Well, what a shame that so few bothered to read my posts properly before responding. Walkinaround - your response was especially idiotic.

Nowhere have I said that people shouldn't visit the US or that they shouldn't choose to live there. Or that they are at risk of imminant death from gun crime if they do. In fact, higher up in the thread I'd already stated that I'd visited on several occasions and would quite happily work there for a short period.

My sole comment on guns and gun crime was that it's a bit daft to keep argueing that gun crime is not an issue when statistics plainly show that the US has a bigger problem than practically every other Western industrialised nation, and is more on a par with some developing countries - hence I agreed with an earlier comment that is it strange that some US citizens would try to argue that this particularl point isn't an issue when statistics show that in many areas, it is. Raising the not-unreasonable question of ingrained patriotism.

This is a great board, with loads of brilliant tips, and I especially love the trip reports and people's photographs, but I surely can't be the only person heartily sick of the sneery comments and rampant sacrcasm that follow any attempt at discussing a serious topic. Is there any chance of having a debate on this (or any subject for that matter) where responses aren't littered with shouty block capitals and comments like 'Duh!' , 'Moron!', 'Good Riddance!'

BTW, I don't remember the equivalent thread 'Would you move to Europe' being littered with aggressive countering of every other point made for or against the move....

I love going to Northern Ireland to visit family, however, would I move there? Probably not. I would miss the stuff I'm used to in the US like a laundrymat in a town so I don't have to do my laundry in a sink. I think that people in Europe would miss the stuff they're used to also.

However, I do take exception to the "crime" in the US. I live in a small town (4500 pop) in northern Wyoming. I leave my house open unless I'm gone overnight. I don't leave my keys in the vehicle (unlike a lot of people) but I don't have to lock it. I did worry about my daughter after I heard about a young boy being kidnapped in a town of about 300 people. So crime can and does happen anywhere. Even though the $ is down against a lot of currencies, we still get great value. When I was in NI in April, some foods were twice what they are here (milk $4, minced steak...aka hamburger $8/lb).

As far as health care, universal is great but you are paying dearly for that "privilege". Your taxes are much higher than ours are and you have to wait to get the service. I'm fortunate because my husband has health insurance through his retirement ($169/month). Yes, we do have to pay for some of the services but I think it's well worth it based on what I know of the health care system in the UK at least. My relative lives 40 miles from Belfast but can take an ambulance home from hospital since she doesn't drive. How much is this costing the system?

Sorry, as much as I would love to live overseas, the cost is not worth it.

Nikki - good point :-)

Of course I don't imagine everyone or even a majority feel the same way, and I did point out that I haven't been to the US so I'm only going on general impressions...

Really I listed my problems with moving to the US in order of importance. To me, the main reason it's not feasible because I just couldn't leave my home for somewhere so far away...

"Actually we kind of do rule the world. If we wanted it tomorrow it would be ours. It's not being ignorant, it's just the truth."


Oh my goodness! Tell me you were being sarcastic. No one could really be that grandiose!

According to a report on Fox News from May 2008, "one in eight U.S. high school biology teachers presents creationism or intelligent design in a positive light in the classroom, a new survey shows, despite a federal court's recent ban against it."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,357181,00.html

1 in 8 is many to me... (note 'many' does not mean the same as 'most').

<i>My sole comment on guns and gun crime was that it's a bit daft to keep argueing that gun crime is not an issue when statistics plainly show that the US has a bigger problem than practically every other Western industrialised nation, and is more on a par with some developing countries - hence I agreed with an earlier comment that is it strange that some US citizens would try to argue that this particularl point isn't an issue when statistics show that in many areas, it is. Raising the not-unreasonable question of ingrained patriotism.</i>

But you don't seem to be reading the responses to that post, nor the statistics that you are talking about. The point being made is that, while gun crime is more prevalent in the US than in Europe, this is not the same as saying it is prevalent enough that it is rational to base your decision to not live in the US because of it.

