Vendors in Venice, Valpolicella in Verona, and a Clandenstine MaiTai sighting. What else could you want in a trip report?
 

My DH and I spent 10 wonderful days in Northern Italy to celebrate our 10 year anniversary in May. So much of our trip was shaped by information we?d gotten from this website, so thank you all! Hopefully I can pay it forward.

We spent our first 8 nights in Verona, making several daytrips from there. We saw Mantova, Lake Garda (Malcesine and Riva), Milan, Vicenza, and Trento. Our last two nights were spent in Venice.

Since many of you are probably curious about the MaiTai reference, I?ll get that out of the way. Our first night in Italy, we were strolling around the Piazza Bra area of Verona. Along one of the back streets we came across some graffiti (unusual, I know). Plain as day, it said ?MAITAI CLANDENSTINE.? Of course I thought of our friend MaiTaiTom and laughed out loud. Planning to go to Verona on your next trip, Tom? I think they?re ready for you!

Okay, so here it is, city by city:

VERONA:
I absolutely fell in love with Verona. It is so colorful and well maintained?a very cheery city. The people are sophisticated, polite, and very proud to be Veronese. It is the perfect city for what we wanted in a vacation base: a good train hub (we didn?t want to mess with a car), a safe, pretty city with enough attractions to keep us interested but not packed with tourists. Because of the opera festival it hosts in the summertime, Verona has the infrastructure for tourists, but being there in their off-season, we felt like the only Americans there. At first we felt a little self-conscious as our attempts at the Italian language are laughable, but we never had any major problems communicating. After a day or two, we felt privileged to be one of the few tourists, like we were in on a secret that no one else knows about. We spent a lot of time sitting at one of the outdoor restaurants at Piazza Bra, just watching the locals go about their business. Boy, the evening stroll on Friday night is quite a spectacle!

As soon as I can, I?ll give specifics about our hotel, restaurants, and the like. This will be done in many installments.

Jocelyn: Now that you've been bewitched by Verona, if you haven't read them already, run out and buy Tim Parks's books about his life there as an American. They're wonderful!

funny about the graffiti!

Hi Jocelyn,
Thanks for the report. We too have just returned from a trip to Verona, our second time because we love it there. Loved Lake Garda too and can't wait to read the rest of your report. Thanks.

StCirq: thanks for the recommendation. I checked out Tim Parks's books and they look fascinating!


Hotel:
Thanks to Fodorite Claire for recommending Residenza Verona House, where we stayed for all 8 nights in Verona. It's a collection of apartments right across the street from the Castelvecchio, about a 5 minute walk to Piazza Bra and 10-15 minutes to Piazza Erbe. The bus stop is 2-3 minutes away, with a bus taking you to the train station in less than 5 minutes. We never had to wait more than 2 minutes for our bus. Our apartment was HUGE, especially by European standards. You walked in through a small entryway, leading you to a nicely equipped kitchen. A round table seated 4. Beyond the kitchen was a small alcove with a couch and TV. Another door led to the bedroom, with a queen sized bed, large armoire, four chairs, and more dresser drawer space than I have at home. The bathroom, with a shower but no tub, had a large, sunny window. There were four large windows (all openable) total in the apartment. There was even a washing machine! The décor was colorful yet tasteful, with nice hardwood floors, upholstered walls, and an elaborate chandelier in the bedroom. Even though this was essentially an apartment, we still had daily maid service and a voucher for breakfast at the café across the street. All of this for 95 Euro a night! Only two small negatives: 1) the staff at the front desk, although never rude, was not overly friendly or helpful. 2) we couldn't call the US from our room using a phone card. Other than that, we couldn't have been happier with Residenza Verona House.

Restaurants/food/wine:
Our general strategy was that wherever we spent the day, we'd eat lunch with reckless abandon, enjoying multiple courses and always including the local specialty. At dinnertime, back in Verona, we'd usually head out to Piazza Bra and find a passegiata-side table for a pizza or simple pasta and first-rate people watching. Although we didn't try them all, our favorite spot on Piazza Bra was Liston 21. Their pastas were fantastic! On a few occasions we did venture beyond our comfortable routine. I'll just list the noteworthy ones:

Ristorante La Greppia: We ate here with Fodorite Lesli (hi Lesli!), who was staying right next door to us at Verona House. My grilled trout was simple and heavenly, and the Soave wine was nice, even though I typically like reds.

