A new approach by a restaurant.
 

I travel a lot. I eat out a lot. And I understand the problems that restaurants must endure. I'm usually the one who is offering the strongest defense for servers for example.<BR>But last night I experienced something new. We went to a relatively new and fine, very upscale restaurant here in Naples, Florida -- Stoney's Steakhouse. In fact I've even endorsed it here several times. Last night we met clients there -- it was their second time there, our third time and we all have loved the place. We ended up spending just under $300 for the four of us.<BR>But when we sat down for our 7 PM reservation, we saw a little notice conspicuously placed in the center of the table. In effect it said, &quot;Please realize that your reservation entitles you to holding this table for a maximum of one hour and forty-five minutes. At that time we will need the table for other guests. We know you'd like to stay and we regret not being able to accomodate you longer than that. We guess it's our comfortable chairs&quot;.<BR>Last night was a typical meal there. We ordered cocktails when the waitress first came, she brought those and soon thereafter came back and took our order. At that point the timing of our evening was totally in the hands of the restaurant. After appetizers, salads, and being brought our main course -- we were still eating when we noticed that we had now been there our &quot;limit&quot;. We ignored it and one in our party ordered dessert and we had coffee, paid our check and left -- total time was 2 and a half hours -- a very pleasant evening. The only way we could have met their &quot;requirement&quot; was to not have cocktails but ordered immediately after sitting down, and giving up dessert and coffee. Please note this is a fine, elegant restaurant, not a diner or pancake house type place.<BR><BR>Today I called and asked to speak to the manager. I told him we were insulted by the signs on the table and would not be returning. He said that was too bad, but it was the owner's decision and he would be sticking to it. We loved this place, but now will not go back.<BR><BR>What do you think?

I think I wouldn't go back either. I might even consider writing a letter to a well-read travel or dining magazine. That owner clearly doesn't understand what his &quot;product&quot; and &quot;service&quot; are, i.e., he doesn't know his business, and the response you got from your day-after complaint was almost as insulting as the original sign. Very stupid to risk that kind of ill-will, especially since his return on your 2 hrs. was probably just fine. This is the wrong economy, moreover, to be taking such a stupid risk.<BR><BR>One might ask him how much rent he would charge for the chairs and table if you aren't buying any food or drink. How about just one chair?

<BR><BR>Part of me likes it; but part of me dislikes it.<BR><BR>I don't like people who dawdle, and we all know what I mean. They sit, and talk, and talk, and talk. Well past the point of desert and coffee. Hey, I'd like to sit down and eat, too, you know?!?<BR><BR>On the other hand, we pay a lot of money to go to restaurants like Patrick mentioned. (And I assume we all tip well to make up for the extra time we take. Afterall, if we take three hours for our meal, that means the waitperson will miss out on at least one tip.) So, they should cut us some slack. We're paying for the table, afterall.<BR><BR>On the other other hand, if the wait person screws up, or the kitchen messes up our meal and we have to send it back, thus making the meal take longer than our alloted time, does that mean we get paid for the restaurant taking too long?<BR><BR>It is, indeed, a conundrum.

I agree that this was very silly and stupid on Stoney's part. The truth is (read the &quot;Kitchen Confidential&quot; or other descriptions of the restaurant business) that the amount of time guests spend at a table is remarkably consistent and can be predicted pretty closely -- depending in part of course on how fast the service is. That &quot;one hour and forty-five minutes&quot; is probably what some consultant told the owner of Stoney's would be the maximum time guests could stay at table and Stoney's still make their profit.<BR><BR>Fine. But it's up to Stoney's service and kitchen to keep their part of the bargain up -- it's not up to the guests, especially since most will probably leave in good time once they don't want to eat or drink any more.<BR><BR>It is CERTAINLY a bad idea for the owner of a restaurant, where people go to socialize and have a good evening over food and drink that will cost much more than it would at home, to make punitive rules ahead of time that will reduce the comfort of his guests. What a terrible and seriously stupid idea.

