The REAL Buenos Aires
 

Hi, everybody!

I'm a new kid on this block, but I'm no kid, I'm 64. I have lived in Buenos Aires since I was born.

I have seen a few of the other kids (one of my nephews, among others) trying to drum up business here, which is OK, I guess, as long as they do it discreetly. However, sometimes I wonder how they manage to get any work done, as they spend so much time writing here. But, I guess that's their business, so I'll mind my own, which is the following:

I'm going to offer a free tour of a part of my town, which should be of interest to intelligent foreign tourists.

Why do I do it? Well, I hope to travel as much as possible during the years I have left and would like to know a lot of people from all over the world, who will be glad to reciprocate and show me THEIR town. THAT is my profit motive.

I like to call my tour "the REAL Buenos Aires", because, as opposed to just about 99,9% of the places mentioned in these forums, my guests will NOT find a single tourist in the places where I will take them. I used to work in the best hotel in Buenos Aires and the people who did this tour with me, raved about it.

The ideal number of people in each tour would be about four, but that is quite flexible.

This is my tour's itinerary:

After I'm finished with my work, at about 6 or 7 PM, I'd meet my tourists below the large clock (a traditional meeting spot) in the hall of the Retiro-Mitre railway station, across from the Sheraton and in front of the replica of the Big Ben, given to us by the British.

Ideally, my tourists should try to reach this place riding a "colectivo" (a local kind of bus), not a cab, because that is also a part of the REAL Buenos Aires. Anyone in your hotel should be able to tell you how to do it. If not, I'll help.

Bring some local coins, to buy your railway ticket (which is preposterously cheap) one way to Acassuso (a suburb north of Buenos Aires), where I live.

The point of the whole thing is travelling the way most Argentines travel. Being rush hour, the train will be quite crowded with predominantly white-collar workers going back home. This is the "best" railway line, because it serves a comparatively affluent neighborhood.

No danger at all, but obvious normal precautions should be observed, such as: no expensive watches or jewelry and only a little money and a camera, both kept in a safe place.

After half an hour of travelling, we will get off the train in Acassuso and I'll show you around the area. We may also enter a food market, to give you an idea of prices.

We will then wait to watch a deplorable spectacle few, if any tourists have ever seen: The "cartonero" train, which carries only the people who, after the late 2001 crisis, have to make a living rummaging through other people's garbage.

This is impossible to describe and something you have to see to believe and it will help you understand the Argentine crisis better than any book. Of course, I'll offer my own theories about why this happened and gaze into my crystal ball for the future.

This is quite stunning and far more interesting, from my point of view, than Evita's grave, for instance, a place to which tourists flock.

After that, we will proceed to one of several restaurants in the area, for dinner. Not a single tourist in sight, except you. Cost: MUCH cheaper than any of the places mentioned in these forums, which seem very cheap to foreigners, but are expensive for Argentines.

Then back to town in a "remise" (car with a driver), for a preposterous about 2 bucks per person (assuming 4 passengers). Tip the driver if he does a good job, please.

Any volunteers?????

I just visited BA in May so cannot take u up on your offer. I would only note that my "cicerone" gave me a similar experience and it was one of the things I loved about my trip. We went to la Lucilla where he lives, took a local bus and train, went to a parillaa where I was indeed the only non Spanish speaker - why don't u register with the Cicerones avrooster?

Well, Hobbes, thank you for your suggestion, but I am rather independent, so I prefer to do this on my own. La Lucila railway station, by the way, is two stops ahead of mine. I gather you did not get to see the "cartonero" train? Do you expect to come back any time soon?

well, I don't really know if you are joking about this or serious...as someone who takes a crowded commuter train every day betwee Baltimore and Washington, DC, the idea of doing it on my vacation is a bit silly (it's part of what I want to get away from), but then again, I travel also to see how people "really live."

However, if you are serious, I'm up for it as a way to spend part of my evening in BsAs. I'll be there in NOvember. I've also contacted the cicerone, and they sound great, but would meet with you too...that is, if you are serious.

send me an email [email protected] if you want to chat about this further!

ciao, Ellen
ps. of course, I'd reciprocate. and, I'll let you know now, the commuter train at rush hour is quite the unpleasant experience....

Hi, elr!

Of course I'm serious. Some people I took on this tour were quite well-heeled (they were staying at the best hotel in town) and they loved every minute of it, including the standing-room-only "colectivo" and the crowded rush hour train.

Did you read the first reply to my offer by "hobbes"?

When you reciprocate, I'm sure I will enjoy taking your "crowded commuter train between Baltimore and Washington, DC", but most certainly not every day, of course.

I'll write to your e-mail tomorrow.

well, I'm not all that "well-heeled," and never stay in the finest hotels! can I still join you?!

the more I think about this, the more interesting it sounds! I look forward to your email!