Bottega del Vino: What I remember most is their wine list, which must have been at least 50 pages long (single spaced!), and very pricey. We tried one of their house wines, a Valpolicella from Le Salette, which was probably my favorite of the whole trip. To go along with this wonderful wine, I had the risotto all'Amarone. As you can imagine, it was fabulous. It didn't really look appetizing with it's grayish purple color, but it tasted cheesy and oh, so good.

Osteria del Duca: this little local place is supposedly Romeo's house, although the restaurant doesn't play it up. We felt very foreign here, like we were intruding on someone's family dinner. Although a little uncomfortable, it was a neat experience. I had the polenta with mushrooms, gorgonzola, and salami, washed down with a glass of Masi Amarone. I know this is heresy to some, but, although I appreciate the complexity of an Amarone, I prefer a good Valpolicella with my meal.

Thanks to Fodorite ellenem for recommending Al Solito Posto; we found it (it looked perfect!) but it was closed for renovations.

Next is Mantova...

Enjoying your report, Jocelyn. Glad you had a great time.

We are hoping to fit Verona into our next trip to Venice, so thanks for the info.

MANTOVA:
Mantova, although a 30 minute train ride away, felt very different from Verona. Where Verona is colorful and cheerful, Mantova seemed drab and heavy. We've seen it described as "melancholy" and "moody," but we found it a tad depressing. Oddly enough, perhaps the sunny, clear weather was a detraction? Since Mantova is surrounded by lakes, it's often shrouded in fog, which would have been pretty cool to see.
I did like how one piazza opens up into the next, and some of the architecture was eye-catching, but this was our least favorite of the daytrips we took. We toured the two big palaces, Palazzo Te and Palazzo Ducale. We were a little underwhelmed. I guess after experiencing the treasures of Florence and Rome (our last trip), anything less just doesn't impress. It certainly was not a wasted day, as it put into perspective what we liked so much about Verona.

Food:
We had lunch at Ristorante Osteria Vecchia Mantova. I tried the local specialty, tortelli di zucca (pumpkin-stuffed ravioli). I was looking forward to trying this dish, and it was not what I expected. The pumpkin filling was sweet, with pumpkin pie-like spices--I was expecting more savory flavors. See what you learn when you travel? :) The house wine, a Dolcetto d'Alba, was very nice. DH had a maccheroni al torchio con fagioli e salsiccia (pasta with beans and sausage). He affectionately called it a "super-duper chili mac."

Next is Lake Garda.

LAKE GARDA:
This was probably our favorite day. Mille grazie to Fodorites GAC and Bob the Navigator for suggesting the bus route up the eastern shore to Riva del Garda. It took a little over two hours from Verona, but it was a beautiful drive. At the southern end of the lake, the water was like glass. As you drove north and the mountains sprang up, the waters were choppy and the scene was dramatic. Riva is a jewel; such a picturesque lakeside town. There is a wide pedestrian promenade that follows the shore, with meticulously-kept landscaping (we were there with all the colorful spring blooms). Looking south from Riva, through the palm and olive trees you see the rough waters framed on either side by snow-capped Alpine peaks--kind of bizarre. The clouds moved very quickly around the mountains so the scene was constantly changing. From Riva we (reluctantly, as we didn't want to leave!) took a ferry to Malcesine, another beautiful little town with a stately castle out on a peninsula. Thanks to Fodorite Ingo for suggesting the cable car up to Monte Baldo! Things sure looked different from 5600 feet up.

Funny little story: on the way down, we traveled with a large group of grade school kids and a grumpy English woman. Every time the cable car would accelerate a little, the kids would predictably scream in delight. The grumpy woman beside me kept muttering "bloody kids" and telling everyone around her how they're going to panic and it would "be the end for all of us." Her husband, obviously tired of her complaints, began screaming along with the kids. :D

We wanted to see Sirmione as well, on the south end of the lake, but we took our time in Riva and it was already getting late by the time we left Malcesine so we'll have to save it for the next trip. We have to have an excuse to go back, right? :)

Food:
Nothing exciting here; we had lunch at one of the lakeside cafes, which had a view to kill for, but the food was just okay. It was still worth it.

Other observations:
We heard a lot of German spoken here. I wasn't paying close enough attention to figure out if it was just tourists or the locals as well.

Next is Milan.

Enjoying your report, Jocelyn.

St Cirq, I think he's British but went to Harvard.