What a poor business practice decision on the hands of the owner. <BR><BR>I love to linger and savor a fine meal, not get indigestion due to worry that I am going to be asked to vacate the premises any minute.<BR><BR>I am not surprised at the manager's reply. Some establishments really go above and beyond customer expectations in this tight market - especially with this economy when I think people may be scaling back on their outside of the home entertainment. <BR><BR>Personally, I have always dreamed of owning a restaurant. Not necessarily an upscale steak house, but a fine dining place. Wouldn't you be of the mind to let customers relax, enjoy their meal, dote on them the entire time and make such a lasting impression of caring that they would stay and enjoy cocktails after dessert and enjoy their dining companions?<BR><BR>I love staying at my table, enjoying the atmosphere and closing the restaurant for the night with my husband and friends..............<BR><BR>Now this has made me hungry for my favorite place like I described and my husband and me are home with the virus! Darn!<BR>

Patrick, there are a couple of very upscale restaurants here in San Diego which do the same thing. There are no cards on the table, but it is made clear when you make a reservation that they have two &quot;sittings&quot; for dinner, one at 6pm and then at 8pm. I have occasionally go at 8pm, but I will not pay hundreds of dollars for a meal and feel rushed. I find it disappointing that these owners do not seem to consider that dining is a social event. If someone just needs to eat quickly, there are plenty of less expensive restaurants.

Patrick, I copied some of your recent recommendations for restaurants for our two week stay in Naples this April. We had put Stoney's at the top of the list based on your earlier rave of the restaurant, and my husband's love of a &quot;quiet and refined&quot; atmosphere which you described.<BR>This is a terrible thing for them to do. We will be removing it from our list. I do not like being rushed, and from what you say the normal service would take longer than their suggested time. You have given us many other great Naples suggestions, so I don't think we will be going hungry without Stoney's!

I agree with you, Patrick -- I would never eat there again. <BR><BR>Barbara, I've also been to restaurants that have two seatings per night -- this is made clear when you call for reservations. That is quite different than the practice at Stoney's -- it impacts every table that comes in, regardless of when. <BR><BR>I can understand this at a Denny's, not at a fine restaurant. Ridiculous.

AMAZING! Here in Seattle my beau and I eat out regularly. Our adverage dinner for 2 is generally $150+. I would never spend more money than time at a restaurant! haha! Seriously though when we go out for a nice dinner that is our plan for the night. We spend usually 2 hours on cocktails, dinner and dessert. <BR><BR>With so many restaurants to choose from and so many other ways for us to spend our discresionary (sp) income I wouldn't think twice about never going back there again. <BR><BR>Patrick, you should send them this link so they can see for themselves what a poor business decision they have made. <BR><BR>Wendy

Good idea, Wendy, I'll do that. In discussing this with someone today, they questioned whether this will happen in the summer as well. Naples is in the height of the busy season so perhaps they just want to get all the money they can. Yet the sad part is they are chasing away the locals like us who would normally be their &quot;life-blood&quot; in the off season. I suppose come May they will stop those silly little signs, but it won't make any difference, because we locals -- the only ones eating out then --<BR>will have long abandoned the place.<BR><BR>Edna, for an upscale steakhouse, you might try Preston's. It's a wonderful very small, very quiet and upscale place with big comfy booths. We have a friend who had throat cancer and sort of whispers -- so we always need a quiet place to enjoy with him, and Preston's is perfect. Sounds like the sort of place your husband would enjoy. In fact the steaks are even better than at Stoney's, but it will be a bit pricier. And we have never been chased out of there or put on a schedule. Their phone is 239-435-1986. You would need a reservation in April!!

i've run into this once. but, it was made very clear when we made our reservations and it was 2 hrs &amp; 14 minutes which seemed reasonable. if you don't like this policy at restaurants i guess you either have to go for the &quot;late&quot; sitting or take your business elsewhere. i certainly hope this doesn't become a common trend.

I hate when owners and managers use &quot;signs&quot; or &quot;placards&quot; to enforce rules. It's so passive and DOES NOT WORK.<BR><BR>The policy should be unposted. The waiters and waitresses should be trained to enforce the rule at their discetion. E.G.: Someone has ordered ice water and a salad. They keep getting free breadsticks for 2 hours. Ok, at that point, they should be asked to leave or to be moved into the bar. If someone has ordered every course and is SPENDING MONEY on marked up desserts and cocktails, the rule shouldn't be enforced. <BR><BR>-Darvy

I've always thought that taking reservations in a nice restaurant must be a challenge. You don't want tables going empty, but you don't want customers with reservations having to wait beyond their reserved time because people haven't left the table long after they've consumed everything, sometimes even paid the check.<BR><BR>No Way I would ever patronize a restaurant, though, with those prices that enforces a time limit. <BR><BR>It's up to the restaurant to accomodate the guests - not the other way around. There are plenty of subtle (and some not so subtle) ways to encourage customers to pay and leave once they're finished. <BR><BR>It would seem that Stoney's owner, however, has developed some sort of (self-serving)formula to maximize table turns. They &quot;know you'd like to stay&quot; but are &quot;unable&quot; to accomodate you? That's just ridiculous. The part about the chairs would have made me leave and dine elsewhere. <BR><BR>I've known many restaurant owners. Some of them do themselves in by doing what's good for them without regard for the customers.<BR><BR>

Most eating establishments with buffets have time limits; it seems very unusual to have one for a sit-down, fine dining restaurant. Is their business SO good that they can afford to lose a customer? Actually, they say that when you lose one person's business, you lose them and at least 12 other people (because like you, they will tell their friends, right?). So hopefully Stoney's will change their policy and have a make-good promotion to win you back.

