A question about schools
 

I hope you don't mind me asking on here, it's not really travel, but what are your schools like over there? Are they anything like we see on TV? (In the UK) My children love "Saved By The Bell" and other such programmes and think all american schools must be really cool - take "Sabrina" for instance, DW my 11 year old thinks the whole thing is "wicked". Help! Just interested though - any info gratefully digested.

As a mother of a teenager, I think the TV show with the most realistic depiction of what school is like here is "Freaks and Geeks". Don't know if you get it there. I also thought "My So Called Life" was realistic but it hasn't been on the air in a while, maybe in syndication. What do others think?

Most schools in urban areas have metal detectors so kids can't bring weapons in school. They don't show this on tv. And the sad reality is, most public schools in this country are a disgrace. Besides weapons, teen pregnancy and drugs are rampant. Johnny can't read and write.

Well, we don't all feel that way about our schools. The schools in the midwest are typically better than either of the coast's big city schools. LA schools are a complete nightmare. Actually teen pregnancy is down quite a bit but it's still ridiculous that very young teens are getting pregnant.

The statement "most public schools in this country are a sad disgrace" -- on what do you base this? What you read or what you know? I happen to live in an area where hundreds and hundreds of public schools are some of the finest in the nation, academically, socially, and every way. Remarkable students, achievements, teachers, and parents. I'm so sick of hearing crap about how crappy schools are -- yes, some, perhaps a lot, but not "schools" as in "all schools." And not every school is a scary inner-city school with gun detectors. Has anyone taken a look at what the typical 7th grader is expected to learn and do right now, compared to 7th grade in the 60's?

I live in a suburban school district which is highly rated and we have gun detectors in our school.

I have been a teacher in various public high schools for over 15 years and from personal experience, I can testify that the shows you have mentioned are only TV shows for the purposes of entertainment -- they are not based on reality. (They're probably what the kids WISH that their high school day was like!) Also from my personal experience, the vast majority of high school students today are decent, hard-working kids and the vast majority of teachers are also working hard to provide their students with the best possible education. (Yes, of course every one of us can point to some unfortunate exceptions in both cases!)

Thanks for standing up for the majority of our kids Kristie. I never know how to respond to those sweeping generalizations. I'll soon have to log off for the day as I'll be leaving to go to my son's awaard ceremony where he will be recognized for getting straight A's. Most of his friends had been getting straight A's all year and these are just your regular kids whose parents work hard to make sure they get a good education. No guns, no weapons, public school. My advice is cut down on tv news or at least balance what you see with the knowledge that there are many millions of kids who are not in the news.

Esme, the schools are EXACTLY like "Saved by the Bell" and "Sabrina." They are overrun with preppies, showgirls and witches.

Mr. Killjoy you are killing me! LOL Are all men in the UK like Bennie Hill?

Just a suggestion: one way to evaluate schools in a particular district is to assess the politcal leadership. This is so apparent in the DC/VA/MD area, where terrifc systems can reside within a mere few miles of deplorable systems. It is this disjointed, irrational proximity of the good with the bad that gives rise to the notion of vouchers. Anyone who tars all US schools with the same brush offers a disservice to people genuinely interested in making our schools a place of learning. Living with an educational professional has shown me it's simpleminded to write off our schools and kids ... they'd have more of a chance if the adult egos in local politics could use their authority to better the schools. We instead end up with this constant wrangle between mayors, city councils, school boards and school administrators. Ciao.

Thank you L for your intelligent response. I can't believe that XX has kids and can make that statement. No Esme, US schools are not like those on TV. TV is fictional and programs are developed for entertainment. Showing a half hour of students doing homework and school projects or taking standardized tests so that local politicos can proudly point to their "successful" schools is not entertaining.