MILAN:
I had heard mixed reviews about Milan, so I wasn't expecting to be wowed. I'd heard that Milan is gray, polluted, busy, noisy, crowded, etc. Yes, all those things are true, but aren't they of most large Italian cities? Milan is more orderly, though, than Rome (for example). The people seemed more reserved and disciplined, in their dress, their driving, and their overall behavior. Milan has such a rich history and some fascinating sights--don't be scared away! We spent a full day there and could have done at least one more. The city has such an interesting vibe.

Sights:
The Duomo:
There is still scaffolding covering the façade, but you can walk around to the side to get a sense for the immense amount of detail involved. I remember having an intense emotional reaction when I walked into the Santa Croce Church in Florence, and also in a few small Baroque churches in Austria, but Milan's Duomo takes the cake. You could have knocked me over with a feather the second I walked in. The interior is simple and dramatic at the same time. We walked slowly around the church, stunned and speechless. I know that St. Peter's is bigger, but I felt it was TOO big. I couldn't get a good sense of The Whole. It has so much going on that your attention is going in all different directions. This Duomo, although massive, was still small enough and simple enough that I could perceive it as one unit...and I just realized I need to add to the "Jaw-Dropping Sights" thread! It was fun to walk around on the roof. Although I really did like Milan, I must admit, it has a darned ugly skyline.

The Last Supper and the Sforzesca Castle were both worthwhile. We also enjoyed walking down Via Dante, through the Galleria, and around the shopping district. It was also neat to walk through Peck, the food emporium. I wanted to take pictures but didn't want to look like the gawking tourist so I resisted. I wish I'd done it anyway!

Food:
We ate in the Galleria for the people-watching. The saffron risotto (Risotto Milanese) was yummy. My first time. ;)

Vicenza is next...

VICENZA:
I absolutely loved Vicenza. DH and I decided if we ever were to move to Italy, it would be to Vicenza. It is an elegant, classy, clean city with lots of green space. Architect Palladio spent most of his working years here so it's something of an architect's mecca. Although not architects, we really enjoyed the look of the numerous palazzi that line the streets. There were markets everywhere we turned (is Thursday a big market day or is it like that every day???), with clothes, linen, cookware, knick-knacks, and of course, food. The seafood carts were pretty impressive. We didn't hear English spoken the whole day (except our friendly and patient waiter--more about that later). Adjacent to the old city is an expansive park, with a smattering of sculptures and an interesting gazebo. A river meanders through the city, it's banks filled with wildflowers. Seeing the Teatro (by Palladio, the first indoor theater) alone was worth the trip to Vicenza.

After touring the old city, we decided to WALK to the outskirts of town to see some of Palladio's villas, the Rotonda and Villa Valmarana. It looked like a long but doable walk on the map; we didn't realize that it was UPHILL. Regardless, it was a beautiful walk and we'd do it again. We also walked through the upscale neighborhoods to the Basilica. It was worth it just for the view of the city and surrounding countryside.

Little funny story: if you've been to Italy you've undoubtedly marveled at how Italian women parade around in their stilettos on the cobblestone streets. Well, we finally witnessed the inevitable: a well-dressed woman stepped right out of her fancy shoe! She laughed about it, as did we (after she had passed. Manners, you know).

Food:
Mille grazie to Fodorite baldrick for his input on Vicenza restaurants and a little background on the culinary culture in this remarkable city. We had a very memorable lunch at Al Pestella, the first on his list of recommendations. Our waiter spoke English and was very patient with us. He actually read the menu aloud, translating it to English! We started with a local wine, a Tocai Rosso from Ca'Basso. Very light and delicious. Of course I had to try the local baccala e polenta. It was salt cod, long-simmered in a creamy, nutmeggy stew. It was framed by polenta squares. The dish tasted unusual to my humble American palate, but we both enjoyed it.

Other observations:
Outside the restaurant we ran into a friendly elderly Italian woman was explaining to us that she can't interpret the menu because the dialect here is so foreign. Even we, with our very limited knowledge of the language, noticed a difference from town to town (especially Verona-Vicenza and Verona-Trento).

Next is Trento...

Jocelyn--Enjoying your report and remembering my own happy travels to Verona and some of your other choices. (Too bad Al Solito Posto was closed, though sounds like you ate well--I'm taking notes.) Waiting for more of your report!