This is toooo weird! First they insult you with the notice, then they don't bother to enforce/accommodate their own rule. Seems weird. Was the place full or empty, Patrick?<BR><BR>Unlike the other writers, I *would* eat there again. If you enjoyed the food that much, and they didn't count the time anyway...I'd go back. However, first I'd call back and ask to speak to the owner, not the manager, to get the straight story. Sounds like the manager hasn't bought into the policy either - and for good reason.

Yes, Patrick... I would print this thread out and send it along with a letter from you indicating your home address. You DESERVE a better reply than the one you were given. They obviously do not care what the 'locals' think of their business decisions. They need to be reminded that there are OVER 365 restaurants in the Naples area (so many restaurant selections that one could visit a different one every day of the year and still not hit them all). They also need to look at Annabelle's on 5th Avenue and see how they chased away the locals with their poor business practices. And yes, there is that season that lasts about 9 months called 'summer.' Just MHO.<BR><BR>Happy Trails,<BR>Paul

This conversation is hillarious! Can you EVER imagine it happening on the European board? Lingering is essential at European eateries.<BR><BR>America is so backward is so many ways - glad everyone is putting their money where their mouths are. It's the only way bad business will learn.

To answer the one question above, yes the restaurant was full when we arrived at 7, but at least half empty when we left at 9:30. No they didn't chase us out, but I think that is minor, the insult was done. How can you enjoy your meal, when they have essentially told you that you are not welcome to enjoy yourself. Our waitress was also obviously outraged with the whole idea and when she saw us sitting there commenting on the sign, she removed it from the table. Obviously, neither management nor the staff agree with this policy.<BR><BR>We also spoke briefly with the hostess on the way out and expressed our &quot;outrage&quot; at the sign. She mentioned that it was really geared for the earlier crowd. In other words they don't value them either, I guess. Although most restaurants are normally dead before 7 or so, they don't offer any specials and will encourage people to dine early, but only if they are sure to leave quickly so the second seating can come in.<BR><BR>And yes, this would never happen in Europe. I remember a wonderful little portside place in Portofino where we stopped by in the afternoon to make a reservation. The guy asked us which table we would want and we pointed one out. He put our name on the table. I said, &quot;don't you want to know what time?&quot; and he said, &quot;no, this is your table for the evening&quot;.<BR><BR>To Paul, an interesting side note. There was a large ad in the paper just yesterday. Annabelle's is for sale!

Patrick,<BR>I too will take Stoney's off my list for any return visit to Naples. It is sad that a restaurant such as theirs cant see the damage this type of placard and policy can do, unfortunately proabably not until its too late. Which in their case will be come summer, as you stated. <BR><BR>I have a similar story, though not so blatant as a placard: someone I know well dined at a particular &quot;high end&quot; restaurant (steak house), by far the nicest and most expensive in our city. He went there at least once a week, sometimes even twice, usually bringing guests, family or clients, usually 4-6 people for dinner, lots of wine, lots of food, lots of after dinner drinks. This went on for years! Had the same waiter every time. One night, the maitre d came over just as the plates were being cleared and coffee and liquers were being ordered. The request: we are busy this evening, you will have to take your coffee, liquers and dessert in the bar. I'm sure by now the bill was at least 400-500, he stood up, paid and left, never to darken their door again. And they didnt care. Never called him, never even bothered that they had lost a long time very regular customer. You can be sure, that restaurant was bad mouthed for eons. It boggles my mind how a business can be so clueless, such as Stoney's, to alienate their patrons. <BR><BR>Definitely find somewhere to enjoy your steak!

They can do whatever they want but you also do not have to go there....

The restaurant served you in a leisurely fashion and obviously did not have a problem with the amount of time that you spent there. On the other hand, they have the policy clearly posted so that they can point it out when others come in, order an appetizer and dessert, and then linger over coffee for 90 more minutes while other diners could have been accomodated. <BR><BR>I would choose a restaurant based on the food, service and ambiance and not worry about some silly little notice that has nothing to do with me.

