how they raised her, they did not deserve this outcome. And neither did she.

nytrav:

To me you don't have to have offspring to have an opinion on 18 yr olds, we were all once 18 and have experienced that age. At 19 I was living 220 miles from my hometown working for the FBI and living in D.C. Couldn't just go over to mommy's house whenever I wanted to and had to cope with the big bad world out there and getting by with my own money and luck. Great experience.

Again, nobody in life is guaranteed an easy road. A female my age (40) could get abducted no matter how safe I am in a new area. I see many times how even married couples go on vacation and are still missing - it happens to everyone. Life is just one big crap shoot and most of us are still around due to luck.

bamakelly, excellent post.

Orcas, the hotels on either side of the Occidental Allegro are the almost brand new Radisson and the Hyatt on the other side. Neither would be closed and the next hotels on either side of them would be quite a ways away from the Allegro. I wonder what their actual location was?

I think we are all kind of on the same side of the fence here, just approaching it in different ways.

Orcas -

Obviously I don;t know all the details of this story. None of us here does. But the outline is perfectly clear. This young woman was not kidnapped by force or at gunpoint. She was not stolen out of her hotel room. she was not innocently walking home and pulled into a dark alley.

She voluntarily got into a car and drove away with 3 strange men. And I stand by my point - for an 18 year old to think this is a safe thing to do shows an incredible lack of maturity (for even a 10 year old to do would show an incredible lack of maturity) and life experience.

It was her parents job to see that she knew better than this - just as it was their job to see she went to school and learned what she needs to know. They are no less responsible than if they allowed her to graduate high school without beng able to read.

Lots of people have said - teenagers are so immature - they'll do anything - they don;t kow any better. And it's true - teenagers who have no life experience are like that. It's true some people make better judgements than others - they never really do grow up. But teenagers that have more life experience are much less like that - and make fewer bad judgements. And sadly - many teenagers have to be pushed and proded to get this experience - which is the job of their parents.

Apparently these parents made no effort to give their "child" any life experience - or if they did try were remarkably unsuccesful. And that's why I lay this situation at their door - if they knew she was so immature they should not have financed the trip. And - if they didn;t know she was so immature - where have they been all these years?

Two essentials to raising kids - good parenting and good luck - unfortunately, we can't control the latter. All of us who have raised kids can think of multiple nightmares that either did occur or might have occurred because of the luck part of the equation.

nytraveler wrote:
"But the outline is perfectly clear. This young woman was not kidnapped by force or at gunpoint. She was not stolen out of her hotel room. she was not innocently walking home and pulled into a dark alley.

She voluntarily got into a car and drove away with 3 strange men."

Yeah, but you left out the part where the three men returned her to her hotel, and the two men who were arrrested were security guards working nearby. Also left out the part about the group partying with these three locals for the entire preceeding week.

Hey, anything to make your point, right?

The REST of the story:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in700050.shtml

bamakelly - I appreciate hearing your insights. There's a lot we don't know about this case yet.

nytraveler - are you telling us that at 18 or 20 you never made inappropriate decisions? If you did - could you tell us where your parents went wrong?

And, I assume, that after you helped your boyfriend raise his kids, that these kids have never made a questionable choice?

I suspected you did not have kids, b/c raising kids teaches you a lot about humility and never saying "I would never.." Perhaps you can also tell us how you helped teach your boyfriend's kids about compassion and being non-judgmental. (I can't help but cringe when I read the description of their mother. Remember, your boyfriend married her, and had several kids with her, right? Should we judge HIM on his choices?)

While I agree that I think many parents are too lenient with their kids, I try not to judge. My husband's parents were extremely permissive (to the point of almost being negligent, I believe), but he turned to be a responsible, hard-working, moral person. His brother's a doctor with 2 kids, so his parents must have done something right.

"My husband's parents were extremely permissive (to the point of almost being negligent, I believe), but he turned to be a responsible, hard-working, moral person."

Karens, I am not picking on you when I say this...

There are some children who come from the most abusive/impoverished homes (or no homes at all) and their success in life has <b>absolutely nothing to do with their parents</b> -- they are what we call <b> resilient</b> in their development.

My heart goes out to the family of that girl. This is something no one would want to happen, and the not knowing of what happened to her must be the most stressful situation the parents have ever been in.

I think BamaKelly has wonderful insight and hits a home run on many issues. The suburbs do see 'a lot'. Esp. between the time school gets out and the parents get home from work.

