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I would guess that maybe a so-called "efficiency expert" (maybe a son/daughter or nephew/niece with a new MBA) talked the owner into trying this approach. <BR>I worked in a store once whose owner got talked into another attempt to improve efficiency. The tactic backfired, annoying customers and staff alike, and when the "expert" (a 25 yo MBA) offered yet another suggestion, he was politely but firmly refused. I also worked at a publisher where the HR director was getting her degree in management through evening classes. With every course, the employees became her test subjects. We went through half a dozen ways to improve "time management"--each one worse than the one before, until there was a mass protest and the publisher agreed to make the HR director stop treating us like lab rats.
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By the way, I will not be getting a response from Stoney's as I am not including my full name or address with the comments. I really don't care to hear from them anyway. A friend in the restaurant business has advised me to do it that way, as the owner could theoretically make things miserable for me -- threaten me for "slandering" him on the internet or some such nonsense.
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"A friend in the restaurant business has advised me to do it that way, as the owner could theoretically make things miserable for me -- threaten me for "slandering" him on the internet or some such nonsense."<BR><BR>Well, isn't that interesting?<BR><BR>I've known a lot of restaurant owners. In my observation, over the years, folks who go into business for themselves do so to be able to "run things" the way they want. Restauranteurs are no exception. <BR><BR>Some will take polite criticism or recommendations to heart and actually do something about it. Others just don't care, preferring to do things "their way". All of the latter have gone out of business.<BR>
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The note wouldn't have bothered me, I don't think, but if it did, and the restaurant's reply to your complaint was unsatisfactory, then it's simple, you shouldn't dine there anymore. <BR><BR>The restaurant may have been getting a lot of complaints from people who had reservations and were made to wait. How is a very popular restaurant supposed to handle this situation? Perhaps some constructive criticism, a better idea? If 20 people are waiting in the foyer at 9pm because most of the diners who entered at 7pm haven't left yet, that's also an undesirable situation. <BR><BR>You say that you "sat down for a 7pm reservation" but you didn't say what time you sat down. Was it 7:15? 7:20? The only real complaint that I would have would be if it was if the dinner took more than two hours and it was truly the fault of the service personnel. <BR><BR>Be reasonable. If a restaurant can fit two parties into a 4 hour period, and bring in $600, is it fair to ask them to settle for $300? They can either raise their prices, or ask for co-operation from all diners on busy nights.
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Personally, I think your complaint letter loses most of its validity by not having your full name on it. If I was a business owner and received a letter of complaint from a patron who didn't even sign it, I sure wouldn't pay much attention to it.
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After having had some horrible service at many "cheap" restaurants lately I would have been just as irritated as patrick. I can't get people to even bring me a fork on time when they have already brought me my salad. People really seem to be forgetting that they EARN tips. When we have good to great service we usually tip very generously. What if you service is so slow that you exceed that time limit and you are so irritated already that you haven't even had a relaxing experience? I expect more for your money. Yes, times are tougher. That is not the way to make a profit but it is a great way to loose lots of potential income. I for one would not eat there if I had the choice for fear of us being "kicked" to the curb.
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I just returned from Vegas and had dinner at the ESPN restaurant and sports bar located in the New York New York hotel. They also have the same type of notice prominently displayed in their menus. Our tab came out to $175.00 - thank goodness we passed on dessert and coffee.
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This has been very interesting, and I'm always intrigued to see that there are still people like joesorce who will tell abused clients that it was probably their own fault. That "tough noogies" attitude just adds to the general unpleasantness that seems to be invading the "hospitality" industry.<BR><BR>Patrick, I applaud sending this post to the owner, but I think you detracted from its impact by not including your name. The "perfect" defense to libel (slander has to be said in person, libel is something published) is truth, and nothing you wrote here wasn't true (presumably). Statements of opinion like "I think that stinks" are not libelous, which is why people can write letters to the editor. The restaurant would have been completely nuts to take you to court over this, because it would have gotten into the media AND they would have lost.<BR><BR>That said, I still think you should consider widening your complaint, because it will discourage other restaurants from doing the same thing. I don't know Naples but I'd be willing to be there is some publication -- newspaper, most likely -- that does restaurant reviews. (I'm not talking about one of those thinly veiled advertising glossy "tourist information" booklets, of course.) Send this thread to the reviewer himself or herself with your own comment that this is NOT the same as having 2 seatings and IS an inhospitable practice. The reviewer may ignore it but chances are the newspaper is always looking for something to write a column about of local interest.