I have to admit getting sucked in to Boston Public, a show about a quasi-inner-city high school in Boston that started in fall 2000. Fox. Metal detectors, caring teachers, interested students, not so interested students, concerned administrators - I think they do a fairly good job portraying a public high school with its fair share of problems. <BR> <BR>I have to say that judging the quality of a school by the fact that all of its students are receiving "straight a's" is more than a little worrisome. To me, that indicates more than anything else that grading is lax. <BR> <BR>Quite frankly, the amount of taxpayer money going to any given school system can be (note I say CAN BE, not IS) little indication of the quality of teaching, etc. I grew up in East Hampton, a wealthy sort of suburb of NYC. The school system was so dismal I went to boarding school 9th through 12th grades. The poor quality of the local school system was a combination of laziness on the part of both faculty and administration. <BR> <BR>There's really no arguing with the fact that we have a sad state of educational affairs in this country. I have a friend who taught in a terrible neighborhood in the Bronx for several years, then switched to a lovely, exclusive private school on the Upper East Side. The stark contrast makes her incredibly sad, but she simply couldn't face teaching at the public school any longer. The stories one reads about are real - and it blows my mind that just a few miles away parents pay to send their children to schools like the wonderful private school I mentioned. Not to cast all public schools in the same light - also a few miles away you have wonderful public schools in Westchester. <BR> <BR>

Well said, L. We're also in the DC metro area, and there are lots of fine schools here. My kids are learning things a lot earlier than I did, and I turned out just fine. <BR> <BR>I am, however, growing concerned about all of this standardized testing. I believe my elementary age kids get tested to see if they are gifted (my daughter was tested three times just to make sure), and tested to see if their school is any good. The latter batch of tests is the problematic one. The schools spend a huge amount of the month of March preparing for tests, having pep rallies and other social events and such, just so our school will outrank other schools. Who cares? I'm not sold that there is any value in it. <BR>

Oh good grief Lizzie, Boston Common?! That was a pile of garbage. Once again a person commenting about their own experience in one school and vicariously through one other person. These opinions are based on anecedotal informational and therefore unreliable when attributed to the schools in the US. The US lags in math when compared to other similar countries. That's a fact. The students in the US are subjected to frequent and useless tests as Cindy says.

For anyone interested in currect educational issues, the National School Boards Assn. in Alexandria, Va. (www.nsba.org) has studied standardized testing, vouchers, private schools, teacher accountability, violence in schools, teen pregnancy, AIDS in schools, etc. ... their information is first rate, although of course tailored to answer and educate school board members nationally. It is terrible to hear anyone offer a blanket indictment of our schools ... just as I cannot imagine why the Federal Government provides only 7 percent of the total educational investment in primamry and secondary public schools ... am I missing something, or are education and healthcare among the most important investments we make to keep our country sound and progressing? No investment, no return on investment. Maybe I ought to just give my $600 refund to a school. Ciao.

The perfect school for most is the homeschool. Kids get the attention they need. They learn at their own pace. The teacher/student ratio can't be beat. There are no gun detectors. The students have less self-esteem problems. No peer pressure. No dress code. No frivolous testing (but testing does occur). And guess what...THESE KIDS ARE OUT-PERFORMING CHILDREN IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS (according to their SAT scores). It is no wonder that by 2002 it is predicted that there will be about 3 million american children being taught in the home.

Actually... I commented on several different school systems AND experiences. And the information about public schools in New York City may be a mixture of fact and anecdote, but there have been several extensive studies done of that school system that have come to basically the same conclusion: something needs to be done. Just do a search on the Times or Journal websites. Are you going to argue that these accounts aren't true? Or that there aren't serious problems there, and in DC, and in many different cities? Or that it's NOT sad that such school systems exist in such close proximity to wealthy public school systems and private schools where students get great educations that will help them the rest of their lives? <BR> <BR>Furthermore, no one exists in a vacuum. I realize that I have been fortunate in terms of my own education. Of course anything I say about it is ancdotal. So are most of the other comments here! I have come into contact with a very wide variety of people with different educational backgrounds and had the chance to learn what their educational experiences were like. I also know many teachers and have heard their opinions. What's wrong with anecdotal evidence - especially when it is clearly labeled as such? I don't profess to be an expert and I made sure to state that I didn't intend my views to tar the entire US school system. <BR> <BR>Please note that I said Boston Public does a "FAIRLY" good job of portraying a quasi-inner-city high school. Perhaps you are too far removed from that, in age and locale, to see it for what it is. And take it with a grain of salt.