Hug your kids tonight and be thankful they are still around.

bamakelly, I find your response to be so hind-sightedly clear that I can't stand it.

Your friend 'could not feel worse' about what happened. They should feel bad because as a chaperone they DID NOT DO THIER JOB!!!!!

As I wrote in another string there were 40 ADULTS on this trip, not just 7. What the hell were they doing?

Surely parents need to teach their kids how to get along in this world by the time the kid is 18. But with 40 adults along with the kids they DID have the expectation that their kids would be paid attention to.

I am P.O.'d at the adults who went along on this junket for a good time but did nothing to protect the kids.

mm

I traveled with a friend when I graduated from high school (as stated in my much earlier post on this thread). I was 17, she 18. We managed to fly alone to Florida, get from Daytona to Orlando, and fly back home again without getting into any trouble. I'm not sure how it would have been had I gone with a large group of unchaperoned teens!

But you know, I don't care how well you're brought up, how many jobs you have had, how mature you think you are. Every teenager has the possibility of getting into trouble.

I grew up in a tough neighborhood. By the time I was 18, I had been exposed to (and almost talked into getting into the exposer's car), followed, beat up, dealt with a peeping tom, etc. By 18 I had eyes all around my head. I still do. I could smell a dangerous person a mile away. When I would go away with friends for spring break, I was the den mother, not allowing my friends to go off alone with guys or walk anywhere without one of us, etc.

I walked everywhere or took city buses. We weren't protected by school bus rides and parents driving us to the mall. If you wanted to shop, you took a bus downtown or walked to a neighboorhood store. I knew what streets to avoid.

I worked many jobs as a teenager, could clean the house, cut the lawn, do laundry, etc.

Despite my very good street smarts and my ability to work, I still managed to do some pretty stupid things. I cringe when I think about them!

I work on a college campus, and let me tell you, some of the 23 year olds who you would think are mature enough to go off on their own are more IMMATURE than some of the younger students.

There are no perfectly right or wrong answers to this!

mm--There have been many conflicting news reports about the number of studnts and number of chaperones on the trip. However, there were in fact only 7 adults on the trip. Because I used to teach in a neighboring system, I could actually name them all for you, as three of them are acquaintances and one is a personal friend. 4 teachers/coaches were from the middle school and high school and 3 were their spouses. 125 students went to Aruba, and 124 returned. But you can believe whatever you want to.

My post was in hindsight, and one of my points was that we must learn from these mistakes, which is always something we learn from hindsight. It's also a constructive way of dealing with a tragedy instead of a destructive and condemning one.

And, yes, my friend does feel absolutely terrible that he did not do a better job of chaperoning the students, for starters having a curfew at all, let alone enforcing one. It's the first trip of this kind that he's ever been on, much less with students, and the chaperones did a really poor job of actually chaperoning. I hope it makes you feel better that they are now painfully aware of that fact.

As I said before, I think this story is one of many mistakes, made by several groups of people. I think we'd all prefer to think that we'd have done a better job as parents, chaperones, friends, eye-witnesses, but in fact, all we can do is learn from this tragedy and others like it, place clear limits on our children according to what they can handle, and hope they use good judgement when we're not around.

seetheworld - I totally agree with you! In fact, just last night I was watching a Dr. Phil re-run, and he had on a remarkable young woman who was poised and achieved much academically, despite having lived in a nightmare of a home. I didn't catch all the details, b/c I was flipping back between Dr. Phil &amp; Game 7 of the Heat-Pistons game, but her father was abusive and at one time was homeless and living on the streets. That she could hold herself together and perform so well at school is amazing.

Many of us succeed despite our parent's mistakes, as large or as small as they may be. Despite some's self-opinion, I don't know any &quot;perfect&quot; parents, nor do I know any &quot;perfect&quot; kids. I know many whom I highly respect, and I do try to learn from them.

Hi bama,

MSNBC consistently says 40 adults while CNN reports 7. CNN also says 100 students while MSNBC just says more than 100.

As pointed out many times none of us know for sure what went on down there.

I do not mean to be critical of you and I apologize if I came off that way. However, I'm still upset with the chaperones.

I hope they find her alive.

mm

p.s. is &quot;Bama&quot; a nickname for grandma or a reference to Alabama?

mm--no problem. I just wanted to get the facts straight. The national news is reporting many conflicting stories. The local news (for once) seems to be the most correct, and since it was such a large group, many people around here know others who actually went on the trip, etc etc. The biggest problem seems to be that no one on the actual trip even really knows what happened. The local station, nbc13.com and the website al.com. seem to be the most reliable reporting (with the Birmingham News online). Everything they have posted seems to be the most accurate.

