Controversial, but.........
 

This is controversial I know but I did want to see what my seasoned Fodorite travel colleagues thought.

Last week flying to Miami my husband and I weren't able to upgrade to First Class but were able to secure bulkhead.

Parents (I'm guessing) of a lap child that was able to walk on his own sat a row in front of us in the last row of First Class.

Lap child screamed and screamed and screamed for at least 90% of the flight. Would not stop screaming until parents let him run up and down the aisle.

Captain would not turn off seatbelt sign because or turbulence. It wasn't too bad but it was very bumpy.

FA begging parents to please hold on to child. Parents refused!

If you were sitting in First Class, would you have asked for your money back?

This child screamed like he was being mutilated. This was temper tantrum screaming. He was all over the other passengers in First Class.

It was as if the child controled the parents and not the other way around.

What do you do in a situation like this? I understand children will cry and lap babies (toddler in this case) do exist but at what point that it infringes on your space do you say something? Again, this was in First Class.

For the record, my views may be skewed because even though I have stepchildren, I have no natural children of my own.

It sounds like a nightmare flight. I have my own kids and was always concerned about them being too loud on airplanes-- but they sure never did anything like you've described. The child you describe sounds like a real brat, with parents who let him get out of control.
Too bad it ruined your plane ride, but I doubt if anyone would get anywhere asking for a First Class rebate. I'll bet the airlines would say it was out of their control, which it was.

I assume a "lap child" does not have his own seat but sits on the parent's lap. So that's problem #1 - there have been previous threads devoted to this. Problem #2 is the FA's "begging" instead of insisting that the child sit down - IMHO they were just not doing their job ensuring the safety of ALL passengers. If I'm riding in first class it is because I have upgraded, not because I have paid so it would be useless to ask for my money back. I would however have pressured to the FA's to work harder to quiet the kid down as screaming kids on airplanes are a pet peeve of mine.

I'm trying to think of how to put this kindly, but can't.

Ask for my money back because they had an unruly child on board? Are you crazy?

What's next? Refuse to pay for your dinner because the people at the next table were too loud? Demand they buy back your house because there's a barking dog next door? Get your money back from the Broadway show because the people behind you talked and rustled their candy wrappers?

It's called, life, honey, get used to it!

Just so you know where my perspective is coming from . . . I have 2 small children and flew w/the youngest (18 mos at the time) on my lap this past Thanksgiving. My parents bought the tickets (it was a family event) so I did not make the decision not to buy ticket for dd.

That said, I would never fly again w/an infant on my lap. I wish the airline had forced me to buy a ticket for dd (I tried to do so when I realized a ticket had not been purchased but the flight was full) as it is unfair to her, me, and the person in front of me (whose seat she kicked) to have her on my lap. When my parents bought the tickets, Delta said dd didn't need one so they didn't buy one. I really wish all passengers were required to have a seat, regardless of age. Folks on this board warned me against not having a seat for her due to safety reasons and that may indeed be an issue, but just for the sanity of everyone on the flight (including myself!) it would have been better for her to have her own seat where she probably would have just slept (she didn't cry, but it was still quite difficult).

Back to first class . . . if you are paying extra for a first class experience on an airline, there shouldn't be screaming children around you. I think there should probably me a minimum age to fly first class.

Patrick - noone should expect a refund in those situations but I don't think they should accept those situations as status quo as they can and should be addressed. The best way to do this is through those with the ability to do so - the FA's, restaurant manager, law enforcement (noisy dog) etc.

GoTravel, I would have been extremely disappointed at having to listen to a screaming child most of the time BUT we all know that children scream sometimes, even in First Class:-). I would wonder if the child's ears were hurting, but if that was the problem, I wouldn't think running up and down the aisle would have relieved the pain! :p

My granddaughter's pediatrician offered Benadryl (HIS idea -I know that horrifies some people) when she flew the first few times, just in case she reacted that way. His idea was that it was better to relax them and let them sleep, I guess. (My GD didn't seem to need it!)

Really, children screaming is just part of "real life", and no airline could guarantee you a "scream-less" flight. I don't think it would do any good to ask for a refund.............