L, you are so right about our investment in schools. I am a lobbyist for K-12 education and you cannot imagine the opposition to increased funding.

A, it's true homeschooling has a powerful attraction for many ... and you guys are an enrgetic voice. But for you to say it's the perfect type of school for most, well, isn't that going over the line of what is known at this point. But I'm sure you can point to some research. What would be interesting to know is how people become ardent advocates for your approach. By the way, using an SAT-based argument might be your strongest suit right now ... a number of colleges are moving away from reliance on those scores, and some are even abandoning their use in admissions decisions ... there have been numerous articles in the press about SAT over the past year. And Lizzie, there's nothing inherently wrong with anecdotal information ... it has its place in assessing issues (it can certainly be more interesting and human than raw data from some study). But I'm not clear about your thoughts on DC schools ... yes, there are serious problems, and we're not seeing improvements. But I will tell you this: I would bet my life that if we had a better political sitaution in DC we could begin to improve our school system. May I offer you an anecdote or two, perhaps to serve as a backdrop to how our local leaders fail our students? Just this week, two interesting things happened in DC ... first, because someone offered it, it was decided that our mayor should reside in a huge mansion on vast acreage in a predominantly affluent area of the city, which will just happen to locate him as far as possible from those inner city schools we've all be wringing our hands over. And second, despite a majority vote in an election some years ago to impose term limits on our political "leaders", the DC City Council (they also of the limits) simply, by majority vote, decided they would have none of it, that the people's vote had created an unconstituional effect, and thus they would not follow the voters' decision. Everyday, in every way, I can sense my own need to follow Charlie Brown's lead and utter "good grief." But instead, I shall merely pen a ciao, and stow away my soap box for another afternoon. Thx for your patience, as usual. Ciao

Please excuse ... of course I meant to say that using the SAT might NOT be your strongest suit ... my two fingers betrayed me. :&gt; Ciao

To L - Actually, I agree with pretty much everything you said... I mentioned DC schools because you wrote that you see problems there. I just don't think there's any one group to point a finger at: faculty, administration, politicians. You're absolutely right about both political attitude and lack of funding. <BR> <BR>I was responding to "getreal"...

"The perfect school for most is the home school." <BR> <BR>Wow, now that's saying something, particularly since so few kids have a parent at home who could home school them. I'm sure that home schooling works for some people, maybe many people. Who knows? But I'm very well educated, and I can't imagine home schooling my kids. There's lots of things I just don't know or do well, like explaining geometry, for instance. Sure, I could learn, but who would cook, clean and run the house if I were brushing up on math, science and social studies all the time. For me, I'm hoping that having the kids go to a decent school and turning off the TV will do the trick.

Sorry, but need to add one more thing about our political situation ... which I hope everyone recognizes as unique (to say the least). Our local elected leaders are divided. Our board of education (school Board members) is not free to run the schools ... and they have been ineffectual (although have been the highest paid board members in the entire US). Our school management was taken over by an outside body. Our city has been run in recent years but a control board of outside poeple (who controlled the mayor). Our mayors ... well I'll leave that one alone. At least we elect them now ... instead of Presidential appointment when I first came to DC. Our locally enacted laws all have to be confirmed by both houses of Congress, or they cannot go into effect. Our budgets have to be approved by both houses of Congress ... we even have our own subcommittees in Congress. How many cities can say that? Congressmen are free to dictate to our city ... even to the point of threatening to withold our funds if we do not give our Metro stations the name they prefer. We depend on a so-called "Federal payment" because most of the valuable land cannot be taxed ... the Fed. Gov't. sits on it, and nobody taxes that guy! We have more demonstrations that anyone, and none has anything to do with DC, but we must handle them and pay for them. And we cannot get reimbursed for that until the US park Service tell us what we're getting. If we vote on a measure unpopular to the President, he uses Justice to stop us through court challenge. Clinton did this constantly. If Congress disagrees with an initiative on our local ballot, we are not permitted to even count the votes for that. We have no voting rep in either House of Congress ... we have taxation without representation (Bush made sure he took off his DC plates that have this motto on it off his limos). We pay the highest Federal taxes per capita of any "state" but have no vote in Congress. We are 650,000 people, larger than some states. We have a mess ... and no wonder our school system is messed up. What could be normal in this abnormal sitaution? But don't get me started!! Ciao

