People so overweight the armrest between seats cannot go down
 

I've traveled a fair amount by air over the years, but just encountered this uncomfortable situation for the first time last month. I was on a smallish, United Express plane, on a three-hour flight. My seat was on the aisle, with one next to me at the window.
My seatmate was a very obese woman, so large that the armrest could not go down between us. She took up about 1/3 of my seat, too. I had to 'sit' all scrunched to the left, into the aisle, with my right arm and elbow awkwardly held across my lap, flesh-to-flesh with this woman the entire trip. It was not comfortable in the least. I could only use my left (aisle) arm and hand to turn pages of my book, to eat or drink, and could not put down the seat-back tray, or reach below me for my belongings. It was so unpleasant.
I felt bad for the big woman, as she was probably embarassed. She tried to squish against the window the entire time to take up as little space as possible. But nothing she could do would have shrunk her into one seat.
To make matters worse, I discretely went to the back of the plane to quietly and privately ask the solo flight attendant if I could move to another seat in case there was one vacant. She was quite rude, and loudly asked me what was wrong with my own seat? There wasn't a vacant seat anyway (what a surprise).
Then, during the flight, the plane had such a narrow aisle that the attendant would bump against my left arm every single time she went by. I began to think she was purposefully trying to give me the message that I was in her way-- but how on earth did she think I could move over??
Anyway, thank goodness it wasn't a flight longer than three hours, because it was also quite turbulent which added to my discomfort.
I was also thinking about the safety of the situation, as this woman could not have easily or quickly moved down that narrow aisle to exit in an emergency. She probably had to board and de-plane by herself, and take her time doing it.
I'm not sure how the airlines would do it, but I truly believe they should charge for two seats in cases like this. If you've not gone through this, you might not be able to undertstand how unpleasant it is. And, please, this is not to start a food fight. This is NOT a question of discrimination against the obese, or a discussion of why people are obese, or whether or not it's their fault to be large, or insensitivy to her obvious discomfort, ...
I believe the armrest is the dividing line, and if it won't go down, you need to buy both seats. Otherwise, it's very unfair for people who have paid for one seat, but only receive about two-thirds of one.

Maureen
I agree with you, but what can do we do about it?

How did the armrest go up in the first place?

I am sorry that you had such unpleasent experience Maureen. I was on a charted flight (5.5 hrs)in a middle sanwiched between 2 hunks and that was bad.

I think the seats in economy are getting small legroom though.

I'm kinda wide myself -- but I still fit into a seat, with armrest down (whew!). :-d

Didn't I read about how airlines were charging wide folks for 2 seats now?? If not, I agree that they should.

But back to your experience -- I would have complained before the plane took off. Not loudly, but definitely early. If the plane was indeed full, there probably was no recourse unless you wanted to take another flight. Write to the airline with a clear complaint, a request for a full refund, give them a clearly-worded suggestion for policy in this situation -- and see what happens.

Hey I just thought of something -- aren't armrests _required_ to be down? I know that Bob and I often pull up the armrest between us (snugglesnuggle), and more than once we've had a flight attendant tell us that "policy" requires that the armrest be down.

Mebbe "policy" is per airline, as opposed to FAA??

Hmmm...mebbe you should cc the FAA on your complaint letter!

I made a fairly innocuous comment a couple years ago and nearly got crucified, so I'll refrain.
SO (after 45 years in commercial aviation) says if they cannot fit out the escape windows, they should not be on board.
M

Good point re: armrest down policy, auntiemaria. I might look into that. Anyone else know about it being an FAA regulation?
I have already sent a letter to United about it, so I'll report back when, and if, they respond.
Underhill, the armrest was already up when I took my seat. The lady had probably boarded early and put it up herself to get settled in.
Re: complaining before the flight-- I didn't know of the situation until after boarding, of course, and I don't think there was another flight to Denver that day from Santa Barbara. It would have been more trouble for me to de-plane and stay overnight, than to put up with the three-hour discomfort.

mikemo, an excellent point. This woman definitely could NOT have fit out the escape window-- another thing I'll highlight in my correspondence to United. It may be all useless, and do me no good with United, but I'll at least document it to them.