I have to agree with Patrick. Last I checked there's no guarantee that First Class ensures a quiet flight. It's a pity, sure, when there's some nightmare on board beit child or adult...but that's the risk you take when you fly.

I wholeheartedly agree, Craig. I was merely responding what seemed to me to be the main question here, "would you ask for your money back?"

It's sad to think things like this happen, but to think that means somebody owes you money is ludicrous in my opinion.

I wouldn't have asked the airline for a refund because I can't blame them for the situation the parents created. I wouldn't ask because I wouldn't expect them to respond.

In terms of the parents behavior, sometimes you really are in a no win situation. If I let my children scream, then I'm a bad parent for not controlling my child. However, by giving into their demand, which might stop the screaming, I'm probably encouraging them to pull that stunt again, resulting in a spoiled child who always gets their way.

That said, I think you have to pick your spots and respond to the situation that takes into account where you are.

Not knowing the circumstances that resulted in the tantrum in the first place, I can't fault the parents for allowing it to occur. However, they probably should have been better prepared to create a diversion by providing some other alternative like a book or toy. While we try and limit our kids tv viewing at home, I have to say that every parent should think seriously about purchasing a portable DVD player for airplane trips. I pop in a video and my son's perfectly content to watch his show for as long as the batteries last.

I think you have a valid complaint. Having said that,I'm not entirely sure its the airline's fault to the point that they need to give you a full refund. (Based on the worst traveling companion posts on this site, they'd be giving out refunds right and left!)

Ultimately, its the parent's (or whomever they were in relation to the child they were traveling with) responsibility to control the child.

Yes, the airline staff could have insisted the child be in his seat at all times, but maybe the runnning up and down the aisles was better than the nonstop screaming?

Regardless, I'm sure you (and everyone else) had a horrible flight. You didn't say how long the flight was, but I'm assuming it seemed twice as long!

I think if you approached the airline calmly and told them about what happened, making the point that you paid for first class and expected that part of the unspoken perks of first class was a more "refined" cabin, they might give you a credit or some sort of special deal for your next flight, especially if you are a FF and paid for a full fare ticket.

I don't think your views are skewed at all. Children do cry and become upset, especially during travel as they can be very tired and emotional. There is no reason a competent adult shouldn't be able to control a child that is having a simple temper tantrum. Easier said than done, I assume. But, if boundaries are there in the first place, even the most upset child should be able to be calmed down at some stage.

My parents were extremely liberal, and yet, as young as three and four years old, I knew that this kind of behavior was not tolerated. If I cried because I was tired, my mom would hold me tightly until I either fell asleep or stopped, but I never even considered kicking or screaming. Even at that young age, I had already been taught that was unacceptable behavior.

You said the child screamed for 90% of the flight so for most of the flight the parents were trying to control the situation. I'm absolutely sure they were hating it more than anyone else on the plane. The parents were between a rock and a hard place. Whatever they did, someone was going to think it was the wrong thing to do. You think everything they tried was wrong and really, you don't know why the kid was screaming. It's quite possible that he's never behaved like that before. You just don't know.

I agree that all children on planes should have to have a seat.

Why would the airline refund anything? You all got there safely and most of the people in first class probably didn't pay for it anyway. As you said, you were not able to get an upgrade.

If anyone is considering giving their toddler some Benadryl (or other antihistamine) to make them sleepy for a flight, be warned that for a certain number of kids, the opposite happens. The drug can make some people extremely hyper. So, if you're so inclined, I'd try a 'test dose' at home to see how it affects your child. Jean

I agree that you shouldn't expect your money back. As it stands, small children are allowed in first class and you should be aware of that when purchasing a first class ticket. However I do question the common sense and courtesy of a parent who chooses to fly first class with a small child.

Unfortunate that it may be, you paid to go to Miami and you got there. I would suspect that the parents feel bad however if they did not display remorse, I would display a nasty face at the least.

One last point, in terms of the First Class question with kids and a refund, if you agree that it should occur. Then can I ask if I was entitled to a refund on a flight from San Francisco to Newark two years when my son slept the entire way quietly in his first class seat as the flight attendants spent the flight talking non-stop, and loudly with a male passenger. Not sure how his date with Cyndy turned out.