This is particularly true when you take into account the fact that gun crimes tend to be relatively isolated, geographically. It is the rare tourist that would ever have occasion to visit one of those neighborhoods and most any European moving to the US would not be living in one of those neighborhoods, either. Heck, looking through the lists of Boston homicides I posted above, roughly 90% of them took place in neighborhoods where I rarely/never set foot in, and I lived in Boston for the better part of 13 years. And it wasn't a case that I avoided them because of crime, but rather that there was simply nothing (shops, cultural facilities, transit hubs, etc) in those neighborhoods that would ever draw me to them.

This isn't patriotism, this is about putting in just that little extra effort to truly understand your risks.

The level of violence you are exposed to depends heavily on your choice of venue - no matter what the country.

The U.S. has Detroit and L.A. But Europe has soccer. I'd feel safer in most major U.S. cities than in any European city where a major soccer event is held.

I'm sad to hear that the poor folk of Northern Ireland are reduced to doing their washing in a sink because there are no laundrettes. At least, they have stopped bashing their undies on rocks in the river.

How remarkably smart from Shuler-- citing FOX NEWS, the most UNBIASED news reporting in the USA.....NOT!

Citing a biased source is dumber than a bag of hair, a bag of hammers, or a bag of rocks, take your pick :-D.

&gt;5 kids where killed in just one night
a Day in June 2008

&gt;5 kids where killed in just one night
a Day in June 2008
Thanks for ths chart of shame, that does't show everything.

For someone like myself living in the U.K., the question is also about how the United States compares with the other options.

Moving to Spain, France or Italy would give me a better climate, and also the ability to easily return to the U.K. to visit family or in case of emergency. Moving to Australia, New Zealand or Canada would mean a similar society to the one I am used to, with social support mechanisms.

What would be the advantages of the United States? There is some grand scenery, but I personally find the distances you have to travel to see it a disadvantage. Some of the tourist areas, like Cambria or Mendocino on the west coast, are attractive, but rather artificial.

I enjoyed visiting Boston and Seattle, and some rural towns can be appealing, but the American townscape with its slab concrete sidewalk and chain-link fencing doesn't have the variety of its European equivalent.

The coastal Southern California climate is good, but I would not want the temperatures of Texas, or the brutal winters of the mid west. Britain may be damp, but it is invariably mild.

Living in the U.S. would be attractive if I was young, healthy, and ambitious for my own prosperity rather than that of the community in which I lived. Most Americans are friendly, but their lifetsyle and relationships to one another are not what I am used to, and I think I would miss that.

There is also the joy here of having history on one's doorstep, and gentle and green countryside.

Re the issue of paid vacation time in the US--it certainly matters as to the type of profession, the size of the company, and the individual's position within the company. But I'd like to add that if employers did not have to also be in the business of paying for their employees' health care they would be able to offer more time for vacation. I didn't read every single post here, but scanning through I saw the pro-America group extolling the virtues of their health-care plans but not explaining that most of us get our insurance through our workplaces, and our employers pay huge amounts to insurance companies for the plans that we enjoy. We contribute to those plans but relatively small amounts. This arrangement has sadly caused many a small business or manufacturer to close down. Fifty years ago, the jobs that provided health care benefits were the civil-servant areas (police, fire, post office, government) and the big industries (IBM for example). And even then health-care benes were offered as perks to the people high on the career ladder, not to the people actually on the ground doing the work! Then increasingly these benefit packages were marketed by the insurance companies and lobbied for by unions, and employers found themselves having to be in the business of insurance providers. Now cracks are beginning to develop, and changes are on the (far) horizon.

I realize that IBM wasn't a good example to use..

I would not live in America long-term. I was fortunate in my youth to spend 6 months working there for 2 summers while I attended college.It was a wonderful experience. I have been to many parts of America since on vacation and like certain aspects of the country very much.I believe though that it a country for the rich and very rich and note for example that the minimum wage in Ireland,where I live now, is double that of America,every worker here gets 4 weeks vacation and paid maternity leave is 6 months.Medical costs are a fraction of those in America,although there is no hospital here to compare with the very top range there.This situation is fairly similar in the European community,except for those countries who joined recently, who have a long way to catch up. I think America is a great country if you are young,well-educated, ambitious, hard-working and healthy.Otherwise the going is pretty rough and the number of housing foreclosures there at present makes my hair stand on end.