I've seen on that Airline show on A&E that Southwest Airlines makes people who are over-sized buy 2 seats.

This is a real problem that needs a a solution, but requiring at flight time that some people buy two seats for themselves is not it.

Airlines sell transportation to people, they don't sell space. (How many are charging extra for each carry-on item?) And when you start to talk about charging different people different rates because of their physical characteristics (as in requiring them to buy two seats) there is no way you can avoid discrimination issues.

Like other people, fat people are not always flying for pleasure. They are sent on mandatory business trips by their employers, like other people. Employers are not around to decide whether or not to buy an extra seat if demanded on short notice to get an employee to a business meeting or appointment. That is if they are at all so inclined, if they do not fire the employee because the possibility of greater cost for their transportation cuts into profit margins. Should fat people be barred from jobs which may require travel?

That fat person on the plane may want to avoid flying because they do not want to endure the embarrassment of situations like the ones which MaureenB describes, but may be on the way to bury a family member or be with one who is dying. Are you really ready to tell a person that they must miss the last moments, or the funeral, of a parent or a child if they can't come up with the unexpected demand for a second fare at the airport?

Airlines already accommodate people with many different needs in many different ways, most of which involve little or no extra charge. People by the head are what passenger airlines transport, not packages by weight or dimensions, and the fact is that people come in different sizes. Even in the economy seating sections, there should be some larger seats, to be assigned at flight time solely at the discretion of the flight attendants, to those who must have them for their comfort and the comfort of others.
(And while we're at it, how about a separate soundproof compartment or two for those with constantly crying infants?)

Maureen: Such a sad story!

Personally, I dislike United. Don't take the rudeness personally. It's spread generously among many passengers.

If United Express has more than one class, they could have put either you or her in an empty seat in that other class, particularly after the flight had begun. Just MHO.

Something definitely needs to be done about it, and I think auntimaria's suggestions are right on. My DH is no tiny might, so I understand. He can get the armrest down, but it's tight!

That said, with the trend towards severe obesity increasing, maybe they SHOULD consider weight &/or width in the price of a ticket. Maybe that would serve as at least one motivator to trim down? I wonder what they would have done if both of you had been equally as large? What if your seatmate is casted with elbow out to the side?

If the trend towards obesity continues, and say, we're ALL severely obese, won't the airline HAVE to do something about it for safety considerations? There's got to be a limit! Plus, with gas at a premium, more weight, burns more gas!

I really think anything that personally invades another person's space should be considered as 'extra'. I had to just about hold my breath on one long flight due to severe body odor of the guy behind me (think no bath in a month or two & same clothes).

And JBC411: If the person keeps enlarging, he/she will eventually size themselves out of traveling out of their own bed or floor! So, I don't think blaming the airline for determining a maximum size/weight would be appropriate.

If your neighbor builds his/her house over the line, there ARE repercussions. People don't stand for it!

Belle

I feel caught in the middle of this issue, as I am the 110 lb person in a family of obese people. Both of my parents are quite overweight, one of my younger sisters weighs 250 pounds, the other weighs 150 and she's only 5 feet tall. I've seen the pain that obesity has caused all of my loved ones. It makes me sad because to me they are all beautiful.

Yet I can relate to Maureen's position as well. Last January I flew to Paris and my seatmate was a very large man. Although we were able to put down the armrest, he did spill over into my seat just enough to make a long flight in coach even more uncomfortable.

As one who has evacuated an aircraft due to a fire, I am genuinely concerned for safety. I evacuated a Boeing 777 which has wide doors and wide evacuation slides. On that type of plane it wouldn't be so bad because there's more room. But it would be a lot harder to evacuate a large person from a small commuter aircraft, especially if that aircraft only had one or two doors.

I have watched the show "Airline" where heavy people are asked to pay for an extra seat. On one hand my heart is sad for that person, yet at the same time it seems like the only viable solution. I wish there were a better answer.