You are totally right, joesource, about choosing a restaurant for the food, the service, and the ambiance. That's what I do. Having a sign on my table telling me I am not welcome after one and three-quarters hours totally ruins the ambiance for me. Ambiance has to do with how welcome a customer is made to feel, so they have failed me in that respect. Maybe some can ignore it and say, &quot;oh that doesn't apply to me&quot;, but I don't feel that way. If it's on my table I think it does apply to me. If they have to insult reasonable diners to take care of a few unreasonable ones, then I feel it has ruined the ambiance for me.<BR><BR>And you are right about the service too -- which extends to the manager and maitre'd. With the reaction I got from those last two (who have apparently never learned how to handle customers), I now have two of the main three reasons to strike it off my list -- the ambiance and the service. In Naples there are dozens of good restaurants who can give me all three.

The sign was an unfortunate visual indication of the owner's poor judgment, but my interpretation would have been that as long as I'm ordering and dining, I am welcome to stay, and that includes lingering over coffee, but *not* to extreme. They certainly wouldn't have hustled you out at 8:45 even if you'd just set your forks down and drained the last of the coffee. I'm not defending the note, it was absurd, but I can understand the problem they are trying to address, albeit rather crudely. Turn those tables!<BR><BR>Tampa's Berns Steakhouse has addressed the issue and accomplished the same goal with their &quot;dessert room&quot;. It's a genteel maneuver that allows you to dine, then vacate, without it seeming that you are being ousted from the money making segment of their operation, but that is precisely what is happening. The dessert room has to be reserved at the time you sit down to order dinner, and who knows then whether or not they will want dessert. If you decide after you've eaten, the wait to get in is over an hour, simply because it is a time when people sit and visit (and you can't wait at the table you just dined at--you wait at the bar). <BR><BR>So, there is a problem, but there are approaches that work, where you feel &quot;privileged&quot; to go on to something else, and those that only offend...but both were intended to accomplish the same goal.

<BR><BR>I think the card was a rude way of telling their customers about the policy. BUT -- times are tough out there, and tables need to be turned. What good is a great restaurant if it goes out of business?

There was a wonderful restaurant here in Toronto some years ago; it was relatively small, and they generally served dinner in two sittings. When you phoned to make a reservation, you were advised that if you wanted the earlier sitting, they would like you to keep in mind that the table would be needed for the second sitting, a couple of hours later. If you reserved for the second sitting (you were also told this at the time of making the reservation) you could linger as long as you liked. There were no signs anywhere, and nobody ever seemed to be troubled by the idea, since it was obvious that there was a limited amount of room. I guess there's more than one way to accomplish the same thing.

I can't resist this thread, Patrick.<BR>And I couldn't agree w/you more. The<BR>owner is obviously not a people person, needs better business acumen plus a copywriter &amp; may have to hire a PR<BR>firm to undo the unsavory taste this will leave on the public IF you forward these comments to him. While you're at it, cc<BR>The Food Editor of your local bugle.<BR><BR>BTW, just how new is this restaurant?

It opened last summer, I believe in July. It has only approached reaching capacity in the past month making reservations necessary. But I have not seen it approaching the place where there are two complete seatings, so it seems to me that staggering reservations would handle the problem quite easily. Seven is earlier than I'm used to eating, but we did that for our clients sake. Maybe we weren't rushed out at 8:45 because there were no parties waiting for a table. But if there had been I'm not sure what they would have done as we had just been served our entrees. Would they have said, &quot;sorry you can't finish that, your time's up&quot;, or would they have let us finish then said, &quot;sorry, no coffee and dessert for you&quot;? I am never offended for them to say on the phone that they have openings at say 6 and 8:30 or whatever, better than taking my reservation and then when I get there telling me I have to eat and run, and skip drinks and dessert, because they can't serve us all that in their alloted amount of time.

You're right; if you are alerted up front of their time policy you can decide whether you would be comfortable w/<BR>that time window.<BR>Business is difficult enough these days w/o having to also worry about ceding your table. And esp. at @ $300/4 .<BR>Wonder where Shoney's will stand profit-wise THIS July. do cc the food editor if you receive no response from their management. It's the &quot;regulars&quot; who pay the rent...not the snowbirds.

LOL, RHEA, if I forward this to STONEY'S, they will certainly get a kick out of being confused with SHONEY'S!!!!

Ok; so I need a prufreader! <BR>However which will have a better bottom line this July?

Well, Rhea since the local Shoney's with their cheapie all you can eat buffets went out of business a few months ago and boarded their windows, I'd guess that Stoney's will have the better bottom line regardless.<BR>Hope you didn't think I was slamming you for that typo -- but it was just too good to pass up!!!

