Tipping in Italy, After the fact
 

Ok, I am back from Italy, but something has been nagging me. I was very confused with whether we should have tipped or not. I figured service charge was built into the prices and they always charged a cuperto charge too. I think there were nights we left exact change and some nights we left some Euros. Also, I took two tours and I noticed no one offered to tip the tour guide, so we didn't also. Were we expected to? We gave a nice tip to the housekeeper. Were we suppose to tip the people who worked in the breakfast room? There were always different ones. Also, last question, do people tip the men and women who work the front desk at the hotel. There could any many as four or five for the day and night. I know it is after the fact, but for future reference. Lisa

Lisa, although it is hard to adjust to all my friends in Italy told me ages ago that one should not tip in Italy as we do in the US. I generally just round up and leave that as a little "something", but to this day don't feel comfortable doing that. But I know that the waiters in Italy are paid so much better than here. So what you did was fine. That is exactly what my friends in Italy do (I have always made a point of discreetly noticing).

I have never ever tipped any desk person in a hotel. I do give a tip to housekeeping in an envelope. My friends say that is alright to do. As far as the Breakfast room employees I don't know as I prefer to go to a cafe for coffee but I don't "think" a tip is required or expected especially since you didn't have the same person constantly.

I haven't taken a day tour for so long I do not know what the custom is and can't remember what my husband did. If no one else tipped the guide I imagine you handled that properly. Doubt if any of my Italian friends would know as they don't take daytours of course. Good question though. It sounds to me like you handled the tipping situation just fine.

Usually you tip a tour guide, but you tip desk people who have gone out of the way to book restaurants for you..
All these tips are to show an appreciation. Never over tip. The locals don't.

Hi O,

You did right.

In general, in Europe pay scales are higher than in the US and people don't rely on tips as they have to do in the US.

A tip is a little extra to show that you are pleased with service beyond the usual call of duty.

If you are displeased, leave a penny.

((I))

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If you are displeased, leave a penny
>>>>

i suppose in america, people leave a tiny tip to let the waiter know that you did not forget to tip but that the service was bad.

this concept is totally foreign in europe and a tiny tip does not give this message. do this at home if you must but don't bother to do it in europe as it is a meaningless gesture.

Tipping should be personal IMO and since the level of service doesn't necessarily correspond to the local pay scale and living wage I, personally, see no reason to tie your tip amount to anything OTHER than the level of service received.

Consoling oneself with the notion that these people "don't work for tips" is one way to deal with it I suppose.

Another possible measure; If YOU did for you what THEY just did for you, would you expect a tip?

A few years ago, at a restaurant in Verona, we were virtually sharing a table with an Italian couple (the tables were only about an inch apart). We chatted a bit with them (they told us how much they loved America, we told them how much we loved Italy).

At the end of the meal, after we paid the bill, my husband started to put down a tip - I think 10% -- standard English tip. The Italian wife said, "No, no. Too much." She then took a much much smaller amount from the bills in my husband's hand, and put it on the table. "That's the right amount," she said, and watched to make sure he put the rest back in his wallet.

Tipping is neither expected nor required in Italy but a "little extra" is always appreciated when given. If the service has been very good, an extra Euro or two for good restaurant service, and rounding off the fare to the nearest Euro for cab drivers.

I always leave something for the housekeepers and breakfast staff. If they are different over the course of your stay you can leave the tip with the management and specify who it's for. Front desk staff don't expect tips, but if someone has been especially helpful, you might want to give something. I don't generally take tours but if a guide does a good job I think a tip is in order.

Ira is joking when he says to "leave a penny" for bad service. Please do not get the idea that this is something that Americans consider routine behavior. If service is truly abysmal you ought to make a complaint, not a silly gesture that only makes you, the leaver of the penny, look like a fool.