On a flight from Bradley to PHL an extremely obese man was seated in the emergency exit row. He required three! extension belts to accomodate his girth. I am sorry he is in that condition however I felt he presented more than an inconvenience, he was a danger. He labored to get down the aisle of the plane to his seat and was having terrible mobility problems. Is it at all likely he could have gotten the emergency exit open and exited quickly so that others could follow? No. When I said so to the USAIR flight attendant she said he was seated there for his comfort. I realize the conditions for being seated in the exit row would have precluded him being there, but the FA put him in the seat. I did write to USAIR after the flight. What would you do?

Being seated next to a severely overweight person has happened to me at least twice. Once time,the lady asked if she could raise the armrest and I surprised myself by saying that I'd prefer she didn't. (I was a snotty, bratty college kid at the time and don't know that I really considered her discomfort, only mine.)

The 2nd time was fairly recently. I quietly approached a FA and he was very nice. There were no extra seats but he offered to switch my seat w/an unaccompanied minor's. I appreciated the offer but didn't want to make a little kid who might have been already scared move, so I stayed where I was and endured the close quarters.

In both instances, the heavy woman did try hard to stay in their designated areas but there was only so much they could do. I feel bad for people in those situations but at the same time want all of my seat....

Sometimes when you fly, you know it's going to be a tight squeeze for the entire time, even if your seatmate isn't grossly overweight. I've been wedged between two large men (not fat, just big) many times and that's no fun either. Is the airline going to charge extra for the 6'4" guys with broad shoulders who have to fold themselves into their seats or demand they sit in biz class where they want to be anyway?

PM: I think we all sympathize with the situation. I come from a long line of short, stout women and have to fight it with all I'm worth! Me, with my big sweet tooth!

I also have close relatives, young and old who are morbidly obese.

However, in the health care field I'm in I'm seeing more and more of this. Most of us friends/relatives are enablers. And most of us feel we in some way 'deserve' our reward of fattening foods.

Have you noticed how, in America, everything is a celebration? If it's not a major hoiday, it's someone's BD or other 'significant event', another reason to make an exception with our diet. It seems to start in kindergarden, and just progresses!

We simply must learn that hunger pains are not always a sign we need to eat! Sometimes it's a signal to drink water! And certainly, we need to try to make good choices when we do!

What's to say that I shouldn't have your sympathy because I sometimes go hungry in order to maintain my weight... I surely feel pitiful at those times!

All the above should not have any bearing on paying by size/weight...it could be much more fair, if you ask me.

Belle

I posted a similar post a few years ago and it raised some hackles before it was finally yanked by the editors. I still think it's a growing (pun intended) problem in the United States, with larger portions, food higher in fat, and fewer than 10% of Americans doing some kind of exercise at least 3 times per week.

Maureen, I was in the same position as you, only *I* was in the window seat! You cannot imagine how awful it was for me to be squashed up against the window. Literally, there was no room for me to move--when the large woman boarded and saw me in the window seat, I wonder now why she didn't say, "Hey, let's trade seats" from the beginning, instead of immediately sitting down and making me squeeze against the window. Fortunately, there was room on my flight to change seats, and the flight attendant was very nice about it.

JBC411:

Regarding your statement:
Airlines sell transportation to people, they don't sell space.

Actually, they sell _seats_ to people. So if a person fills more than one seat, don't you agree that they should have to pay for the additional seat?

As for the large person being seated in the exit row -- yiiiiiikes! That's something about which I would have complained immediately. To jeopardize an entire planeload of passengers rather than risk offending one person??? Shame on that airline!

After I made my last post I went outside to rake leaves. While I was raking, I was feeling bad in case my earlier post has upset anyone. That certainly wasn't my intention, so I came back to the board to express that to everyone.

The problem is that there is no easy answer to this issue. It seems like no matter what we do, someone will lose. I hope we can come up with some good ideas for being fair to everyone without letting this thread get ugly.

P_M don't worry, you gave an honest response. I always worry when someone that overweight goes to those tiny toilets!!! I have a problem with an elbow that sticks out, so the flight staff are always hitting me. but- I must keep to the isle seat or it will stick in someone. Let's try to be more sympathetic. I doubt the fat person wants to travel unless necessary and is most likely discomfted than you.

I do have a solution: but the airlines would never go for it.