I was wondering when youd get back! We had our last Italy planning dinner last night..leaving in 18 days!! we all cant wait.. glad you had a great time..

karen

Hi Joc--Your trip sounds absolutely wonderful! I'm excited to start planning my first Italy trip.

Here's a question to all: Would you rather your first trip be 14 days in August, or 10 days in April? A group of us are planning a trip, but people have more available days in the summer.

I might favor 10 days in April; it might cost literally half of 14 days in August - - and then I could go back the following April (or October)!

Best wishes,

Rex

Thanks for the kind words, everyone. Good to hear from you, Karen! I hope things are going well in SD.

TRENTO:
Thanks to fodorite Rex for touting this little gem in the mountains! It was about an hour from Verona by train, and well worth the trip. Unfortunately, we were worn out from all the walking in Vicenza the day before, so we didn't stay in Trento too long. We would have liked to go up to Bolzano as well, but just didn't have the energy. Anyway, the main square, Piazza del Duomo, was stunning. The buildings were so colorful! The pretty little Duomo made up part of the large piazza, but the crowning jewel was the Neptune fountain in the middle of this popular gathering place. You could see snow-capped mountains behind the buildings from almost any angle. We spent a lot of time just sitting on a bench, soaking it in. We did walk around a little, making it down to the castle. We toured the inside, which was okay, but not the highlight of the town.

Food:
We had a lovely lunch at La Cantinota, recommended in our Frommer's guidebook. As I'd mentioned earlier, the dialect in Trento is different from Verona, and the food has a distinct Austrian influence. The menu may as well have been in Mandarin! We had fun with it, though. There was a section on the menu with "local specialties," so we ordered exclusively from there, although completely blind. We ended up with speck (similar to proscuitto) with horseradish, cabbage, and a dark bread with raisins for the antipasto. For the primi, DH got gnocchi with green beans and a pesto, I had these delectable bread dumplings with cheese, sitting in a broth with pancetta, carrots, and lots of black pepper. Those dumplings were one of the best dishes of the trip! We split a secondo, stewed meat (beef? We think? We hope?) with rosemary and polenta. Our wine was a local red called Traminer. The color was very intense, like a Shiraz, but much lighter in flavor and not nearly as sweet.

Next is Venice. ;)

Hi Jocelyn! Welcome home! What a wonderful trip report this is! Please continue.... :-D AMC

VENICE:

I do want to thank Ira, Elaine, Statia, and others who have contributed so much about Venice. Your input helped us to maximize our time there. (I feel like I'm accepting an award!)

Let me start by saying that I really, really wanted to fall in love with Venice. I just knew it was my kind of place. In reality, I was disappointed. We'd spent so much time in REAL Italy, experiencing the culture, struggling with the language, and feeling like the only tourists in town. Coming from that, Venice felt like an Italian theme park--it even has rides. :) It seemed to us that everything and everyone was trying to appeal to the ignorant traveler: trinket booths lining the streets, everyone trying to sell you something, yelling at you in English, all the restaurants had the "tourist menu." No need for the Italian survival skills we'd learned. We were appalled and embarrassed by the behavior of some of our fellow Americans. At one restaurant, we sat by two tables of Americans. One had four college-aged kids, who were rude, obnoxious, loud, cussing up a storm and making derogatory comments about the staff. At the other table, the young man kept complaining about his Coke. "Well, in America..." he kept telling the waitress. It wasn't cold enough, and he wanted a fountain drink instead of Coke from a plastic bottle. This guy even had the NERVE to tell the waitress that she really should work on her English. No wonder we're called "ugly Americans." :( I wanted to crawl into a hole and disappear. I also noticed that Venice seemed much dirtier than the other cities in the Veneto--I assume maintenance is more difficult because of the canals? We only spent 48 hours in Venice so maybe I just needed more time there. On our last night we did the gondola ride, which WAS magical. An extra day may have been all we needed to change our minds. I tried really hard to focus on the things I liked about Venice: first and foremost, no vespas!!! In general, the canals were unique, but seeing the rats climb in and out of the water was a big turn-off. Just looking out on the Grand Canal and thinking about all the history there was pretty cool. The Doge's Palace tour was interesting. But then we'd go to Piazza San Marco, AKA Tourist Hell. We found nothing appealing about San Marco, other than the dueling orchestras at night. We did spend a lot of time off the beaten path (our marvelous hotel was in Dorsdoro, near Campo Santa Margherita) as I've heard over and over that the charm of Venice is in the back streets. Yes, but aside from the occasional canal, you get the same charm in the back streets of Verona or Vicenza.