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Patrick did you see that your thread is on the Fodor's home page? Nice job! <BR><BR>Wendy
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Wow Patrick...if you haven't followed the link on Fodors home page, you need to do so! Fodors even contacted the restaurant regarding the cards on the table. (Stoney's didn't confirm it, but neither did they deny it.) I think that squeaky wheel might just have gotten some grease! Good job!!
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Thanks for the heads up. I never see the home page, as I'm bookmarked to come directly here, so I wouldn't have seen it. The whole town is buzzing. Talked with a waiter at Pazzo who said everybody is talking about those signs.<BR>And incidentally I found out a real surprise. I thought the owner of Stoney's was the developer of the big complex it's in -- as his name is Stoneburner. But it ends up the restaurant is owned by a long time restaurant owner -- Pate, who has about four or five other restuarants in Naples and several in Cape Cod, I believe. So the theory that it was somebody who doesn't know the business just went out the window. I can't believe they wouldn't confirm the signs to Fodors, they certainly did to me when I called. Maybe that means they removed them, or perhaps as one person suggested, they just leave them on for the early diners -- like maybe until 7, which would explain why they would neither confirm nor deny the report.
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Who says a bunch of travel obsessed people slacking off at work can't change the world! haha! ;)
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I remember seeing a note at MacDonalds with some time limit. Not sure if they still have it - the children grew up so we stopped visiting. Patrick, you must've felt like getting cheap service paying high price for it. I support you in your decision not to go back.
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Wendy, in case your comment was aimed at me, I do not work. I used to --very hard and long, in fact -- and have as a result been able to retire. So the only way I'm "slacking" at work is that I didn't hose out the garage today as planned.
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I don't go to steakhouses but no matter what kind of restaurant it was they would lose me and so many others I know.
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Patrick, I was referring to myself!!! LOL! I know you are retired, I'm just pretending to be!
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Well, never heard of a restaurant doing this before, interesting. <BR><BR>Just curiosity here though, because Patrick, you say you're retired, yet in your original post you say "I travel a lot. I eat out a lot," and "Last night we met clients there..."<BR><BR>So which are you, traveling businessman or retiree? *wink*
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Patrick, it shouldn't surprise you that they wouldn't confirm to Fodors, but my thinking is that refusing to deny is as good as a confirmation! Whomever Fodors spoke with realized what a stew they were now in. It's one thing if someone named "Patrick", "just" a Naples resident, calls complaining, quite another when a well-known and well respected travel organization such as Fodors is on the phone! If I were a betting woman, I'd place money on the fact that those signs are now gone. Again, well done!
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The signs strike me as tacky to the point of silliness, but the point is that restaurants can't have it both ways. If you give a party a reservation for a certain time slot, your kitchen and waitstaff need to be able to serve the meal within those constraints. <BR><BR>A number of years ago I was hustled out of a fairly nice restaurant because the table was needed for another party with a reservation. When I made the reservation initially the manager mentioned the time limit. It seemed like plenty of time for a normal dinner so I wasn't too worried. We skipped cocktails, ordered promptly, and dug in as soon as food arrived. There was still no way that we could finish within the allowed time. Service was simply too slow. Just before we finished eating our main course the manager come over and told us that the next party had been waiting way too long, so we would have to leave. If he'd been polite it wouldn't have been so bad, but he was barely able to control his fury.<BR><BR>Of course he alienated two sets of customers -- our party and the folks with the next reservation who had to wait so long!