Each plane should have one or two rows of seats where instead of say, 3 seats across, there are only two. Thus, instead of six seats to an entire row, there are only four.

These seats should be towards the middle of the plane, but not near the exit.

Thus, if a terribly overweight person gets on board, the stewardesses should have the ability to switch this person to the "wider seat" row - for everyone's sake.

After all, this kind of seating already exist in business and first class.

As for the exit door, the airplane manufacturer can make bigger doors. Already some ambulance companies are getting wider ambulances and bigger gurneys, so I truly believe that we can adjust in other areas too.

Of course, the best thing to do is not to eat as much and get a bit slimmer. :)

Hello everyone. This is a situtation that really does not seem to have any real good answer does it?

I am slender but I contribute that to my food allergies, corn products and dairy products. However I come from a family of slender people so guess it is in the genes. But I could have been born in a family with weight problems.

I have a few "married into the family" relatives that do have weight problems and they are such beautiful people that I don't even think about it, except from the health viewpoint, heart problems, diabites (sp?) and so forth.

I have seen the program Airlines where some passengers have been told by SW they have to buy two seats. How humilitating that must be.

But to have ones seat invaded, the seat the passenger paid for is certainly a problem also. And it certainly does not seem right to me.

To have "larger seats" on planes with a higher airfare could be the solution but how many seats? Say there are six premium size seats and eight oversized passengers? And how is the airline to know when a passenger books their flight that this particular passenger is larger then the standard size seat in couch can hold.

Perhaps on all airlines websites there should be a prominent "Attention" that all arm rest must be down during flights and that if this is not possible the passenger will be required to buy two airline seats? Then I can imagine the discrimination lawsuits that will take place.

Perhaps it all boils down to IF we were all considerate of others and consequently know that we cannot fit in the standard coach seat without causing undue discomfort to the passenger next to us we, those that have this problem, would buy two airline seats.

But we all know that consideration for others is not something everyone adheres to.

I think it would take King Salamone to figure a solution to this problem.

Well...the airline regulates the weight and dimensions of your baggage with a surcharge if it exceeds either. Seems to me the same could apply in regards to the mandatory extra seat purchase. Despite the elbow bashing, it sounds like you were lucky not to be in the window seat. Please see the following link: http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe...out/index.html

JBC, that was a wonderful well thought out response. People should not be expected to buy an extra seat at the airport. What if there are no extra seats? Should someone be forced to fly standby? Which person? What if they don't have enough money? Perhaps if this is such a problem, the airline should use a height/weight chart to base the cost of their tickets on. I have never had an armrest and have always felt squished by having my husband on one side and some man on the other. Perhaps they should charge men more because they hog every inch of available space. Or maybe everyone could pay more and get a reasonable amount of space.

There really isn't an easy solution to any of this. Wider seats would help, but I'm afraid we'd all just expand to fit them. I think the fairest situation would require larger people to purchase a second seat, although I would suggest it be at a somewhat reduced price. Of course, reducing the cost of that extra seat means everyone else would pay a little extra to subsidize it, so that doesn't seem fair either.

They can't really check people before they board and require large people to buy an extra seat, because what happens when the flight is already full? Either somebody else gets bumped, the large person is denied boarding, or somebody gets squashed.

To be honest, if this is really a safety issue (if the person could not fit out an emergency exit), they should not fly or be allowed to fly, extra seat or not. Safety should trump hurt feelings or a job requirement to fly.

As for the armrest being up before Maureen got to her seat, I've seen the armrest up more often than not when I board, even when my row is empty. It makes it easier to get to and from the window/middle seats at boarding/de-boarding if the armrests are up, so I wouldn't automatically conclude the woman in Maureen's example put the armrest up herself. But, she should have been able to put it back down once she got seated, or else......

About the armrest. It can be up or down anytime in the flight. Not a safety issue.

&quot;<i> They can't really check people before they board and require large people to buy an extra seat</i>&quot;

yes they can - Southwest does it frequently. I have seen it happen at SMF and LAX on flights I was on . . . . .