My understanding was no children under 5 in first class. No exceptions. Depending on the age of the brat, that may be grounds for refunds. Or a slap in the face of the moronic parents.

I think some well placed duct tape would have alleviated this situation.

Regarding comments that the parents should control their child, I think it is helpful to note that a child over the age of 2 cannot fly w/o a ticket (on a parents lap). So I have to assume the child was under the age of two. A child under 2 can be difficult to control by even the best parents (especially on an airplane when they may be experiencing discomfort).

SnowRooster,
I'll take up your challenge as the parent who has taken his children into first class on more then one occassion.

If First Class cabins were bastions of social grace and polite society where people speak in hushed tones and engage in behavior that is fitting of an audience with the Pope, then maybe I'd think twice about getting my children a seat there.

However, having flown First Class numerous times both domestically and internationally, I can tell you that rarely, if ever, have I witnessed a child as the problem.

On a flight from Ft. Lauderdale to Newark the well dressed businessman in front-of me proceeded to shout obscenities at the flight attendant when she cut this visibly drunk idiot off.

Or the two women across the aisle from us on a flight to Paris who spent the entire overnight flight gabbing about their respective sex lives, growing louder with each additional glass of wine.

On at least three occassions the flight attendants were the problem as they spent the entire flight chatting in the front galley. I would have liked an hour nap but that would have cut into their socializing.

I could go on with several other example but those are representative.

..."I question the common sense and courtesy of parents who fly first class with a child..." Huh ????

You pay for first class, therefore anyone who can afford it, has the right to be there.

I don't blame the child in this instance, but the parents who let him get away with this type of behaviour ( speaking as the parent of a 3 year old ) and the FA's who let the safety of a child be put in question by allowing him to continue to run through the aisles with a seat belt sign on, and turbulence.

Ryan - If adults misbehave they are accountable for their actions and it their fault (or the FAs fault) for not controlling them. They should be held responsible for any disruptions they cause during a flight (just because some adults misbehave doesn't make it okay).

I don't think all children should be banned from first class, just very small ones (infants, toddlers) who are at times uncontrollable.

wagonwheel - you have taken that quote completely out of context. The comment is regarding a child on a lap which means the child is under the age of two. As I said previously, it is hard for even the best parent to control a child under the age of two at times. I'm not sure what would provoke a parent to take a child under the ago of two into first class - to me that is just asking for trouble (IMO).

GoJacks,
Slapping a 3 year old to get them to stop having a tantrum would, I suspect, be about as effective as trying to explain to you why slapping a 3 year old who is having tantrum won't work.

Putting kids in time-out or doing things like taking away toys as punishment aren't the problem relative to my Dad's 1970's method of the belt. The problem is that parent's don't discipline their kids AT ALL, not the method they choose.

Snowrooster:

I think I read it right !

While we're at it lets ban all children from 5 star hotels, restaurants, cars over $50K, lets see...oh yes, upscale shopping malls, museums ( very expensive and quiet in there ), the ballet, etc. etc.

My daughter who is a flight attendant would have told the parents in no uncertain terms to control that child.

wagonwheel - Again, I never said "all children." Let me spell this out to you one more time . . . I am referring to CHILDREN UNDER THE AGE OF TWO which is what this post is about (a child on a lap which means he/she is under the age of two). We are also talking about first class on an airplane, not any of the other places you mentioned. Try sticking to the subject at hand.

Ryan, Check the spelling. I never wrote "slap the 3 yo".

That was directed ast the parents, and of course,sarcastic.

Flying in first class with an infant on your lap is a waste of money or miles anyway, which further indicates the idiocy of the parents in this case.

"While we're at it lets ban all children from 5 star hotels, restaurants, cars over $50K, lets see...oh yes, upscale shopping malls, museums ( very expensive and quiet in there ), the ballet, etc. etc."

Okay.

snowrooster, you may have meant "children under the age of two", but that's not what you said. It's so easy for misunderstandings to occur, isn't it?

I always have my Bose QuietComfort headphones... they help tremendously.
I seem to get yappy flight attendants on my travels.
They stand near by and don't realize how loud they are talking.
The headphones do not eliminate noise 100% but they do take it down to background noise.
Also, they do not work well when you want to sleep.
For that I carry good high tech ear plugs.
They take virtually no space and I just tuck them into side pockets on my travel bag.