Hotel:
Our wonderful hotel almost made up for everything else. We stayed at Casa Rezzonico, on the San Barnabra Canal. It had only seven rooms. Our room was very spacious, with a large, brand new bathroom. There was a beautiful garden out in the backyard where they served a nice breakfast on fine china. It was a good chance to mingle and compare notes with the other hotel guests. We were awakened in the mornings to the sound of church bells and the aroma of warm pastries. Matteo at the front desk was so helpful! He was eager to make our trip as easy and enjoyable as possible. If and when we go back we'll probably stay there again.

Food/wine/restaurants:
We hit the extremes when it came to food. We had two delightful meals and two horrific ones. The bad ones I'd just as soon forget. Here are the good ones:

Trattoria Due Torri in Campo Santa Margherita. The menu changed daily, with lots of fresh seafood. Prices were reasonable and service was friendly. Outstanding dishes we had included marinated little shrimp (I can't remember the name for them) on warm polenta squares, and spaghetti with crab. We had their house red, a cabarnet (!), which tasted much lighter and less oaky than what I'm used to from California.

Taverna San Trovaso. We ran into fodorite Lesli there so we all had a fantastic meal together, including scallops au gratin, spaghetti with pesto, four cheese gnocchi, spaghetti with clams, and a salad. The Cabarnet Franc was okay, but not my favorite.

I'll do one more installment to wrap up.

Okay, I'm ready for the barbs.

Thanks for the kind compliment. I, too, want to spend more than the few hours (plus one sumptuous meal) we had in Trento (September 2000 - - the "Fodorites Italy 2000 trip").

Hello Jocelyn. We too were in Verona earlier this month, albeit only for 2 nights. Perhaps it was the short sojourn, very likely it was because it poured almost continuously, but we didn't like it as much as hoped.

But looking back and reading your comments I have to agree about the friendliness of the people and the easy public transportation, etc. I'll write more when I finally get around to my own trip report.

I know you want to forget the bad meal experiences but before you do, what was the worst aspect of these bad meals - the price, the service, or just the food itself?

Also, have you been to Lake Como and if so, how would you compare it to Lake Garda?

Sue,

I'm anxious to read your report! We got to Verona just after the rain stopped. We had a couple of evening showers, but perfect weather otherwise (partly sunny, highs in the mid 60s). A big part of why we liked Verona was our comfortable routine we'd established there, with the people watching from Piazza Bra.

I have not been to Lake Como yet, but it's on my list. I can't believe it's supposed to be prettier than Lake Garda...how can that be?

The bad meals in Venice. One was an okay pizza, but it was tainted by the bad behavior we witnessed. The other meal was at an outdoor trattoria (I didn't write down the name) just behind the Campo Pescaria in San Polo. The food was not just bad, it was awful. We could barely eat it, and it turned out to be one of the most expensive meals of the trip. For example, the caprese was made from greenish, flavorless tomatoes, hard, American-style mozzarella cheese, and dried basil. The sea bass seemed old and was really fishy. My ravioli con brodo was (I'll bet) store bought ravioli with canned chicken broth. We didn't say anything, as the staff seemed pretty grumpy already. We noticed a trend there--whenever the staff was happy, the food was good. Unhappy staff = bad food.

Jocelyn, I'm sorry to hear that you did not fall in love with Venice, but it's understandable since not every destination is for everyone. I'm glad I could be of help with your time there, though.

Who knows...I might come back from our next trip to Venice with similar observations as we are hoping to visit some of the "off the beaten path" destinations that you did. So, I'm enjoying your report and tips.

I also came back this month from Italy, (Bologna, Verona, Lake Garda and Lake Como ) Even though it rained in Verona, I loved it. As for comparing the 2 lakes, we drove all around Garda, stopping at a few of the charming towns. It truly is beautiful. Lake Como had the snow-capped mountains in the distance, and going back and forth by ferry to the various little towns was lots of fun. I stayed in Bellagio which I liked very much. On Lake Garda I stayed in Sirmione.

Statia, I'm curious as to how you'll perceive the other nearby cities. I wonder how I would have seen things had we gone to Venice first.

Where do you hope to go?