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OK, nomopromos, I'm about 90% retired. I closed my interior design studio six years ago, but still do a little freelance work for old clients -- of which these people are my best ones!!<BR>Incidentally I told her on the phone about this whole project I got involved in and she mentioned that just the night after our episode, they had dinner at the "new" Ritz Carlton Golf Club here with other friends. They did linger after dinner that night. And the manager came over to their table asking how everything was. They remarked, "Oh my, everyone else has left, we need to go" and he apologized profusely, insisting he wasn't asking that they leave, but just wanted to make sure everything had been to their satisfaction. In fact, he brought them another complimentary after dinner drink and said -- we can't go for at least another hour, please enjoy yourselves. What a difference in the attitudes of these two places!
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Patrick, I'm sure we're all dying to know if the signs are permanently gone...And it would be even nicer to know that the power of the printed word changed policy. <BR>Come on --- be a sport; you've got us into it -- send someone in at 7:30 to walk thru to see if the tables are sign-less.
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Patrick: I know your posts on the Europe board--you are one of those persons who always looks at an issue from several points of view, and you believe in tipping!<BR><BR>I would think that the waitstaff must be very grateful to your stance on this issue. If the kitchen is slow that night, they can't go back there and cook your meal, but they're stuck with the policy written on the darn table.<BR><BR>And you are so right, as are so many other posters, about the real issue's being the sign. Most of us understand seatings, can handle a warning about early seating/time on the phone. But a sign on the table is the same as sending you to the principal's office to await some sort of punishment.<BR><BR>Bad, bad business decision.<BR><BR>We had a very awkward situation handled beautifully by a good restaurant here. They used to have a sort of living room area where, if all tables were reserved, one could not only order drinks but also order food. We loved it. We would meet other couples there and just lounge the night away. <BR><BR>One night we had spent about two hours there two other couples(and had spent around $500 among the six of us). The manager said, "I'm in a bind. Could you help me out. A group of people reserved this area--we thought it would be Ok this late--and they've been waiting at the bar for a half hour. They are not happy right now. Could I talk you into taking their seats at the bar and having coffee/dessert on us? I'd really appreciate it."<BR><BR>No problem. We not only happily ate dessert at the bar, but we also stayed another hour after buying an after-dinner drink.<BR><BR>You can bet we go back there frequently. The restaurant didn't punish the dinner--they just got rid of that area!
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<BR>Patrick,<BR>maybe it all doesn't matter any more, they will be having to wrap all the tables in plastic and duct tape soon!<BR><BR>
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For Marx Brothers fans, this thread inspires me to co-opt dear Groucho's song, and with a few minor modifications suggest to the restaurant owner that he have his staff sing it to every patron: <BR>"Hello, you must be going / We know you'd like to stay/ for a cocktail or cafe/or even a meal, say/ so hello...you must be going!" : - ) <BR>
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I read with interest your comments about the dining time limit. As an owner of an upscale Italian restaurant that has been in my family for three generations, may I offer a restaurant owner's perspective. In Connecticut, dining Sunday through even Friday is rarely consistent...sometimes quite busy, sometimes very quiet. We have no time limits on those nights. But Saturday...well, everyone wants to go out on Saturday night, and they want to go out at 7 p.m. We want to stay in business and make many diners happy for many years to come. But, if we are to continue to pay expensive labor costs, sky high taxes, health care, insurance, goods and supplies, advertising, etc., etc., we MUST have two seatings on a table on Saturday night. We understand you are paying a lot of money, we understand you are having a good time...then come to the later seating, and stay all night. But if you plan to camp out for the night, please come on Tuesday. We have to be able to count on the 150 people we serve on Saturday night, we will not stay in business to serve you just serving 75 people on our busiest night. We do not have little table top postings, but we do say to our early tables, particularly large tables, that we do plan on a two hour seating, will that be a problem? If so, I suggest they come at 8 p.m. and stay as long as they'd like. One of our pet peeves is when a guest books a reservation at one time, several people show up at that time, then the rest of the table comes a half an hour later. We have accepted other reservations for the evening, and guests who are this inconsiderate and do not honor their own reservation time get our night off to a bad start. We know we will have the next table showing up and no where to put them. Laura
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One thing you have not mentioned, fanta, is the length of time your restaurant normally takes to serve a meal. As I mentioned above, our night there was typical. We were seated, we ordered drinks at the waitresses first appearance, and we ordered as soon as you returned to take our order. But then it was over two hours before we had been served our meal and could finish eating it. We ordered coffee (didn't do refills even when offered) and had dessert WITH the coffee. The total time of the meal was 2 and a half hours. So why would they suggest that we should only be able to stay for an hour and three-quarters. Are they discouraging ordering drinks and desserts? Because it would appear that is the only way you could have a meal there and meet their time restraints. I suspect your restaurant is normally able to serve a complete meal in less time than that.