As for the chaperones, I completely understand your frustration. I would hope that is not the norm for such trips, and I would hope that this makes chaperones do a better job in the future. As a many-time school event chaperone, the whole story horrifies me on many levels.

Bama is a nickname for Alabama. :)

Horrible, tragic story on many levels. I am praying for that girl and also for the family.

Every 18- , or 9- or even 6-year old is aware that it is absolutely insane to go off with someone you don't know, let alone in a foreign country &amp; especially a beautiful teenager going off with 3 men. It would be nearly impossible to chaperone someone who was apparently determined to do whatever she wanted. My daughter is a high school teacher. On last year's senior class trip to Mexico (she did not attend), one of the girls was entertaining two young men in her room and after getting very drunk, she fell off her balcony &amp; was killed. This was a well-chaperoned trip &amp; the girl was IN HER OWN ROOM.

It is so sad, but terrible things happen when people, not just kids, don't think that they can get hurt or worse.

There is another young woman, I think 21 or 22, missing in Cleveland. She was with friends in a bar and decided to go home early by herself. No one has seen her for a week. There were 2 young women early 20's here in Columbus murder
ed. One vanished from her apartment and her body was found a couple of years later.Aanother young woman was entering her apt. with groceries when 2 men grabbed her, robbed her, locked her in the trunk of her car and set it on fire.

We have these horrible tales in the suburbs near Chicago constantly.

We just had one with a young male who was an extremely spoiled young man, Asian-American, son of two Doctors with a fabulous future assured before him. He went on a ride by himself to get some pot or pills; everyone was flabberghasted who knew him.

He was hyjacked with his expensive car, taped/bound &amp; put into his own trunk. Hr actually called 911 repeatedly and they continually played in our own news for days. But they couldn't trace him in time. He was found murdered. He was 18.

In my neck of the woods it is the very privledged youth that are making some very bad judgments.

JJ5-I agree, but I also think some young women are either extremely trusting or naive. In the case of the young woman vanishing from her apt., her neighbors heard a scream and thumping noises and never bothered to call the police. As parents perhaps the best thing we can do for our daughers is enroll them in a self-defense class, our local rec center offers them as does the Y.

As to Aruba, I wonder if they thoroughly researched the tour company before they booked them. Are they a member of the tour group association? Or, just a fly by night outfit that takes the money, books the trip and doesn't care? I have been a group leader for numerous adult and teen ski groups and we always had information what to do in case of emergencies etc. and packets of stuff to read. One tour company even gave the trip leaders 2 way radios to use. Sounds like this group of chaperones didn't have a clue. They should have had a buddy system, curfews etc. And, I would have made darn sure everyone was present and accounted for before I left for the airport. Being a chaperone/tour group leader is not fun, even with adutls you have problems. I had one adult who was staying in the same room as her boyfriend and caught him with another woman. Talk about a problem. And on ski trips you always have someone getting hurt etc. IMO, the tour company should have given the chaperones better insturction.

CNN also did a story on the dangers of vacationing and letting your guard down. They cited Jamaica, which has one of the highest murder rates in the world. Margaritaville isn't crime free any more.

&quot;&quot;As to Aruba, I wonder if they thoroughly researched the tour company before they booked them. Are they a member of the tour group association? Or, just a fly by night outfit that takes the money, books the trip and doesn't care? &quot;&quot;

I do not think the problem lies with who sold them the vacation. Everyone needs to take personal responsibility.

When I buy a car, they don't give me a speech on drunk driving, nor should they, it's my responsibility to know right from wrong and make decisions.

As a former Group Dept Manager at a wholesale tour operator I have personally booked these types of groups to Aruba in the past. The hotels have chaperone requirements ranging from 1 per room to 1 per 20 students. The travel agents that called us actually would get upset that they required them at all, parents too, they just want to send them alone...and we always have parents calling us that have no clue when flights come in, etc. They are not involved and most seem to not want to be. How the actual &quot;groups&quot; operate is their business and they are responsible. I personally would get calls from kids in their rooms at the hotel with complaints about the plumbing and I would have to say &quot;go to the front desk and tell them&quot;,...no common sense sometimes.

We have also had customers get into trouble who are adults, intoxicated usually, etc.