This Venice trip will be for a week, and wasn't really planned, but we ran across a great deal that we couldn't pass up. So, we'll have more time for daytrips, as we didn't before.

We haven't really decided where yet. We know Verona is on the list and we may only choose one other, but haven't yet decided. That's why your report is helpful!

There's another aspect to our Venice trip that I meant to include. Several months ago we bought tickets to see Verdi's Requiem at the Palafenice, my absolute favorite piece of music. This has been a dream of mine to see it live, and IN ITALY, since I participated in it in college (part of the choir). We bought the tickets through culturalitaly.com. I printed out the confirmation information and made the necessary arrangements to get to Tronchetto half an hour before the performance began. The problem was that cultural italy gave us the wrong time!!! Plain as day on the email it said 9:00, but when we got there at 8:30 it was already half way through and they couldn't seat us. Not only was I steaming mad, but heartbroken (nothing a little shopping couldn't cure, though ;) ). I've been putting it off, but I'm going to email cultural italy and tell them about the mistake they made and insist on a refund. If they refuse, I'll be letting everybody know about it. :)

So, the point of this rambling: always confirm times, especially if you're using a third party for special events.

Sad story about your tickets. . . I wonder if they made a mistake in converting the 24-hour time to 12-hour. Perhaps your performance began at 19:00 (or 7:00PM), and they wrote 9:00 instead. Still, sorry you missed it and hope you get satisfaction from cultural italy.

What a shame about the Requiem, Jocelyn!

Glad you enjoyed the Residence Verona House as much as we did, though.

Oh, Jocelyn, how frustrating! And unforgiveable incompetence on the part of the agent. I suspect ellenem has it right - some wunderkind at the agency transcribed '19:00' as 9:00. Arrgh, I do feel for you! You are right though, one is best off reconfirming times, especially in Italy when things have a way of changing unpredictably.

Jocelyn - Lovely report. Sorry Venice did not enchant you. For me it was love at first sight and it has not diminished. How unfortunate about your tickets. I had a similar experience many years ago and then realized that concerts never start as late as 9 pm. Live and learn. What did you buy in Italy, if you don't mind my asking?

Claire! I wholeheartedly intended to thank you for recommending Verona House, as you are how we first heard about it. Belated thanks to you.

Thanks to everyone else for the sympathy. The concert started at 8:00 according to the ushers there, but STILL on the cultural italy website, even after the fact, they have it listed as 9:00.

No problem, Treesa. We bought a large wall tapestry for our house. It's a replica of a famous painting, although the name escapes me now. It's a scene of the merchants out on the canal in front of St. Mark's in the 18th Century. Pretty cool. Admittedly, we also bought some cheap glass trinkets as souveniers for our family back home. We also ended up with a watercolor painting from a street artist. We've done that on every trip so far, and it createss a nice log of our travels on our dining room wall. We were hoping to find a tapestry and/or watercolor earlier in the trip, but no luck.

MISCELLANEOUS:
I probably should have put these at the first, but I was too anxious to get to the good stuff.
Air Travel:
We flew American and British Air. Once we got our boarding passes everything went really smoothly. We even got bulkhead seats for the Dallas-London leg. We're not preferred passengers or anything, we just asked politely. Neither of the transatlantic flights were even close to full.

The problem we had was getting our itinerary set. We had a great itinerary, but then BA changed our flight times so that we had too short a layover in London on our way back. The most logical thing to do was to fly out of a different city (Venice instead of Verona). A couple of months before the trip I spent hours on the phone, caught up in a game of "Pass the Buck." The travel agent (we used our FF miles so had to use the credit card's travel agent) said to call American, American said to call BA, BA said to call the travel agent. I eventually got a helpful operator at AA who said she'd made the arrangements, but to call back in a couple days to confirm, then the whole thing started over again. We waited until we showed up at the airport in Dallas, and the BA ticket agent wanted to send us on another wild goose chase! Instead we talked to a supervisor and got it all straightened out--no problems after that.

Safety: there was never a moment where we felt unsafe. We spent quite a bit of time wandering the back streets of Verona late at night and never felt threatened. Anti-Americanism? Not even a hint. If anything, the locals were glad to see us and asked lots of questions.

Packing: for the first time in our lives, we packed light, thanks to the many threads on Fodors about the subject. We each took a 22" roller, our camera, and a small backpack. On the way back we used two extra duffels for overflow. I am amazed at how much you can fit into one of those little suitcases when you roll your clothes! We had more than enough and were so glad we'd packed light, especially lugging our stuff around Venice.