On the contrary, for the last forty years governments (local, county, state & national) have been tossing money at education like drunken sailors at a strip joint. Those are the facts though the Education Lobby propagandize to the contrary. The results of pouring money at public education have been dismal. If you love your kids, pull them out of the failed public schools.

Geez, no wonder that UK 11 year old wants a school like the ones on tv. REAL US schools and their politics stink! <BR> <BR>The TRUTH is once a system that works is in place, the muddle-muckers want to change the structure for an "experimental prototype program that has been proven at a Key-Lighthouse-Superhuman school in a Euro-Slavic-Asian country that no one has heard about. Takes about 3 years to convince a rotating school board to bite into one of these, and by the time it is instituted, the experimental programs have been proven bust. TIME TO INTRODUCE A NEW PROGRAM!!! <BR> <BR>Rants to continue...

Okay, Frank, I think I see where you're going with this ... lower property taxes (lets divert it to more trash collection and leaf pick-up) ... close down those crummy, non-performing things called "public school" (use the land for more rental condos) ... lets see, what am I forgetting ... oh, yes, vouchers ... and I see the word "parochial" ... am I getting the picture? Lets see, W. will give your kid $1500-$2000, maybe (you probably have none) to shop for that better school ... gosh, that amount will go a long way. By the way, he's not funding every kid to move ... only a tiny percentage. But you know what you're facing: a survey of the so-called better private schools in our metro area turned up this starting admission: NO OPENINGS. Nobody can accommodate the voucher kids ... no room. And $1500 is no inducement to build more. So, you pull them out of public school, reduce the money the school gets, end up teaching them at home, or ... well, Frank, complete the picture for me, please. And eventually they get accepted at Harvard. By the way, take a close look at the education tuition credits in Bush's tax cut ... they kinda fade away in a few years. Well, we all knew that, didn't we ... afterall, who is this cut for anyway? Frank, better rethink it, guy. Your way isn't going to fly. Ciao

Help ... isn't somebody gonna help me rebut there buttskies? Killjoy ... IF you knew anything about school boards you'd know they are the most conservative bunch of folks you're ever likely to encounter. To think that a school board would go for the change scenario you're thinking of is not to think at all. And to suggest that these folks rotate ... heck, election for life is more like it. In fact the real issue is how do you keep board setting policy and not micro-managing superintendents and other school administrators. Ideas just like the voucher, no legs, none at all. Ciao.

Dear L, <BR> Though you did not respond to what I actually wrote (40 years of tossing money at education...), you have interesting thoughts which I'd like to respond. First, I am against vouchers. Once a private school accepts a kid with vouchers, the government will eventually get a say in how the school is run. Second, I do not want tax money diverted to programs that I might use (you imply trash and leaf pick-up) because I don't use them. I pay a private trash man, Frank of DEW, to pick up my trash. I run over my leaves in fall with my 52" Murray lawnmower so I am a self-contained leaf service. Third, as a Greenie of the Right, I am against more rental condos built anywhere. In my rural Chesapeake Maryland county, I have fought developers tooth-and-nail to keep the land unspoiled, unfortunately with little success as developers have bought both political parties in Queen Anne's County. Fourth, I would never recommend Harvard to any kids who wanted a balanced education. The intolerant Left rules the roost at Harvard and very little dissent is allowed. Conservative speakers are regularly shouted down by "liberal" students at Harvard. Fifth, my wife is homeschooling my kids so I am confident my way is "going to fly." Thanks for the debate, L. You are a spirited gal and probably lovely to look at too. Buona sera.

