Felt the need to clear up a misconception. Dachau was NOT a death camp, and people were not burned there. This was a political camp. This does not lessen the creepy idea of this being "in their backyard". I visited Sachsenhausen, outside Berlin, in Oct, and that feeling was overwhelming. That said, I too would, and frequently do, go back. It is a wonderful country!

I feel compelled to answer this. I too am an observent Jewish, lost relatives in the Holocaust and have been to Germany. I cannot blame the entire German people of 1999 just as I do not blame today's Spanish for the Inquisition, the English for the Crusades, etc. We must "never forget" in order that we remember what our ancestors sacrificed for their Judaism and that it does not happen again. Frankly, I have encountered more anti-Semitism in the US than I ever have in Europe, and find most younger Germans more tolerable to different ethnicities, religions, etc. than Americans of the same age. That being said, other than Munich, I never have found Germany particularly interesting. I would go back if necessary but would rather see Austria or Switzerland for the natural beauty, and Paris/Florence/Venice/Brussels for cities.

Hallo, <BR>being German I must say that I´ve gone through a mixture of feelings while reading these posts. I was glad that a lot of people understand the role we Germans of the second or third generation are put into. And I was very sad to read was Al, who I always found very wise and wonderful helping people, is thinking of German people and therefore of me as well. I´ve never killed anybody nor was anybody I know or of my family involved in the crimes of the Hitler area, in fact my grandfather was in a political concentration camp, as well. We don´t want to forget what has happened. I´m one among a lot of people who is not only ashamed but want to put all force into not letting things like the Third Reich happen again. <BR> <BR>Regards <BR> <BR>Miriam

Kevin, your facts are not in order. There were probably some political prisoners in Dachau, but many were POW's from Russia and other various undesirables who were subjected to torture and death, -- 30,000 registered deaths in Dachau alone. Please refer yourself to the official Dachau web page if you wish to be informed. <BR> <BR>http://www.infospace.de/gedenkstaett...ish/index.html

I'm sorry, that link seems to be bad. Try <BR> <BR>www.infospace.de/gedenkstaette <BR> <BR>then click on the english version.

Alas, homo sapiens is a species of tribal morons.

Miriam, at no time did I suggest that you or any other Germans of the younger generation have any direct connection with what was done by the Nazis. I am of German descent. We must never forget that the first nation conquered by the Nazis was...Germany. The record is clear about who went into the camps first or were killed because they were in mental institutions. Those first victims were Germans, whether they were Jews or were not. Trade unionists, Socialists, Communists, gypsies, homosexuals, Catholic and Protestant clerics, anti-Nazis of many kinds. Unlike many who visit Germany today and see only a lovely landscape, people in lederhosen, or cuckoo clocks, I carry with me the mental baggage of being a veteran of the second World War, with friends still buried on Omaha Beach, at Margraten, and at Metz. They never had the chance to grow old as I have, to see Germany become the nation it is today. I am glad to hear that you are dedicated to the preservation of your freedoms. I only wish that others in Germany were equally alert.

The original intent of this thread has been unwound into a discussion of why visit Germany in the first place. I am of the mind set that I wouldn't necessarily rule out a visit; but because I cannot ignore what has recently befallen my people, it is not some place I desire to go and because of limited travel opportunities would not go there. As a child in the States, everyone around me had numbers burned into their forearms. As the years went by, I listened to the noxious sound of German as it was shouted in newsfilm. To this day, the sound of the German language being spoken, even by the most genteel person, causes a pained reaction. So, in a way I am another "victim" of the 3rd Reich (although I hesitate to even associate my ideas with the real victimization that occurred). The Nazis and their German supporters took away my ability to want to explore and experience the country that they ruled. Since I don't have such feelings for Spain and other similar countries, I assume that future generations will not be "victimized" in this same way. <BR>I too will use a "noname" appelation as I too know the extent of anti semitism.

Noname11, you are aware of Spain's persecution of the Jews, aren't you?

Al: Your remark about Turkish children born in Germany not having the right to German citizenship is quite interesting. There are precious few countries in the world that give citizenship based on place of birth. I live in Luxembourg and my children, born here, have no right to citizenship. If their children are born here, they have no right to citizenship. For some countries, these children would not have a right to citizenship in their countries. If their children are born here, then they have no right to citizenship in any country in the world. This is the norm in the world and the US Congress has discussed several times switching to this standard.