I guess that's it. I think we're going to post our pictures on ofoto. I'll give you the link when we do.

I do have a question for you Italy experts: where do we go next? We have taken two trips to Italy, seeing the above plus Rome (5 days), Florence (2 days), Siena (1 day), Cinque Terre (1 day). We're discovering that we tend to shy away from the bigger cities in favor of the back roads. Is Umbria next? Sicily? Lake Como and the Turin area? More of the Veneto, Dolomites, and Friuli? As much as I'd like to see it, I'm wondering if the AC will be too touristy for our taste. Thanks for any input and happy travels!

Thanks for the great report, Jocelyn.

Where next? Hell, anywhere. If it was me, I'd head to the Dolomites (including the wine areas west of Bolzano) then out to the Veneto for a tour of the Paladian villas. Our beloved Fodorite Elvira (are you listening Marna?) did a tour of the Veneto and posted one of her as-usual grand reports here some years ago - I'll see if I can find it.

Keep up the good work.

Hey Jocelyn,Ive seen info on 'rolling' clothes but have never done it or seen it done..so what s the scoop..just roll everything? It doesnt get wrinkled?? And this works better? Karen

Thanks, Gardyloo.

Karen, here's the thread that taught me about rolling clothes:

http://www.fodors.com/forums/threads...p;tid=34467252

I found that the clothes were a little wrinkled when I first took them out, but just hung them up while in the shower and I never had to iron anything. That thread has a lot of other great packing tips. Including what I wore on the plane, I had 2 pairs of shoes, 4-5 days worth of underthings, 6 shirts, 3 pairs of pants, a light sweater, a blazer, and a weatherproof jacket. I could have done with less, but we had a washing machine in our room. Since you'll be going when it's warmer, your clothes will be even less bulky, although you may want to wash more often.

So what's the final itinerary? You've done so much careful planning, I'll bet you're ready to go NOW!

You DID thank me, and very nicely, Jocelyn! Isn't that place a wonderful find?

I've enjoyed your trip report. It brought back many lovely memories. Just wish we could make another trip THIS summer! I'm ready to go.....

Oop, so I did, Claire. Well, it was worth two thanks, anyway. :)

Simply fab! Thank you for the trip report.

Dear Jocelyn,

Here are my thoughts on your impressions of Venice:

<i>&quot;Let me start by saying that I really, really wanted to fall in love with Venice.&quot;</i>

Sometimes, overly excited anticipation can thwart and distort first impressions. Venice is Venice, and since there's nothing like her anywhere else in the world, she can pack quite a wallop. For first-time visitors, especially those coming from any smaller city or lake town in Italy, you're bound to experience some shock. Venice didn't become one of the most powerful cities in all the world because it was a tiny, insignificant hamlet. Imagine what first-time visitors felt in the 16th Century. We're talking awe, darling, utter awe.

<i>&quot;It seemed to us that everything and everyone was trying to appeal to the ignorant traveler&quot;</i>

Does this mean you consider yourself an all-knowing traveler? Two days does not provide enough time and/or freedom to discover the heart and soul of Venice, let alone its many treasures. One must dig deep beneath its thick crust of all-important tourist commerce and segue off the heavily-ridden, tourist-beaten path to get a true feel for Venice. Judging Venice by what you can absorb in 48 hours is simple folly.

Many people believe that Venice is small and can be experienced in two days. Yes, you can walk Venice's main drags in that time but, will you have time to really explore the neighborhoods, visit and chat with numerous shopkeepers, shop at a several local grocery stores, visit and explore the top five most fascinating, historical places, eat in some of the great restaurants that don't offer tourist menus, and get to know some of the locals...impossible.

<i>&quot;all the restaurants had the &quot;tourist menu&quot;</i>

This is the clearest indication to me that you didn't see <i>my</i> Venice. However, in a city that survives solely on the profits of tourism, what can you expect to see on any two-day schedule?

With only 53,000 residents in Venice, who is supposed to keep all 1,500+ restaurants in business? Did you not know that most acclaimed food critics rarely list more than 20 restaurants as &quot;top&quot; in Venice. That leaves more than 1,480 for the tourists who don't care or don't know any better.

Judging by your two &quot;hit&quot; restaurant choices (and what seems like a serious lack of quality restaurant research), I would say, if your goal was to experience some Venetian authenticity at modest expense, you made mediocre restaurant choices.