Go Jacks,
I stand corrected. Having had a 3 yo throw a tantrum, there are times where'd I gladly take the slap in the face as an alternative.

A couple more thoughts on this subject from a mother and grandmother:

(1) I think a child that age should definitely have his own seat and not be allowed out, especially when there is turbulence and the seat belt light is on, and definitely NOT allowed to run up and down the aisles, and climb on other passengers at ANY time, for any reason, even if he is screaming. The flight attendant should have INSISTED the parents hold him.......... or else.

(2) There are times that only the Almighty himself could stop a very young toddler screaming......... and to those who are sure you can definitely stop it if you're a "good" parent, I'm afraid it doesn't work that way.

(3) First Class is not a big deal to some people who can afford it routinely. To them, it's a bigger, more comfortable seat with plenty of legroom.......... and they probably give no thought to the people around them who may be flying First Class the first and maybe only time in their lives, and who are horrified to have a screaming child next to them.

(4) I have huge sympathy for the people on this flight, and I, too, would have been severely ticked, but I don't think the airline can be held responsible for the discomfort (except that they didn't INSIST the child be held all the time.)

Barbara - Yes, misunderstanding are ineveitable at times. To me, it is obvious that I was referring to children under two because these are the only children that are allowed to ride on laps on planes, but I realize I know this because I've dealt w/the situation myself w/my own children recently. However I did respond and clarify that I was referring to children under two once and wagonwheel still insisted that I was referring to "all children." I think it was pretty clear I was talking about children in first class, and not shopping malls or museums (which I happen to take my own children to regularly).

Ryan,I have two little ones myself and it is a constant test of patience which I often fail miserably.

I lose arguments with my 4yo daughter on a daily basis.

Bonniebroad, I agree totally. (From someone who is the mother of three and hopefully, not a grandmother any time soon!)

It's a real drag for a parent to have a screaming child, no matter where you have one. I once rode next to a couple who had a cholicky baby, which means something was wrong with the childs' indigestion system and so they would be screaming for most of their childhood until their body worked out the problem. It was awful to see them struggling with the child.

After I had my son I found I was much better at being around screaming children. Now, he's a teen and I'm thinking I wish he were a little guy once again.

I think the idea that first class should be reserved for those w/o children under two is laughable. They pay, they fly, same as everyone. There's been a few adults I wished I could have locked in the bathroom on some flights.

Perhaps there was something going on with this child that wasn't immediately apparent to other passengers or even to the flight attendants. I travelled lots of times with my kids when they were little - and there are 4 of them, with only 5 1/2 years between the oldest and the youngest. Not once did I have any kind of persistent behaviour problem with any of them. Things came up, of course - whining, yelling, squabbling, wanting to get up and run around, all the usual kiddy stuff - but nothing lasted very long, primarily because I perceived this as a safety issue. The kids had to sit reasonably still in their seats and not cause big disturbances because we were in an airplane with lots of other people, flying more than 30,000 feet above the ground, and that was that. The priority was to keep the situation under control NO MATTER WHAT. Either the parents on GoTravel's flight didn't have the same priority, or there was some problem that prevented them from doing what they needed to do.

FYI - A child under two on a parents lap does not have a ticket (and no money was paid for that child to be on the flight). That's fine if some of you disagree and think children under two belong in first class. My opinion is they don't (and I take my kids - ages 2 and 3 - pretty much everywhere). I just think that if you are paying for a "first class" experience that's what you should get. For me, first class would be a big expense and a big deal, maybe to others it is not. To each his own.

For the record, it didn't bother me too much because of the sound buffer from the bulkhead.

However, everyone in First Class that I could see was miserable. Miserable.

I question the airlines for allowing a lap child in First Class.

I would not be surprised to find out that USAir did issue free upgrade vouchers to the rest of the passengers in First Class.

You could tell how peeved everyone was. The only other thing that entertained the toddler was pressing the call button for the FA. This child was tall enough to stand on the seat and reach the call button.

I just think something is wrong here and can't figure out where the breakdown occured.