<i>Thanks for ths chart of shame, that does't show everything.</i>

It shows that 5 kids were not murdered in one day in Boston in June 2008, which is all it was intended to do. You could at least make up &quot;facts&quot; that aren't so easily checked. Or you could, God forbid, stop making things up.

Nice try though. Thanks for playing...

Sandylan: If you look closely at the foreclosures you will find that it is a lot more complicated than people simply not earning a living wage and having to give up their homes. It's a huge, multi-layered problem that includes people whose eyes were bigger than their pocketbooks and bought a second (vacation) home that required them to take on more debt than they could afford. And re the medical insurance issue please see my prior post. I also note that a lot of the posters here have travelled to &quot;tourist&quot; areas: NYC, LA,New Orleans, etc and haven't visited the suburbs and small towns where us 'regular' people live. The quality of life in most places is average or even pretty nice.

It doesn't show the people shot that died the next day in hospital. That's all!

Well, I for one am happy to learn that so many are interested in discussing evolution. I look forward to more threads about it, and about genetics in general. And here I was thinking I was boring everyone to tears, every time I raised the subject. ;)

Look, folks, if you're happy where you are, be this the UK, the US, somewhere in Europe, or Timbuctu, that's great! On the other hand, I could do with fewer bogus claims for why someone isn't going to move. For example, I somehow doubt anyone's going to refuse to move, to, say, Vienna solely or even mainly because that city's Cardinal Schonbrun holds that neo-Darwinism is incompatible with Catholic doctrine. Or to the UK because there apparently exists some outfit called &quot;Truth in Science&quot; [sic] that is apparently dedicated to having creationism taught in British schools.

As for crime, we should remember that for all practical purposes the principal consideration is the degree of possible bodily harm that one could sustain in a given locale. On that note, may I point out that one is just as dead whether one is shot, dismembered by a bomb left in a taxi, run down by a car, or slowly suffocated by pollution-caused lung disease (Beijing, anyone?) In other words, most places carry their fair share of risks as well as of rewards, and people who are serious about relocating to just about anywhere recognize this.

I think if workers could move as freely as capital does, people in first world countries across the globe would reconsider their options in a flash.

For most Europeans, life is good -- and violent crime is indeed lower. It would be pretty scary to give up the social infrastructure Europeans have for life in America for the marginal advantage of bigger houses. The ones I know who do it are mostly business entrepreneurs -- although American real estate has become so cheap for those in possession of euros, I know a lot of Europeans buying real estate.

For Europeans interested in developing and marketing a new product, they prefer the business climate of America, and they often like the open optimism of Americans.

However, I do think if labor restrictions were removed, and health care was universalized, you'd see a big stampede everywhere of people moving in all directions to other countries.

I think we'll never know what people truly want because the economics just makes it impossible to think about it seriously -- so only the desperate and the well-heeled actually pick up and go.

<i>It doesn't show the people shot that died the next day in hospital. That's all!</i>

Really? That would be strange, since it is a listing of homicides in Boston, and whether someone dies immediately, or the next day (or the next year, for that matter), from injuries received in an attack, it is still a homicide.

One more question, do you believe the stuff you make up, or do you just expect everyone else to? I mean, there were 5 kids murdered in a single night in June 2008. There is no evidence to support this. A detailed listing of 2008 murders, from the leading Boston newspaper does not list them. Glad to know logos is on the case.

The idea of living in a suitable part of the US (or for that matter Europe) for a year or two appeals to me, but like the vast majority of my compatriots I wouldn't consider a permanent move, to America or anywhere else.

Australians' lifestyle is generally similar to Americans' (more specifically, Californians'), although we tend to be more egalitarian than Americans, and our attitudes to such matters as the role of government, provision of health services, gun control, criminal justice and religion are very much closer to the British. As far as I'm concerned that adds up to a good, albeit imperfect, mix and provides little incentive to move.

You realize, I guess, that Australian society has a reputation for being racist, not egalitarian. I'm not saying you are or it's true, I'm just surprised at the discrepancy between outside perception and inside perception. I've never been to Australia, so I don't have an opinion about it.

To the Americans defending America, I think it's hard to appreciate how odd others view America's toleration of guns and the insecurity they cause.