>>>>
I, personally, see no reason to tie your tip amount to anything OTHER than the level of service received.
>>>>

tipping should be based first on local convention, adjusted for the level of service received. it's not helpful to say that tipping should just be based on service because there are different expectations everywhere. for example, when in america i know i have to tip more and for things that i would not tip for in europe. just a fact of life.

i'm not one of those people who say that tipping too much is an insult. most europeans in the service industry have seen a few americans in their time and know that they tip more or in situations that are not according to the local norms.

mjsilver..."adjusting" a relative stranger's tip amount (whether up or down) is just plain rude. the nerve of these people...unless you were asking for advice, what you tip is none of their business. imagine if you told them in England or the US that they should tip more than what they were trying to leave on the table! rude.

When a local Italian dines in a restaurant, he knows what he is doing. When I dine in one, I sometimes become "high maintenance". I often take a lot of extra time from the server attempting to converse in bad Italian, asking lots of questions about the food or wine, and generally receive really nice service from them. I WILL NOT feel guilty about leaving a nice tip to that waiter who has gone out of his way to treat me well and to take a lot more time dealing with me than with his usual local patrons.

Overtip? What does that mean? Is that like saying it's OK to say "thank you", but never, ever say "I REALLY thank you"? How can someone be TOO kind or TOO appreciative?

<<Overtip? What does that mean? Is that like saying it's OK to say "thank you", but never, ever say "I REALLY thank you"? How can someone be TOO kind or TOO appreciative?>>

Overgiving is quite a common and embarrassing problem. Everyone can recall Christmas or birthday presents that are over the top. You must accept the Eupopean attitude of waiting on tables as a profession rather than a menial job. Then think of how your accountant, doctor, local shopkeeper, teacher would react to a monetary tip. It is delicate because giving a person money CAN emphasize a power difference as in, "Here is some money - I can afford it - you can't."
I would be interested in a European reaction to this.

Thank you for that laugh. Yes, of course giving a waiter in an Italian Cafe a couple euro is just like offering my doctor a tip. Now I get it.

I have talked to numerous French and Italians who have finally admitted that the real reason they don't like seeing Americans give larger tips is because the waiters might grow to expect it, and because it makes them look less appreciative.

Yes, Neo, I think you are coming closer to a better understanding. However I don't believe you are correct in believing <<the real reason they don't like seeing Americans give larger tips is because the waiters might grow to expect it>>.
Michael Lynn, a professor of consumer behavior at Cornell University, believes that overtipping can be a sign of a large ego or a thinly veiled attempt by an insecure person to buy approval. Hmmm....
<<Overtip? What does that mean? Is that like saying it's OK to say "thank you", but never, ever say "I REALLY thank you"? How can someone be TOO kind or TOO appreciative?>>

I've been sensitive about tipping because my brother spent years in the western hospitality system - and tips were really his salary. But I got "caught" over-tipping in Alassio after a meal where we misunderstood the menu and were comp'd the mistaken dish. The owner finally yielded when I asked her to give the extra to the chef, but then made us drink grappa with the staff for an hour after she closed!

Can't we settle this with some kind of compromise?

Every Italian waiter knows who is an American tourist and who isn't. And he's known enough American tourists to know that, by and large, they tend to tip more generously.

He doesn't expect his local regulars to tip very much; most of them are probably in the restaurant at least once a week.

There is lots of room between the left over small change that a local might leave and the 10% to 15% that an American tourist might leave. One or two Euro is not going to bankrupt an American tourist, nor is it going to change how the Italian economy works.

And incidentally, an Italian friend, Roman born and bred, always tipped. And he always got the friendliest service, the best recommendations on what was particularly good that evening as well as small extra plates of this and that: "I thought you might like to try a little bit of this" - without charge, of course.

As a neophyte traveler, I have to agree with both Eloise and, to an extent, Neopolitan's first posting. I definitely felt "high-maintenance" due to lack of knowledge, but I also felt very well cared-for and wished to say thank you with a tip. I never intended to be insulting and I never felt that the recipient viewed it that way - in fact just the opposite!