Hi, elr!

My offer says my tour "should be of interest to intelligent foreign tourists." You certainly can be "intelligent" while not necessarily "that well-heeled".

So, obviously, you can join me.

I've been reading your previous posts, trying to understand what you are looking for.

I'll write to your e-mail later. Gotta run now.

Anyway, we are FIVE MONTHS away from your visit, so we have plenty of time to plan.

just so you know, I also post on virtualtourist.com, if you need more insight. I go by "ellielou." No offense to anyone on fodors, which has been incredibly helpful, but the board there is a bit different, much more international, and more "backpacker" types. I "travel" between the two boards because they are both helpful in different ways....and I feel that as I traveler, I'm sort of in the middle...!

yes, five months is a long time to plan, but, then again, it gives me something nice to think about during my very long commute and when I'm "pushing paper" in my cubicle!

We'll stay 5 days in B.A. frm Dec.18, 2005.
2 couples, no kids anymore, ~55. We are interested in such tour. Sign us up for one of the days.

elr and Govacgo: Too tired today, will write tomorrow.

elr: I did some checking with a search engine for "Día de la Tradición" and found its festivities are celebrated in San Antonio de Areco on the Sunday after Nov. 10, which is Nov. 13, right in the middle of your stay. I do NOT promise anything, but since I've never been to it, I just MAY drive you out there (about 70 miles), if I'm in the mood, of course. It's bound to be crowded, which I do not like much.

To elr: I expect your comments about the "Día de la Tradición" information I gave you. You can e-mail me to [email protected] for further information about my "REAL Buenos Aires" tour. It seems we could do it on Monday, Nov. 14, but I am not quite sure you will still be in Buenos Aires on that date. Friday is not a good day for me to do my tour, because I'm always very busy from Friday afternoon until Saturday afternoon. I read other posts from you and it seems to me you are giving Uruguay too many days, but, of course, it's a matter of taste.

Got into virtualtourist.com, but it felt to me more like a site to meet people than to get travel advice, with all the pictures of the members and that kind of stuff.

I have also written a little on tripadvisor.com and I feel it is better, if all you want is advice from other travelers.

OK, Govacgo, we can do my tour on December 20 or 21. There are four of you and that is an ideal number of people for my tour, as indicated in my post.

We can go on writing here, or, if you prefer, you can e-mail me to [email protected]

Is there anything else you would like to know about Buenos Aires and/or my tour?

hi,
I was expected an email because I thought that perhaps we should chat off this board. And, I really appreciate your potential offer of driving all the way to San Antonio for the fiesta! I'm just afraid that it may be too tour bus oriented....

Regarding virtualtourist, that's what I thought at first, that it was some dating site; sure, some of that goes on, but I've made real, live friend there (I know people have on fodors, too), and it's easier to see if people have similar sensibitilies by how they put together their travel pages.

anyway, I'm writing to you on your yahoo account now!

see you there!

Hello. I will be visiting Argentina and Brazil in September and would be very interested in your real tour. I am going with a group and we arrive in BA on September 6 for a few days, don't remember the exact date we leave as I just booked the tour this week. I'm sure others in my group would also be interested. If you give me your email address, we can discuss further. Kind regards, Maura

Hi, Maura NYC:

We could do my tour in the late afternoon of September 6, 7 or 8.

As indicated higher up on this thread, my e-mail is [email protected].

I look forward to hearing from you.

avrooster, I think this type of tour sounds fascinating. We will be visiting Bueonos Aires on a South American cruise and will be in B.A. 3 days ( February 7,8 and leave at 5:00pm on February 9, 2006). We live in Southern California and would welcome recipricating. My email is: [email protected]

If you email me, please put something like Buenos Aires in the subject line or I'll delete it thinking it's spam.

Hi, petlover!

We have two dogs and 4 cats, mostly strays we picked up, so we are pet lovers too.

The problem with your dates is that early Feb. in Argentina is like early August in the US, holiday time.

So, I have no idea, at this writing, where I'll be at that time. It could most likely be in Bariloche, a place you certainly should visit when you get a chance (splurge on the Llao-Llao hotel and resort), but it could also be Disney (Orlando) or Anywhere, World.

Please DO write to me again in Nov. or Dec. Maybe at that time I'll know for sure whether I'll be in town or not in early Feb. 2006. It should be quite warm in Feb. and I think maybe a fodor's member called santiagov could have a good boat outing in the Río de la Plata to suggest, which would be perfect for that time of the year.

You are welcome to ask me anything else you wish to know about Buenos Aires. I'm no expert, but I should be able to at least point you the right way.

AVrooster, you have referred in a couple of your postings to the best hotel in Buenos Aires. In your opinion which is the best hotel in Buenos Aires?
If you were planning a trip to Tierra del Fuego from Buenos Aires, how would you do it?
Thanks. Your postings are quite interesting.