That was a nice little laugh, Rhea, thanks! You know inflation has taken its bit in its teeth when a meal for 4 at Shoney's is $300! LOL Please don't anyone send this thread to Greenspan lest his glasses prescription has not been updated recently!

I'm glad I could provide some mirth...<BR>Now let's get back to the situation at hand, Patrick.<BR>You going forward w/this complaint or just venting? Cause I hope you are.<BR>

Thanks for the &quot;Heads Up&quot; on Stoneys, Patrick! Reminds me of something that happened a couple of years ago. I invited a friend to lunch to celebrate a &quot;significant&quot; birthday. I called the restaurant...a fine dining establishment... &amp; made a reservation for 1:30. When my friend &amp; I arrived we 'settled in' &amp; while perusing the menu we each ordered a glass of wine. Our food arrived around 2:15. When we finised we asked to see the dessert menu. &quot;Sorry. No dessert. We close @ 2:00!&quot; This was said as plates were whisked away &amp; the bill was unceremoniously dropped on the table! &quot;Not today!&quot;, I said. &quot;You aren't closing @ 2:00 today.&quot; However, as it wld have been extremely difficult to continue to enjoy our &quot;birthday celebration&quot; under these conditions, my friend &amp; I left. We went across the street for dessert. But, we never went back to &quot;the fine dining establishment&quot;! And, because this story soon &quot;got out&quot; a lot of other people did not go back too!

Hey Patrick, guess I won't be trying Stoney's. Actually, we kind of avoid the &quot;hot&quot; restaurants in &quot;high season&quot;. With this published attitude, this amateur restauranteur will probably not make it to next &quot;season&quot;. The Naples customer is very sophisticated and there are many options for good dining. The restaurant landscape in Naples is littered with &quot;one hit&quot; wonders. <BR><BR>If you see this, we should try the off-line lunch at Campiello or somethere maybe after the March rush. You suggested it sometime ago but that thread got purged by the Fodors police for a critical remark on one of their recommended restaurants or something. <BR><BR>LilMsFoodie

Well, since the flow of posts has slowed, I just copied off this thread -- all nine pages of it--and am sending it to the owner of Stoney's. Since I'm finally learning how to paste and copy here, I thought I might as well share my letter with you.<BR><BR>&quot;Last week we were extremely put off by the new signs on the tables telling us about our limited time allowed at the table. I understand what you are trying to do, and understand the problem if people linger too long. But to insult regular diners is another matter. Particularly ironic is the fact that we spent 2 and a half hours at our table, leaving immediately after being served our coffee and dessert. The only way your restaurant could have managed to get us out in the hour and three-quarters would have been for us to have ordered immediately when we sat rather than ordering cocktails first, and to have left immediately after the entrees – no dessert and no coffee. That is not the kind of restaurant I enjoy dining in.<BR><BR>I was equally put off by the attitude of both the hostess and the manager who I called the next day. Basically, both said, “too bad, that’s the owner’s decision and that’s the way it’s going to be.”<BR><BR>I spend a lot of time on a travel forum – message board – sponsored by Fodors, the travel guide people. I have become sort of an “expert” recently for the many questions visitors from all over the country are asking about Naples – particularly hotels and dining. I had recommended Stoney’s several times.<BR><BR>After my experience last week, I decided to post the situation on the message board, an open forum for travel issues. I thought maybe I’d find that your practice is common now, and I just hadn’t run into it during my many travels. I thought you might be interested in seeing the results posted by knowledgeable travelers over a few day period.&quot;<BR>

Oh, and yes, LilMsFoodie, let's do a Campiello lunch, maybe in April.

I may just have to fly down there at Easter and meet up with you two!

Patrick, the email addresses are no longer in the old posts and mine never was but I remember we have the same internet provider so email me at lucypetunia@..........<BR><BR>Be not afraid, that is not my name. <BR>LilMsFoodie<BR><BR>More the merrier, Paul

Patrick: Please let us know if you receive a response!<BR><BR>I'm guessing the owner is inexperienced in the restaurant business. Perhaps a &quot;situation&quot; arose a time or two, or this was conceived as a brilliant solution following a very busy night when patrons were turned away.<BR><BR>The owner, no doubt, found his cards clever and amusing, rather than ridiculous and offensive.<BR><BR>I'm sure you will agree that there's a huge difference between eating out and dining out. It's not just the prices, but also the level of service. When I want to dine and will be paying premium prices for the &quot;experience&quot;, I expect a leisurely paced meal, all during which I am taken care of, at my own pace.