I can't speak for European sensitivities. However, if I can use Australian attitudes to make a general point: many of us are concerned that indiscriminate and automatic tipping could eventually lead to pressure from employers to reduce mandatory minimum wages in the hospitality industry. To many of us, this would be a small but insidious threat to a long history of maintaining decent wages and conditions for all workers in the face of employers and governments sympathetic to their interests; a foot in the door, if you like. We don't want to end up with US-level minimum wages.

This doesn't mean that Australians never tip, but if they do it's a small amount (<10%) and definitely in recognition of service above and beyond the call of duty. Our serving staff are paid a living wage and they no more rely on tips than do shop assistants (US: department store clerks), who are paid at a similar rate. As in the US, though, few waiters would treat their job as a lifetime career.

My point is that there could be local cultural/political aspects to an otherwise minor issue which a visitor may not appreciate. When travelling in China I didn't tip, not because I didn't appreciate the service I got (well, sometimes), but because the locals don't, and some foreigners have had their tips returned by staff who assumed they'd forgotten their change. How was I to know what local sensitivities might be involved? Best to do as the Romans do.

Thanks so very much for that clear advice, Eloise. We are leaving for Rome in a week and a half and it helps to know what the general protocol is before going. As a former waitress in the US, I usually tip very well since I know that is where most of the server's income comes from. I have run into the service fee included in some of the French Caribbean islands and it always felt a bit strange to not be tipping 20%. Adding a Euro or two to a nice lunch or dinner seems a good way to go, as you have described. Can't wait for those lovely lunches and dinners!!!! I just hope the weather improves.

WillTravel, heavens no! I don't think anybody is talking about that.

Once in Lyon, our waiter really was busy and clearly didn't want to answer any of our questions. A "busboy", probably about 16 years old came to our rescue on his own. He said he was learning English in school and would be happy to help us. They got very few Americans in that restaurant. He translated some of the menu, he explained the traditional dishes of Lyon, and we talked about things in America and in France. He ended up basically waiting on us. He smiled all evening, and as it was late and he wasn't busy he continued to talk with us -- mainly about "America". When we left, we handed him 20 francs (about three dollars at that time). Sure there are some that think what we did was degrading. The smile on his face clearly told us he was not degraded in the least. You know what, despite what some of you think, I don't feel the least bit guilty.

I get what you are saying, Neopolitan and Eloise. I typically tipped about a Euro or two on an 18-25 Euro meal. I was always eating when it wasn't crowded, and I still have to improve on being leisurely, so I didn't think it was unfair in the circumstances.

Please don't encourage Europeans to expect US levels of 'obligatory' tipping. A tip is a (small) reward for service, not an unavoidable 20% supplement. Round up to the nearest € or 5€ on a big bill by all means, but please please don't let us get into the ridiculous American situation where everyone requires tipping.

Does the service charge in Italy actually go to the waiter? Just curious, as usual.

All right, folks, here it is, the official word from the Italian Tourist Office:

http://www.italiantourism.com/tipsadv.html

(Scroll down to "Restaurants". Have a look at "Cafes", while you're at it.)

Ekscrunchy, I was actually trying to find an answer to your very good question. It seems to me that I did read somewhere at some time that the waiter did <b>not</b> receive the service charge or not all of it.

ekscrunchy, no, it doesn't. It goes to the establishment which then pays him a salary.
Incidentally, often if you add on extra to a credit card charge, it will still go to the establishment and not to the individual server.

wow, thanks guys. I didn't expect such a great debate. I guess we did good. I hate when I go to my hairdresser and pay her $70 for a simple color and cut, I am expected to tip on top of that! And she is an owner, but people still do it! I'd rather see service people paid better and not have to worry about tipping so much. That said, my daugher worked at Starbucks for two years, so whenever I get a latte (at a ridiculous price I might add) I always leave a tip in the jar because the kids really depend on dividing those tips at the end of the week).

That said, I found the service in Italy to be good, except for the waiter who got angry at my DH and gave him dirty looks for taking a small third helping from a vegetable antipasto buffet. And it was on our first day in Rome! Lisa

I plan on rounding up.

Who knows, I might leave extra if someone goes out of their way for me.

I undoubtedly won't leave a little extra if someone is rude to me.

Damn the torpedos and full speed ahead!

VS :-&quot;

Well Oldmyst, the tipping debate goes on and on, LOL. And Neil from Australia has given his viewpoint which I agree with. I always tip well in the US. But in Italy I tip as the Italians do, when in Rome etc.

At sit-down restaurants, we tried to tip more than a Euro or two because we had our kids with us. In some cases the waiters had items made for them not on the menu. And children are generally more work to clean up after.

The only time we didn't was when we ate by the Pantheon and the coperto was much higher.

I have to give a shoutout to Ira and his advice that bad service = a penny tip.

I spent a lot of my high school and all of my college years as a waitress in restaurants ranging from '50s-style burger joints to places with great wine lists. I financed my education with tips (starting wage for tipped employees was $2.01; meanwhile &quot;minimum wage&quot; was $5.35).

I spent some of those years training other servers. Believe me, there are many, many servers who believe the customer &quot;forgot&quot; or &quot;looked like the type who never tips&quot; when the real answer is that they were not doing their jobs well.

Leaving that penny (in the U.S.) sends a message if your service was truly bad.

And complain to the manager, too.

I am interested in shore excursions in Naples, Livorno and Messina. Can you refer me to tour guides since youmentioned this in your posting.
Thank you

Hi ekscrunchy
&gt;Ira is joking when he says to &quot;leave a penny&quot; for bad service. ... a silly gesture that only makes you, the leaver of the penny, look like a fool.&lt;

No, I wasn't joking. Waiters know that leaving a penny is different from leaving nothing at all, especially when you scoop up the change and leave just a penny.

Thanks for the backup, W.

((I))

Ira, what about talking to the manager and trying to get the situation rectified first? Once you have done that and the service has still not improved, then the place is probably so clueless that I would not even bother making a statement. Why even give up one penny to them? Just leave and do not return.