Hi, cmcfong!

The Alvear Palace Hotel is, almost indisputably, the best hotel in South America, particularly if you like "old style" hotels.

About Tierra del Fuego, I have never been there and I am not quite sure what you want to know, but I'd certainly fly there, if that is what you are asking.

Thank you, AVrooster. I was wondering if one should go there from Buenos Aires or whether one should go from Santiago. I will be coming from the USA.

cmcfong: I would say fly from BA. I would NOT drive from BA to Tierra del Fuego. I have seen you asking about that in another thread.

Extreme poverty is a constant in all major cities of the world.
I have seen Homeless people in New York doing what you describe as a "deplorable spectacle", rummaging through other people's garbage to find something to eat. I have seen it in Lima, Rio, Delhi, Panama, You name it and its not something I feel compelled to see.
What you show is maybe the other face of BA, not the real BA.

Thank you, AVRooster.

lelc00

You raise an interesting distinction between the "real" Buenos Aires and "another face" of BA. There are over 40 distinct neighborhoods in the city itself and probaly an equal number of suburbs in the Provincia or Buenos Aires...Each has its own face, or distinct way of life....As well, there are different faces for people in different socio economic levels...sometimes even within the same general class there are differences...Cartoneros, Piqueteros, workers in recovered factories, kids who juggle at intersections for tips, maids, etc...are all poor and lower-working class, but their lives are very different....and at the other end of the spectrum, I have a friend who lives in Martinez who has a second house near a ski area and collects Rolex watches....He makes obscene amounts of money in the construction business.....all are the "real" BA....just different faces of the same city...

The other point I agree with, though perhaps for different reasons, is a negative reaction to watching the poor try to eek out a meager existance...followed by dinner out at a nice restaurant.....Go to a recovered factory and buy some of the goods produced by the poor or volunteer in a Comedor (soup kitchen) if you are interested in understanding poverty in BA......just my two cents worth....

actually, I took the idea of seeing the "cartonero" train as something along the lines of confronting the reality of poverty that tourist rarely see, rather than as a "curiosity" of watching poor people as some spectacle.

I've been on work trips, where I've met with workers in border towns in Mexico and farmworkers in the Dominican Republic, and these have all been incredibly meaningful, and help gain a true sense of place. Of course, it is uncomfortable....I've spent time in SE Asia, where the gov't tries to make sure travelers don't really see the poverty....etc. Of course, there's plenty of povery in the U.S., too, including a few blocks from my house in Baltimore.

I don't need to defend AVRooster, since he could do it himself, but perhaps the use of the world "spectacle" was unfortunate. I found the idea of this trip was to be a "learning experince," and "real" was meant as opposed to "tourist," but was not meant to be the very last word in understanding the city....

Thankfully rather busy at this time, but this thread is now getting REALLY interesting.

Will post later today. Hopefully, there will be still more opinions by then.

Av rooster doesn't need to defend himself in my oponion...the service he has volunteered to provide is great, providing tourists a glimpse of life that gets them off the tourist trail. His independent service and the Cicerones organization provide a valuable service...the idea of riding a train and a colectivo to the suburbs is an excellent way of experiencing life as a Porteno experiences it.....

I would also agree that it is good to find out about poverty in Argentina instead of remaining at a distance from it....but I think a better way to do it is via volunteering or visiting a recovered factory and buying goods produced by the poor and not merely observing the poor...

drdawggy,
I agree with you. It is best to buy locally when one travels, and to stay in accomodations that support the local economy, and not in hotels, etc. that support large, U.S.and European -based hotel companies, etc.

However, the first step in helping people in poverty, is understanding the situation; I don't want to get into a discussion of global economics here, but I think it's important to see that all economic models have problems, and, in general, one size does not fit all....

drdawggy: since you are the acknowledged American expert on these matters, do you think you could help lelc00 who posted a question 11 days ago and got no replies?

av, I have stayed in many hotels in BsAs...but since I have not stayed at the Sofitel I did not respond to the original question..I have eaten in Le Sud, the Sofitel restaurant, and like it very much. I also like the Retiro location, but the rates are too high for me....I agree with you about the Alvear being the best hotel in South America, but the rates are too high there as well....I limit myself to an occasional glass of wine and a stroll through the lobby of this great hotel....

I think the best bargains in Buenos Aires are in the mid-price or four star range....many five star hotels cost as much in BA as in other parts of the world.....

This is what I love about the Internet. Everyone can have his say and we can agree or disagree or, even better, agree to disagree.

First, I’ll somewhat reluctantly concede two points:

1) Maybe, just maybe, “the other face of BA” would have been a better name for my tour, but I do not feel its name is THAT important.