<i>&quot;We were appalled and embarrassed by the behavior of some of our fellow Americans... No wonder we're called 'ugly Americans.'&quot;</i>

In all my 20+ years of visiting Italy and Venice, I've never heard one Italian refer to my fellow countryman, or me, or any of my friends, as an &quot;ugly American.&quot; I'm not really sure what to say about any fodorite who would use this capricious, hyper-sensationalized term in any trip report.

I don't doubt you witnessed something appalling, Jocelyn, but, if it was <i>that</i> appalling to you, why didn't you walk over to the offending person and put that donkey arse in his place? One doesn't have to make a scene with a fellow American abroad to get your disapproving point across.

I sincerely doubt that any person on this travel board behaves as your offending American did, therefore, I'm not convinced that mentioning such an event serves any great, altruistic purpose here. What can fodorites or any of us do about poorly behaved people in this world? I think you would have done more good by dealing with the source of your displeasure at the horse's foul-mouth than by venting your dismay here.

I've witnessed sad, embarrassing behavior from many different nationalities in Italy. Frankly, my experience suggests that most Italians love their American visitors and they know not all Americans fall from the same tree.

<i>&quot;I also noticed that Venice seemed much dirtier than the other cities in the Veneto&quot;</i>

Do other cities in the Veneto cater to over 10 million visitors a year?

Maybe I've lived in NYC too long but I just don't get these dirt complaints. Big, exciting cities with millions of tourists traipsing through get dirty. Mother Nature is dirty. Hot sex, especially with the comfort of love, is dirty. Kids playing in the back yard are dirty. Why are people surprised to find any popular, old city in Europe dirty? Venice isn't downtown Dallas or Forest Hills Estates in Tulsa, for goodness sakes.

My mother kept an overly meticulous house in Ohio and my housekeeper has been in my employ for almost 20 years. One would think that I'd be stricken with a dirt phobia, too. Even though you can eat off my floors in both my home and my studio, I don't expect big, popular cities to look like the grounds of Disneyworld and nor would I want them to. Disneyworld isn't reality and, frankly, I think Venice is remarkably clean when you consider how many visitors come and go each day. The fact that you're near the Sea and there isn't a car and a bus to be found anywhere makes Venice one of the cleanest big cities in Europe. (You definitely needed more time there. Or, maybe not.)

<i>&quot;In general, the canals were unique, but seeing the rats climb in and out of the water was a big turn-off.&quot;</i>

I can't believe I've never seen a rat in Venice. Jocelyn goes to Venice her first time, for a whole two days, and sees rats climb out of the water. Maybe my problem is when I'm in Venice I don't look down. Again, I'm just not sure why someone would mention a rat-sighting in their trip report. Read about dirt above.

<i>&quot;We found nothing appealing about San Marco, other than the dueling orchestras at night.&quot;</i>

It only happens to be one of the grandest piazzas in all of Italy and home to St. Mark's Cathedral. Jocelyn, dear, please stay in Tulsa and spend your vacation time in pretty, clean San Diego. Your take on Venice is killing me.

<i>&quot;Okay, I'm ready for the barbs.</i>

Well, you asked for it. Now read it again.

On tourist behavior:

So says the Mirror...

BRITS are the rudest, worst behaved and least adventurous holidaymakers in the world - and Germans the best.

Tourist offices placed us bottom of 24 countries, a survey said yesterday.

In contrast those sunbed bandits from Germany ranked highest for behaviour and their attempts to speak the local language. Dermot Halpin, boss of online travel service Expedia which conducted the survey, said: &quot;Much as it pains me to say it, the Germans deserve the best sunbeds.

&quot;British holidaymakers are some of the most widely travelled in the world. But that doesn't mean we're good at it.&quot; Expedia questioned tourist offices in 17 popular destinations worldwide. Britons were worst for rudeness, followed by Russians and Canadians.

They were also worst for their behaviour, learning the language and enthusiasm to try local delicacies.

Next on the bottom of the list were the Israelis, Irish and Indians. At the top, the Germans were followed by Americans, Japanese, Italians and French.

Americans were the most polite and most generous tippers and Italians the most adventurous eaters.

The Foreign Office said: &quot;A lot of our tourists are no worse than other nationals. Look how well behaved they were at the World Cup in Japan.&quot;