PS: Now that I live in Europe, I feel quite relieved to be able to walk and drive alone at night and not have to worry about gun crime. It is a psychological lift.

Guns:

Comparing a recent trip to NYC and another to Mexico, I found it extremely interesting that if I asked to take a photo in front of the SWAT team posted outside of the Empire State Bldg., the officers would politely say no thank you (they're working), but would still stand there while I took a picture anyways. Now same question in Mexico... Let's just say I don't own a camera anymore.

There are more machine gun-toting officers posted on street corners and at stop lights in Mexico than in the US. Also, there are many more reports of tourists being injured or killed by gunfire in Mexico than in the US. You also have to worry about kidnappings and robberies. I don't recall this being an issue for tourists visiting America.

Don't get me wrong, we have a family vacation home in Mexico and we love it there, but if I had to choose to live full-time in the US or Mexico, hands down, we'd pick the US.

Anyone who mentions &quot;weather&quot; as a reason not to move the US is the most ignorant person in the entire world. Would that be the weather of N. Dakota? Southern CA? Northern CA? Alaska? Hawaii? New York? Oregon?

Oh, please, if you're going to be critical, make SOME sense.

There is nothing wrong with not wanting to move to another country, but comments about weather show such ignorance, that I'm doing a happy dance that person doesn't want to move to the U.S., we have enough of our own idiots!

well, most people would make your choice -- including a lot of Mexicans. Mexico is a near lawless society in some parts.

Is there someone Mexican posting in this thread who is arguing he or she wouldn't move to the US? (I admit I haven't read all the posts.)

But compared to Europe, having to worry as much as Americans do about gun crime is odd. Like, why not just rewrite the 2d amendment and have some real control?

Most Americans I know with kids worry a lot about their kids exposure to crime and spend a lot of money trying to keep their kids away from violent neighborhoods and schools (London, too, by the way).

It's sad Americans don't do more to uproot gun crime. Maybe that will change.

I'm an American who moved to Europe, and picked a place I liked the weather. There are only a small handful of places in the US where I find the weather tolerable all year -- and most of them have fires and earthquakes!

I know Americans don't think their weather is severe, but tornadoes, blizzards, ice storms, catastrophic flooding, Southern-style humidity and temps of 110 degrees in treeless deserts are not the norm is much of long-settled Europe.

Most Europeans would find it hard to acclimatize to most of America. I sometimes think the American expansion west had a lot to do with European settlers disliking wherever they first landed.

Which reminds me --

Looks to me like an awful lot of Europeans didn't like Europe -- enough to fill two continents.

I forgot hurricanes.

&gt;an awful lot of Europeans didn't like Europe
It's those religious and other fanatics that went across the atlantic but you can't blame Aussies for being deported. :D

yes, well, i have a warm spot for dissident and immigrant (or emigrant) culture. Even fanatics.

But there is no question in my mind that everything that is wrong with America had its roots in European culture.

I have always wondered why some people emigrate, while others don't, and if there are personality differences at work.

I have a foot in both camps here, since one of my direct ancestors went from England to Australia in the 1830s, while another went to North America at the same time. In both cases they went with close family members and/or friends, and in both cases left children behind from whom I am descended.

This was a major time for emigration from England, with much rural poverty, so the impetus for going is clear.

The positive view is that these were the more adventurous and ambitious members of the family, who wanted to take opportunities which were available.

The more negative view is that these were people for whom loyalty to country and community mattered less. One of them left behind a baby.

Those who went to Australia have mainly stayed in the New South Wales area around Maitland and Sydney. Those who ended up in Illinois, tended to move further west, some to California. I suspect that the Illinois winters were not to their liking. Having visited both areas, that would be my own reaction.

&quot;The more negative view is that these were people for whom loyalty to country and community mattered less&quot;

Or that they just weren't up to it back home.

In immigrant societies, it's routinely taken for granted that emigrants were the best and brightest. This simply flies in the face of modern experience. The five pound poms of the 1950s, for example, were the moaning minnies of working-class Britain: the kind of whingers we were glad to see the back of and Australia was decidely less than chuffed to see bringing their workshy mores into Oz.