I personally think this could of had a better chance of being prevented with a buddy system or roll call, it seems like no one noticed or kept up with each other very well.
I do not think the problem lies with who sold them the vacation. Everyone needs to take personal responsibility.

Joan -

Of course I made some bad decisions at 18 or 20. I still make some bad decisions. Everone makes bad decisions. The point is that they were not bad decisions that were life threatening.

And it's not my parents fault if I make bad decisions now. Nor was it their fault if I made bad decisions when I was 18 or 20 - becaue I was an adult - granted a young one - but an adult by then - not a gullible child.

I'm sure I did things they would have felt were bad decisions - but I did them with my eyes open - having weighed risks and not doing anything that was putting my life in danger.

It seems to me that this child had no idea of what risks she was taking - but was simply incredibly immature and gullible.

(When I was 15 I was meeting a friend for an afternoon movie. I had gone into the city earlier to go shopping and was going to meet her in front of the Music Hall - which still showed movies then. While waiting I was approached by a very well-dressed man with a briefcase saying he thought I was pretty (I was young and attractive but - believe me - no danger to Christy Brinkly) and had the potential to be a model. He gave me his card and suggested I go with him to the agency for an interview and to have head shots taken.

I laughed at him and told him to try it out on the tourists. He said you would be amazed at how many young girls it worked on - and admitted they were recruiting them for adult films.

I would suggest that not only would this young woman have believed him - but her parents had probably never even warned her about things like this.

I did discuss this with several girlfriends at dinner years later - and almost all said the same had happened to them - if not the we think you can be an actress variation.

Every parent needs to teach their daughters about this stuff - and the realities involved in becoming a model, actress or singer - but half the time I think the parents are as gullible as the girls.)

I'm dumbfounded. Why are people blaming everyone EXCEPT the individuals who actually abducted her?!

Assuming she's not another runaway bride and lets hope maybe she is and this will have a happy outcome blaming the mother/chaperone/tour company is just wrong. They are the victims. Very much like accusing a rape victim that they MUST have done something to deserve the attack. Shame on you.

You might be right, jette, but the reports all indicate that she went with them willingly.

jette, no one is saying that those individuals are not guilty. Yes, we all know that very bad psychopathic people exist and also opportunistic villains as well as mentally ill who can harm you greatly under dellusional beliefs or whatever.

We know that. But some of these kids really, truly are so naive that they don't have it register or translate into any degree of reality into their behaviors

We had a young gentleman in one of our local high schools who on a field trip to Yellowstone &quot;hopped&quot; into a hot spring because he thought it would be fun and a great show off feat. He died.
Someone must have always regulated his bath water for him. And I don't mean to be cruel, nor do these posters. Life can be very cruel, and it can be unforgiving.

There were no bad men to blame in the case of the hot spring. And this is certainly not the same, but the mindset is fairly similar- pure naive and impulsive behavior.

Unless you talk to some of these very protected people each day, as I do, you might not comprehend the depths of the trust levels to anyone who seems to have authority or &quot;coolness&quot; factors, or the lack of maturity in tons of social situations.

No one is blaming the victim here. And yes in an ideal world a young woman should be free to roam wherever she chooses unmolested. But we don't live in an ideal world and what many posters are commenting on is the lack of &quot;street smarts&quot; that seem to have been demonstrated here. It is very sad that a young woman is missing. It is also sad that many young people are not given the tools to handle worlds that are different from those they are accustomed to. Many adults demonstrate the same lack of awareness that everyplace is not the same and that not everyone behaves as they would or as they would hope.

Wednesday-I don't know about you, but when I purchase a car I know I am buying from a reputable dealership who will provide good service after the sale. In the case of tour companies, one that books Ohio State Spring Break trips ended up going bust and tons of kids were left holding the bag. And there was another one that went belly up and stranded kids in Cancun. If I were putting my kid on a plane, I would make sure they were on the up and up. And the tour companies should provide chaperones a list of their responsibilities and what to do in case something happens. Chaperones are there for a reason, not to party. It is a liability issue.

Jette -- she went with the 3 locals willingly, but the 2 guys they have under arrest are not connected to the locals they have cleared (at this point, at least). In the event that the ex-security guards took her unwillingly after the locals dropped her off at her hotel, it may in fact be that she was a victim of crime.

That still doesn't justify her getting into a car with the locals in the first place, and it doesn't justify her friends allowing it to happen, nor the chaperones not requiring everyone to check in, but there may be more to the story --like abduction--that we hear about before it's all over.