Here's an interesting story. I know two women who are both quite obese and they often travel together. They buy three seats together and &quot;share&quot; the middle one. One trip was overbooked and the airline seated someone in the vacant seat between them. They protested since they had paid for the seat. They were told that was too bad, and they were &quot;voiding&quot; or booting that &quot;third person&quot; and would issue that ticketholder a later flight -- which of course was a complete waste to them. So they paid for three seats and got two. So much for the theory of paying more -- someone still got stuck between them.

Interesting that OneWanderingJew justifies why s/he replied they preferred the armrest up.

I think if someone asked me, I'd say I'd prefer it up too. Yes, it would mean that I am being selfish, but I think the obese person making the request is being selfish first in asking if s/he could take up part of my seat space.

If someone asked you, what would you say?

Sorry, meant to say &quot;prefer it if they DIDN'T raise the armrest&quot;.

&quot;&quot; They can't really check people before they board and require large people to buy an extra seat&quot;

yes they can - Southwest does it frequently. I have seen it happen at SMF and LAX on flights I was on . . . . &quot;

Janisj, if you're going to quote somebody (me), make sure you don't edit it and lose the point. The second part of my sentence was &quot;because what happens when the flight is full?&quot;. Address that problem. It doesn't matter that you've seen it happen with Southwest - what do they do if the flight is already full, or as in Patrick's example, overbooked?

This really is such a troublesome dilemma. I come from a family aof very small and very large people and can see it from both viewpoints. Perhaps when booking there could be options to enter your weight (and height!!). If you are a certain size maybe a second seat could be offered at half price. Then again, if it's going to be given away due to over-booking you're up a creek.

Here's a thought travelling on a similar vein...what do you do about fellow passengers doused in perfume/collogne? Can't tell you how many pounding headached I get from said problem!

This topic is actually keeping me from falling asleep tonigh (sad!). So many thoughts on this really. HEre's another...where do we draw the line in trying to accomodate everyone and not hurt feelings, yet still stay profitable (leads to other questions like should airlines really have to offer 20 different kinds of meal options)? It would be interesting to know what the travel demographics are. If the majority of travellers are large (or even reasonably uncomfortable in their seats) then as responsible businesses airlines should attempt to meet the demands of their demographics. But, if we keep allowing airlines to set the standards they will always be sub par (I travel a lot and the worst part is ALWAYS the airlines). At the extreme level, are we willing to boycot airlines until they ofer comfortable seating for people taller than 5'6&quot; and weighing more than 160 lbs? Too tired for any more of the thoughts racing throuhg my mind. Goodnight!

Weasel: I was NOT commenting on the rest of your statement - just to what you said about airlines not being able to do it. (I didn't edit it BTW - I merely copy/pasted the bit I was responding to)

Anyway - if there are not enough seats - then it is an overbooking situation and they ask for voluntary bumpees - just like any other over booking.

It happens every day of the week . . . .

Well I can't speak out of personal experiance but I can say I do know that they can buy 2 seats. Well at least at some airlines. My half sisters mom was going to fly out to see her and she's big enough that they had her buy 2 seats so it is possible for them to do that. I'm sorry you had such a bad experiance but you know next time you'll appreciate that whole seat :P

Patrick,

I'm interested! Do your friends complain to the airline? and Do they get a refund?

They appear to be considerate people and I bet the passenger between them was complaining - I do hope they pointed out that they had paid for his/her seat and without them he/she'd be on a later flight.

I've also watched Airline and the embarrassment that passengers go through when they are asked to pay for an extra seat.

Mmmmmm... I wonder if airlines only do this when the flight isn't full!!!

Patrick's anecdote above demonstrates the truth that airlines sell transportation to people--they don't sell seats, they don't sell space. When the two large women bought the seat--the space--between them, the airline voided their purchase when it could transport one more person by doing so.

It was not that the person was paying more for the space than the women were. It was that the airline knows that its business is transporting people, and it would be a far worse thing to do, from a customer relations standpoint, to have a plane take off with an empty seat, leaving behind a customer who won't get where he needs to go when he needs to be there, than to disappoint a couple of customers who wanted to buy the opportunity to have no one sitting next to them.