Hi Bonnie, <BR> <BR>First let me apologize for the ugly discussion thread on the Fodor's forum. It's usually a great place for travel info. but every once a great while it ends up in "flame" wars. <BR> <BR>Second let me urge you to go to Germany, especially Bavaria. While not a seasoned world traveller, I have been to Europe 5 times in my tender 33 years, and absolutely love Germany. We have traveled Bavaria quite a bit and I would be happy to bore you with suggestions of what to see and what to pass over if you wish. <BR> <BR>Best regards, Todd "tpr" Repke aka the turnip

Danny, this right of citizenship is guaranteed under the Constitution. To remove this right, a Consitutional amendment would be required, and this would call for a vote by both houses of Congress, ratification by the states, and the signature of the President. You and I would be long gone from this earth for such a travesty to occur. Germany, on the other hand, has had (and may still have, for all I know) laws that require both parents to be German citizens. Inasmuch as barriers are placed in the way of German residents of Turkish descent ever becoming citizens, some are well into their third generation of living, working, and paying taxes in Germany with no opportunity to become citizens. Recent discussions within the German parliament have touched on this sore spot, but it's a toss-up if this statute will be changed. In the meantime, huge districts of major cities in Germany are "Little Istanbuls." Racism and bigotry are alive and well in Germany. The more things change, the more they are the same.

Hallo Al, <BR>I don´t want to go into that point of the discussion too much, but you are not right. Everybody born in Germany has a right to become German Citizen. For sure there´s a lot of paperwork to do-but it is possible. We have a lot of Turkish people with both the German and the Turkish Citizenship. Fact is that those people will have a REALLY big problem when returning to the country of their fathers even when it is only for vacation. Like everywhere in big cities we have a problem with masses of people from abroad without a job, any knowledge of the language etc. I don´t deny that. But I don´t think that it is necessarily a hint for Racism. <BR> <BR>Miriam

Hey enough is enough. I come to this forum to relax and enjoy peoples experiences. I have been to Germany several times and enjoyed it each time. Also other European countries, Let us not get political.There is enough negative stories on tv or newspapers. keep those goooood experiences coming.

Ilisa: of course I am aware of the inquisition; that was my point in referring to Spain and similar countries; namely, that although I have read about it I don't have first hand association with it, therefore I dont have the same visceral feelings that I have about Germany, although Spanish atrocities are on an equal footing. <BR> <BR>As to the others who think this has no place on a travel forum, I would respecfully disagree.Travel is a matter of choice and perspective and whether or not a locale is worth going to or returning to, as the thread inquires, is a matter of personal opinion; this is MY opinion and I have given reasons for why I have it. If those of you who think that my opinion is an act of flame throwing or negativity, I am sorry. So, go look at your coo coo clocks and beer halls and and feel good about everything you see and hear. Sorry to advise you that for some people there are some countries that this is not enough. <BR> <BR>

I read the replies of those respondents to the original question with some interest. While I was happy to find quite a number of travellers who share my own love of Germany, there still seems virtually no-one who experiences the country north and east of the so-called 'Weisswurstequator'. This is an imaginary line dividing veal-sausage country from pork-sausage country and runs from roughly west of Frankfurt through Nuremberg to the border with the Czech Republic, and coincides quite closely with the areas under Roman domination 2000 years ago, which even today tend to be Catholic while the remaining parts of the country are more Protestant. There is a hell of a lot more to Germany than castles, Romantic Road, Rhine and Moselle, Heidelberg and Black Forest, attractive as these destinations are.

Harzer: <BR> <BR>I've been trying to keep Northern Germany a secret for several years, and now you blurt out its charms on the Fodor's board! I thought guys like you and me were trying to keep out the teal-garbed, Rick-Steves-guidebook-toting North Americans so we could have a bit of peace and quiet up there and keep the prices down! <BR> <BR>Seriously, there are many relatively unexplored and unheralded spots in the north and the east that are worthy of travel time.

This has been the most political thread I have EVER read on this travel forum, and I must say, I truly enjoyed reading others feelings, histories, opinions, etc., whether I agreed with them or not. I do agree that traveling to foreign countries is or should be more than simply a visual experience. <BR> <BR>But now, as God forgives us of our sins, let us also forgive others of theirs so that there can be <BR> <BR>PEACE ON EARTH, GOOD WILL TO ALL.