Same with the gin-sodden buffoons who man the bars of Southern Spain telling anyone who'll listen how Britain's gone to the dogs and look at all that binge-drinking going on back in England.

And don't get me started on the legions who've fled high tax Britain to live in France (that well-known tax haven) and can't string two words of French together.

&quot;PS: Now that I live in Europe, I feel quite relieved to be able to walk and drive alone at night and not have to worry about gun crime. It is a psychological lift.&quot;

Where did this person live? Compton? I've never been afraid of being a victim of gun crimes, car jackings, assaults or anything in my whole life. I live in Los Angeles, where apparantly most of this happens according to Europeans. To be honest I'm more afraid of Europeans body odor then I am of being shot or beat up.

Europeans came to the USA so they can have certain rights. One is to own a gun. Believe it or not we have laws against shooting other people. Amazing, I know. I've never known a person or even known someone who knows someone thas has been a victim of any kind of violence involving weapons.

I bet there are more deaths every year from people crossing the street then there are from gun crime.

Also, you cannot tell me that if someone entered your home intending to cause harm to you or your family that you would not wish you had a gun. It's a no brainer. You shoot that SOB.

Europeans that believe we have a lot of gun crimes are obviously out of touch with reality and only hear the liberal propoganda they get from their local news.

For some reason everybody thinks America is bad. That we are an evil country. The only reason everyone feels that way is because they are intimidated by us. They see that we can become the most prominent nation in all the world without their help. I also believe that the pride American citizens have in their country is misconstrued by the Europeans and believed to be arrogance. Europeans believe they have the best place to live as do Americans. There is nothing wrong with either viewpoint.

Europe is great, I'd like to visit or even live their one day. But America will always be home. Just as your country will always be home.

I am proud to be an American. As are the hundreds of millions of people who have come from Europe and all over the world to start a new beginning and be able to have the rights that we are given that others are not.

&quot;Europeans that believe we have a lot of gun crimes are obviously out of touch with reality and only hear the liberal propoganda they get from their local news.&quot;

I tend to look at things like the annual death rate statistics issued by the CDC in Atlanta.

From a European (and probably most 1st world countries) 30,000 deaths a year from guns is a &quot;gun problem&quot;.
Even given that half of these are suicides.

To compare figures, around 4500 pedestrians are killed in the US every year (So the bet about &quot;more people die crossing the road looks like a good one for me to take you up on)

&gt;You shoot that SOB
All righty right, then let's shoot him, proud American.

&gt;&gt;&gt;&quot;All righty right, then let's shoot him, proud American.&quot;

So I guess you would just let him hurt you and your family then, you wonderful parent.

&gt;&gt;?&quot;From a European (and probably most 1st world countries) 30,000 deaths a year from guns is a &quot;gun problem&quot;.
Even given that half of these are suicides.

&gt;&gt;&gt;To compare figures, around 4500 pedestrians are killed in the US every year (So the bet about &quot;more people die crossing the road looks like a good one for me to take you up on)&quot;

Sorry I don't have the time or the eagerness to look up statistics to prove people wrong. I don't have to be right all the time like you do I suppose. And saying half the deaths by suicide has no bearing is crazy. Those people would have found a way to kill themselves without a gun. And to tell you the truth I thought 30,000 was a very small number for gun violence but according to you it is more like 15,000 which really is amazing. You'd be hard pressed to find 15,000 people in Europe who brushed their teeth.

&quot;And saying half the deaths by suicide has no bearing is crazy&quot;

Who said they had no bearing - your comprehension skills seem lacking.

Having seen your comments on teeth and body odour, I cannot see the point of trying to have a sensible debate. It does seem to disprove the comment about the &quot;world's stupidest people&quot; being the ones who don't like American weather.

All these stats are making me wonder where America ranks in the world as far as homicides by gun violence. Turns out the USA is number 14 on the list with 9.1 deaths per 100,000 people. Seems kinda high until I figure the percentage is 0.000091%. Here is the link:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...er-100-000-pop

It also turns out the USA has a lower rate of suicide then a lot of European countries including France, Germany, Sweden, Switzerland and the list goes on. USA is 43rd on the list. I guess America's not that bad of a place to live in compared to some other places after all.

Here is that link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_suicide_rate