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Laura: You raise some interesting points.<BR><BR>However, your various business concerns (cost of labor, health insurance, etc.) are irrelevant to your customers, who are visiting your establishment for a fine dining experience well worth the tariff. If that doesn't happen, they won't return.<BR><BR>On the other hand, experienced restaurant owners know how to handle "inconsiderate guests". Most restaurants, for example, will not seat a party until all of them have arrived. And, they do not hold tables beyond 15-20 minutes for late-comers. And, they communicate all this when the reservation is made. Anyone who finds this unreasonable is being just that - unreasonable, especially on a Saturday night. And, why would any restaurant accomodate "inconsiderate guests" at the inconvenience of those who are considerate?<BR><BR>But, you say that everyone wants to reserve at 7PM and that you encourgage them to book at 8PM if they want to stay as long as they like, yet you indicate that you plan on a two-hour turnover, and hope for one turn per table on a Saturday night? That simply doesn't add up...<BR><BR>Surely as an experienced restaurant "owner", you know that most people are flexible. And, that, if you suggest 6:30PM or 6:00PM (versus, for example, 8:30 PM when they phone for a reservation) they'll be fine with that time. Even though, in the minds of most, "7PM" is the most common time that comes to mind when folks phone to reserve, unless they have plans before or after dinner, they are amenable to 6:30 or even 6:00. Everyone knows that when all the tables in a restaurant are seated at the same time, it's nearly impossible for the wait staff and kitchen to service everyone properly.<BR><BR>And, assuming your staff and kitchen are efficient, many, if not most, parties are "done and out" in about an hour. <BR><BR>Most restauraunts open earlier and stay open later on Saturday night in order to turn the tables two or more times. Then, they stagger their reservations accordingly. <BR><BR>In my opinion, it would behoove you to have a conversation with your patrons when they phone to reserve. <BR><BR>To suggest that they "please come on Tuesday" if they want to "camp out" is not what any patron has in mind.<BR><BR>Surely your experience indicates that "large parties" are typically a special concern. Often, they are travelling from various distances to meet up with one another, it may be a special occasion, and (to the disdain of your regular patrons) they are often quite loud and obnoxious, not to mention demanding of your staff (seperate checks?). So, if "everyone" wants to "go out at 7PM", why not ask "how many" first, then suggest a reservation time?<BR><BR><BR>All in all, there are any number of ways to manage reservations on a Saturday night, and to maximize your "turnover" without your patrons realizing that you are manipulating the times so as to service everyone as best as possible.<BR><BR>
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It's fanta again, just home from a Saturday night. Perhaps I wasn't clear. We don't take 7 p.m. reservations, we do stagger our reservation times...we do "manipulate" our reservations so customers don't realize we are manipulating them and of course we don't suggest they come on a Tuesday. We do plan on two hour turns, first seatings between 5:30 and 6:30 and second seatings between 7:45 and 8:30 and it usually all works out....We have our guests well fed from cocktails and appetizers to dessert in two hours....which is actually usually enough time for most tables. I was just trying to introduce another perspective. WE are a small restaurant and don't have a waiting area for customers so if most of the party has arrived we do seat them, even if a few people in the party are missing. And, after you've booked an early party of eight at 6 p.m. and most of the party has showed up by 6:30 p.m. are you really going to turn away the whole party because you are want the table to be open for the 8:30 p.m. turn? Fanta
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Fanta, please don't waste your time. Their minds are made up. There is no middle ground. "Restaurant Terror" must come to an end! Patrick had a pleasant 2 1/2 hour meal that was simply RUINED by that nasty little cardboard note!!! They have gone too far!!!!