2) Maybe, just maybe, as elr (my first “volunteer”) says: “perhaps the use of the word "spectacle" was unfortunate.”

Next I’ll reply, perhaps somewhat aggressively:

lelc00 has chosen to tour Buenos Aires by staying at the Puerto Madero Hilton, dining at “Cabaña las Lilas” and “El Mirasol”, going to “Señor Tango”, keeping away from “achuras” (some of which I like, but this is wholly a matter of taste) and labeling our famous Calle Florida as a “more insecure shopping zone”.

Well, that’s great and it’s his privilege. He’s certainly sticking strictly to the places which we locals call “for export” and maybe even hearing more English than Spanish spoken while he is staying in Argentina.

That is exactly the opposite of what my tour offers, because, as I promised in my first posting, “my guests will NOT find a single tourist in the places where I will take them.”

drdawggy “gets it” when he says: “the idea of riding a train and a colectivo to the suburbs is an excellent way of experiencing life as a Porteño experiences it”. But, then he adds: “volunteer in a Comedor (soup kitchen) if you are interested in understanding poverty in BA”. I wonder how many tourists would volunteer for this. If any, I know of a place where they could apply.

elr really “gets it” when she says: “the first step in helping people in poverty, is understanding the situation”. That is why I said in my first posting: “it will help you understand the Argentine crisis better than any book. Of course, I'll offer my own theories about why this happened and gaze into my crystal ball for the future.”

lelc00: comparing our “cartoneros” to what you have seen in New York, Lima, Rio, Delhi and Panama is not valid. Some of the people you saw in those places, most likely the ones in India, maybe were actually starving and that is why they were and I quote YOU: “rummaging through other people's garbage to find something to eat.”

What I said was that the cartoneros “have to make a living rummaging through other people's garbage”, which is NOT the same thing.

In fact, the “cartoneros” roam Buenos Aires picking up mainly old newspapers and cardboard, which they sell to be able to survive.

But the important point here is that this "occupation" did not exist until a few years ago and is clearly a by-product of the late 2001 crisis.

One question: besides yours truly and maybe drdawggy, have any of the people on this forum actually SEEN the "cartonero train"???

Drdawggy have a very interesting point of view.
I dont think I am being insensitive with other people problems, I see enough extreme poverty where I come from, and in a way that is not worth to mention, I get involved trying to fulfill those people immediate basic needs more than I am expected to do. I would never make a profit with their misery.

When I travel abroad for pleasure, I have a better way to spend my hard earned Dollars, I deserve it.
I really like the face of Buenos Aires I know, sorry to disagree.

By the way, I like Achuras; riñones, criadillas, chinchulines, morcillas... all are very tasty but the criadillas, wich I didnt dare to try.

I got robbed by to guys in calle La Florida, they took my camera and a US$100 bill, but that was my personal experience. I would not challenge my luck going to more insecure places.

lelc00:

You are not being consistent.

On 08/03/2004 you advised this forum to: "Keep away from the Achuras plate, wich includes testicles and other organs."

Now you say: "By the way, I like Achuras; riñones, criadillas, chinchulines, morcillas... all are very tasty but the criadillas, wich I didnt dare to try."

Did you change your mind?

Last year after my first visit to BA, I was shocked with the idea of eating organs,
But yes,I changed my mind after my second visit to your wonderful city due to a recommendation from Cintia from wowargentina.
I repeat Achuras are tasty, but I wouldnt dare to eat criadillas wich are bull testicles.

Great, then maybe, just maybe, you will change your mind and take my tour.

avrooster writes: "This is what I love about the Internet. Everyone can have his say and we can agree or disagree or, even better, agree to disagree."
____________________
AV, spoken like a true Porteno where to live is to have antimated agreements to disagree over virtually everything...But better by far than the internet is to have these types of discussions in a cafe over a cortado or mate cocido.....

If you are available during the day sometime soon, we can carry on our conversation. I'll buy your coffee, as long as its not in the Alvear (sonrisa).....

Hi, Doc Dawggy!

I work out of my home in Acassuso and normally go into town only on Saturdays, to deliver my work.

You can reach me at [email protected]

So far, no one, not even you, has replied to my question "have any of the people on this forum actually SEEN the "cartonero train"???"

I will email you.

No, I have not seen the cartanero train...but I have certainly seen cartaneros at work in a number of zonas, from Retiro to Belgrano. I have also worked in a Comedor within view of 9 de Julio, visited a recovered woodworking factory on Cordoba (near Bulnes, I think), watched Piqueteros blocking traffic and stating their case for employment, and ridden many a Colectivo, including bus 17 from Libertad/Alvear to Wilde, which certainly gives a different perspective on life in Buenos Aires....

Today I am off to Ciencias Sociales to hear a lecture on the impact of Neo-liberalsim on the economy of Argentina. I don't think it will be from a pro-American perspective.