One of the reasons the &quot;fat people have to buy two seats&quot; scheme won't fly (pardon the pun) is that it will collapse when the airlines need those second seats for passengers who otherwise would be left behind fuming at the airport. Which will the airline choose: permanently alienating both passengers, the one forced to buy the extra seat and the gone who didn't get where he needed to when he needed to? Or irritating them both temporarily as they are scrunched too close together? I think you can tell me very quickly which the airlines will choose.

And, of course, if there are fewer customers wanting to travel than there are seats, then the problem is lessened beause fat people can be placed next to a vacant seat. And do you really think a policy of making some fat people pay for a vacant seat next for them while others are seated next to an unpaid, vacant seat is going to survive very long?

It is the airlines' responsibility to come up with a more creative and flexible way of serving all with comfort than they have so far. Competitive pressures will reward those who do and punish those who do not.

The eventual solution will be along the lines Easytraveler describes above (some larger, two across seating in the economy section, to be used for those who most need it at the flight attendants' discretion), despite the pessimism about its adoption that she expresses.

Already, JetBlue has introduced different sized seating in the same fare class on some flights to accommodate different needs. On these planes, seats toward the back have greater legroom, for those who place a greater value on the extra room than on getting on and off the plane quickly. Seats with less legroom are clustered towards the front, for those whose first priority is to deplane the fastest.

So far I only know legroom to have been varied in this way, but if it has, it is only a matter of time until seat width is too. Easytraveler's larger two across seating might be placed at the very rear of the plane, to keep them from being &quot;envied&quot; by passengers not placed in them by the flight attendants (although I doubt that people would really clamor for the &quot;honor&quot; of needing them the most.)

In this free American ecomomy, businesses are supposed to compete to serve the widely varying needs of different types of people. Those providers who can serve the greatest variety of needs win the greatest rewards.

We who value freedom of choice should not be beating up on our fellow citizens who are more different from others of us, and have different needs, than is convenient for the service providers.

In less free societies, people are expected to conform to fit the services the providers find it convenient to provide. Instead, we Americans who value freedom of choice should expect and demand those providers find a way to serve us all in the glory of all our differences.

People, put the responsibility for solving this very genuine problem where it belongs--on the airlines, who we pay plenty to make this process of moving people places work as well as it can. Don't turn against your fellow passengers.

The exact same thing happened to us about 2 years ago when flying SW from BWI to TPA. At the time, you couldn't go online to get your boarding passes, so even though we got to the airport 1 1/2 hrs before our return flight, we were issued &quot;C&quot; boarding passes.

When we boarded the plane, the only 2 available seats were with an extremely obese man....who had the armrest in the up position and was spilling halfway into the seat next to him. (This flight originated in NY)

Because the flight was full, I had no choice but to sit with this fella's sweaty body against mine. Everytime I moved closer to my husband, he seemed to expand more into my seat. To boot, his body odor was offensive.

I sent a letter to SW when I return home to complain that not only was I uncomfortable, but that I had encrouched on my husbands seat to get away from this guy.

I got a very nice letter back apologizing for our flight discomfort and they included $200 flight vouchers. This customer service rep. stated in the letter that &quot;they&quot; (meaning sw) had erred in issuing this passenger a single seat.

The idea of having over-sized seats on each plane makes so much sense. The airlines could charge 150 percent for each over-sized seat. The question is, how does the airline determine in advance who is an over-sized person? The matter can't wait till boarding, where it creates a public embarassment for everyone involved.
Maybe it's like the airlines' luggage weight policy. The airlines very clearly state that policy-- how large and heavy each piece can be-- and people who ignore it pay the penalty. What if a person's weight is subject to the same type of treatment-- we are told in print on websites, on confirmation e-mails, on tickets, etc. that people over X size need to purchase appropriate seating. Then, if they don't, they would be voluntarily putting themselves in an embarassing situation at the airport. The airlines could advertise it as a plus-size seat, in a sensitive and inoffensive manner, in niche publications, etc.
Certainly this is a touchy subject, and this thread provides many thoughtful ideas. I think it goes to show that most people are kind and sensitive regarding other persons' feelings. Let's keep talking, and we'll forward the result to the FAA or whomever.