Phew! Thanks everyone, I thought I might get thrown out of the forum for asking such a non-travel question. I have read them all with interest. Metal and gun detectors!! I'm glad it hasn't come to that here. Do you think that a lot of the problem starts with the loss and lack of respect our children are having for "the system", adults in general and anyone in authority? So many of the "hardcore" troublemakers seem to suffer from the "I-know-my-rights" syndrome and rebel against everything. Our children moan about wearing school uniforms, but quite often, when they have taken a vote on it, the majority want to keep them. It brings everyone to a similar level, keeps the school looking (reasonably) smartly turned out and saves their own clothes for out of school time. I could go on, but don't want to soap box you with trying to understand the english school system (we won't even go into the public/private school systems, I withdrew our daughter from one) I'll keep reading your replies though, it certainly seems to be a thread that sparked a few! Thanks, Esme

Oh! By the way, on TV here we have a couple of programmes based on british schools (Grange Hill and Byker Grove) which pride themselves on being a true reflection of our school life, the kids love them as they relate to all the kids on them and their problems - drugs, exam stress, teenage pregnancy and relationship problems. Perhaps you can get them over there somehow - I enjoy watching them sometimes, just to keep up to date with the kids!

Esme, <BR>I can't believe that all the schools are as above. <BR>The schools in my town are rated one of the best in the state. The facilities are older, but maintained. The kids get relatively up to date books. There are sports programs for all. There are afterschool activities that a lot of the kids participate in. <BR>No metal detectors. We had a "computer scare" where someone e-mailed something inappropriate a few years ago, but the local police, DARE officer, principal, teachers all got together with the students to track down the culprit. (I believe it was someone from another state trying to get into the system to muck things up.) <BR>My kids started in this school system. Now they are in a Catholic school program so that they can get some religious education and values along with the academics. In fact, there are a number of UK families who are in the US for a few years that have joined our school for a good education. The parochial schools give a good qualilty education and teach the VALULES and RESPECT that is often lacking in public schools these days. They have uniforms. They have rules which the children must adhere to. <BR> <BR>I recall years ago, when growing up and going through both the Catholic and public school systems, that we had a "dress code" in our public high school. Boys had to wear a shirt and tie and nice pants, girls had to wear skirts/dresses that had to be a certain length. The year I graduated, they did away with the dress code. I thought it was a bummer at the time, since the incoming class of girls were allowed to wear slacks (jeans were not allowed at the time by anyone). However, I also recall that there were few "incidents" by the children. The "dress code" nowadays in our school is a tee shirt that doesn't have inappropriate pictures/words on it and no hat. <BR>Our parochial school principal allows the children to wear their choice of clothes one day a month. She has said that during that one day, you can see a change in the children. On days with a uniform, the children understand that they have to behave a certain way. On the days when they "dress down," while the rules haven't changed, the children do -- they are a bit noisier when walking through the halls, for example.

Thanks for the interesting information, Frank ... I'm happy to know my impressions were incorrect. But I must take exception on one point - you wouldn't find me to be an interesting gal ... LOL ... L/Leone is not a female name. It's because I'm a Leo - and August 8. Yep, I've got one coming up in the not too distant future (sort of like the anniversary for IRS, no celebration is planned). Actually, you're not the first to mistake me for a woman (I do take it as a compliment) ... my partner tells me it's just my soft side coming out, and she says it's about time. Anyway, have a good day. Ciao

L, I'll now have to committ hari-kari for thinking you a girl. What the hell is this_madame Butterfly.