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Patrick: Although it is probably too late, you should have included your name on the letter to the business owner. Truth is a complete defense to defamation/slander. The owner would not have sued you and even if he had, he'd lose his shirt in court.
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I think it is a bigger issue than a potential lawsuit, which really isn't, as you say, an issue.<BR><BR>This is a small town. I may later want to go back to this restuarant if they drop the silly sign thing. Or I may want to go to one of their other restaurants, or one of the very good ones practically next door. I don't need my name bantered about the local restaurant owners as a "troublemaker".<BR>Frankly since the owner knows it is a "truth", it really doesn't make any difference, as far as I'm concerned, what the name of a particular patron is who didn't like it. It's now clear to him how a nameless patron feels. My own name adds no particular weight to the issue.<BR><BR>And by the way, since some time has gone by on this, I understand the entire situation of the "signs" at Stoney's has become well known among the restaurants in town. The general feeling is that recently they have been putting the signs on the tables on the nights when they expect a big crowd or are overbooked on reservations -- pretty common this time of year. But apparently they are removing them for those who have booked for a time that would not require a "turn-over" of the table.
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I think it's important to make a distinction between seatings and time limits -- it's not the same thing and it certainly doesn't feel the same to the clientele.<BR><BR>I have no problem with a pre-announced policy of two seatings. It's clear to everyone what is expected, and it's up to the restaurant to make sure that the time allotment for the first seating is adequate and service is efficient enough to get everyone out before people arrive for the second seating. If someone lingers a little too long, it's perfectly acceptable for the host/hostess to ask that the table be freed for the second seating, because it was known ahead of time that there would be a second seating at a very specific time.<BR><BR>Time limits not attached to formal seatings are really something that only the restaurant personnel should be held to, not the clientele. It's up to the restaurant to know that the average time for service and comsumption of a meal is, say 2 hrs., more for larger parties, less for singles. And it's up to the restaurant to keep the service moving fast enough to keep up. And it's up to the restaurant to roll with the unexpected -- that's part of the reason for staggered reservations: to allow some flexibility as well as to pace the kitchen. <BR><BR>In any case, eating at one's own leisure and pace and enjoying the food and company should never be treated as misbehavior. It's why you're there.<BR><BR>
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That is quite a story, Patrick, and has created a good thread. I have been on both sides of that coin myself, as many others have also contributed. <BR>One New Year's Eve we had a second seating reservation for 6 people for 10:pm. The folks from the earlier seating never left the table until after 11:pm! We didn't even have our entree until after midnight.<BR>And one summer evening we were enjoying a second cup of coffee with another couple at fine restaurant on the coast, and were asked to vacate the table, and would we like to continue our conversation at the bar?!<BR>In both cases we were at upscale, expensive establishments, and in both cases we were remotely acquainted with the owners! In neither case were we offered so much as a coke for our inconvenience.<BR>The only thing I can say is we have never returned to either restaurant. And evidently the problem is more prevalent that we had realized! And although I recognize it as a sticky situation, I'm not sure what the answer is. Perhaps a card of sign could be used as a subtle way to encourage people to be polite. I think putting a time limit is way over the line, but maybe just a note to call for common sense in these high volume places is a good idea. Of course, the best solution is for our fine restaurants to adopt the European practice of reserving the table for the night!<BR>
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Both good comments about two seatings, and yes, I'm quite familiar with restaurants that do that -- sometimes not two blanket times, but staggered so each table has two seatings at various times -- which still allows the restaurant to make an adjustment should one table be vacated earlier than expected and another later for some reason.<BR><BR>But regarding that New Year's Eve situation -- I can't imagine a restaurant owner not smart enough to figure out that early diners on New Year's Eve are definitely going to want to linger. Allowing an "early" seating and planning to use that same table for a 10:00 seating should require enough common sense to tell them they need to set time limits on the earlier table. The restaurant was asking for trouble before they even started. I have seen many local ads for New Year's Eve here which list up to three seatings -- all with start and finish times so it is clear to all before they even book.
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