There are as many realities of school in America as there are sizes of community. Boston Public isn't far off for some urban areas, but at the other end of the spectrum are small schools in very non-diverse rural areas. And there's everything in between. <BR> <BR>But there are some constants. The atmosphere is education is nothing short of desperate, and there's plenty of blame to go around. At the very top is a basic anti-intellectualism and dislike of academic achievement -- America has never quite managed to reconcile its democratic ideals of everyone-equal with scholarship. The result is that we can cope with athletic or business competition, but the idea of competition for academic excellence is considered elitist and anathema to the American way of life. Bright kids are forced -- both by peer pressure and by school administrators -- to hide their abilities unless they want to be excluded and ridiculed as nerds. This pressure is a large part of why some minorities have yet to catch up. <BR> <BR>Another issue is the priority given to bureaucracy and ancillary services over education -- compared to schools of a generation or two ago, we have fewer teachers per 100 students but many more administrators, counselors, heads of athletics, etc. etc. etc. <BR> <BR>Add to that a deeply adversarial relationship between teachers who have evolved an "I'm the expert; I know more about your child than you do; let me be the boss; don't tell me what to do" attitude over the years, versus parents who have evolved an attitude either of "fix my kid, I pay you to make him smart; he shouldn't have to do homework or compete with others; if he fails, it's your fault." Once upon a time, the idea was that parent and teacher were a team who joined together to foster learning in the children. Not now. <BR> <BR>If kids have a lack of respect for people or learning, it's only because they're reflecting what they see among parents, teachers, and administrators -- who do not respect each other, who fight over external political issues in school board meetings, and who are more worried about territory and/or finances than whether we're trashing our future brain resources. <BR> <BR>Has nothing to do with liberal vs. conservative -- they both think academics are stupid (read Frank's comment about Harvard) and they both decline to act at the highest and broadest levels to salvage American education. At a result, what used to be the showcase educational system for the world is now a sitcom travesty and an embarrassment for such a wealthy country.

I don't see why it ought to be so difficult to fix education in the United States. We only need two things: the desire and the funding. <BR> <BR>Here's what I'd do. First, education needs to take place year round. No long summer break where kids watch TV, play Nintendo, don't read, and forget most of what they learned. <BR> <BR>Second, the school day needs to be extended. I'd say kids ought to be in school from third grade up from about 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. That would allow ample time for PE, art, music and of course, the three Rs. It would help working parents and eliminate the unfortunate things kids do when they have too much unsupervised time on their hands. <BR> <BR>Finally, I think each school's parents ought to vote on whether there will be a school uniform. Majority rules. I, for one, would vote yes in a heartbeat.

Homeschooling - gee, I teach 4 & 5 year olds in a Bible class on Wednesday night. In my class, I have 2 boys already diagnosed as ADHD and on medicine. I also have another boy who is homeschooled. I'll take the boys on Ritalyn ANY DAY AND TWICE ON SATURDAY as opposed to the child who is homeschooled. He has NO CONCEPT how to behave in a group environment (12 children). Most homeschool children I've run across have been incredibly wierd. <BR> <BR>With that, my child attends a public school in Alabama. We are so horrible, she actually won the President's Award for Educational Excellence this year. (By the way, I'm being sarcastic when I say "horrible.")(My niece in a northeastern state made the honor roll in high school and promptly flunked out in college.) <BR> <BR>Esme, another lesson needs to be taught here. Please find the programs that show how they do all the stuff to make things look real on camera. It's really fascinating, and an excellent way to make sure your daughter realizes that what you see on TV IS NOT REAL!

No, don't do anything rash, Frank ... on this site one has unlimited chances ... the fact that I'm still posting here is the best evidence I can offer. And believe me, you are far from the first to do the gender thing. Ciao

Thanks for the try, L, but I'll give the wife and kids a kiss goodbye and drop myself off the Chesapeake Bay Bridge. Farewell all.

Teech makes some very good points. I also blame the PARENTS to a great extent for our poor education system. Too many are hands-off and, just because they pay property tax (unlike in Europe, Esme, most pre-college education funding comes from local/county property taxes), expect the teachers to make geniuses out of their little sweeps. Parents, if you don't have any intellectual curiosity and if you never crack a book, you're kids will follow your example and be just as intellectually dormant.