IMHO tipping is a personal thing and you should handle it as you feel comfortable.

My quote about why Italians and French look down on tipping was not meant to be an interpretation or MY opinion. It was a quote --what some French and some Italians have actually told me. I don't suggest that any study would necessarily put them in the majority, but it is a FACT that the quote was THEIR opinion.

And yes, Eloise, I agree that it is silly for "foreigners" to think that if Americans tip their waiters that those waiters will grow to expect it from them as well. On the other hand, it is not a stretch to believe that today most waiters DO expect a little more tip from Americans.

My honest opinion? I suspect some foreigners don't like to see us leave large tips for the same reason my cheapskate friends who don't tip over 10% here even in really fine restaurants, don't like to see me leave 20%. It makes THEM feel bad. It is a stretch for them to say their concern is for the feelings of the waiter!

Keep in mind that the price at an Italian restaurant includes a 15% service charge.

If you go to a restaurant in the US, say on a group booking, and they've pre-added a 15% service charge for your group, as is often done, do you then feel obligated to tip another 20% on top of that, or do you consider that 15% service charge when making your tipping decision?

WillTravel, I don't think anyone is talking about leaving a 20% tip in addition to the 15% service charge.

But if I have a long, lovely lunch with wine for 35 Euro, the included service charge is 5.25 Euro. If I add 2 Euro to that, the total service charge and tip is a wee bit over 20%. I don't see that as grossly overtipping, particularly if the service has been friendly and patient, the meal has been good, and - let's not forget - I've occupied that table for 2 hours or so, making mine the only service charge and tip the waiter will receive for that table at lunch that day.

If I run into a pizzeria, have a taglio of pizza and a mineral water and run out, I'm obviously not going to leave more than the left over change.

One should differentiate a little between apples and oranges...

I can't speak for European sensitivities. However, if I can use Australian attitudes to make a general point: many of us are concerned that indiscriminate and automatic tipping could eventually lead to pressure from employers to reduce mandatory minimum wages in the hospitality industry. To many of us, this would be a small but insidious threat to a long history of maintaining decent wages and conditions for all workers in the face of employers and governments sympathetic to their interests; a foot in the door, if you like. We don't want to end up with US-level minimum wages.

This doesn't mean that Australians never tip, but if they do it's a small amount (<10%) and definitely in recognition of service above and beyond the call of duty. Our serving staff are paid a living wage and they no more rely on tips than do shop assistants (US: department store clerks), who are paid at a similar rate. As in the US, though, few waiters would treat their job as a lifetime career.

My point is that there could be local cultural/political aspects to an otherwise minor issue which a visitor may not appreciate. When travelling in China I didn't tip, not because I didn't appreciate the service I got (well, sometimes), but because the locals don't, and some foreigners have had their tips returned by staff who assumed they'd forgotten their change. How was I to know what local sensitivities might be involved? Best to do as the Romans do.

Thanks so very much for that clear advice, Eloise. We are leaving for Rome in a week and a half and it helps to know what the general protocol is before going. As a former waitress in the US, I usually tip very well since I know that is where most of the server's income comes from. I have run into the service fee included in some of the French Caribbean islands and it always felt a bit strange to not be tipping 20%. Adding a Euro or two to a nice lunch or dinner seems a good way to go, as you have described. Can't wait for those lovely lunches and dinners!!!! I just hope the weather improves.

WillTravel, heavens no! I don't think anybody is talking about that.

Once in Lyon, our waiter really was busy and clearly didn't want to answer any of our questions. A "busboy", probably about 16 years old came to our rescue on his own. He said he was learning English in school and would be happy to help us. They got very few Americans in that restaurant. He translated some of the menu, he explained the traditional dishes of Lyon, and we talked about things in America and in France. He ended up basically waiting on us. He smiled all evening, and as it was late and he wasn't busy he continued to talk with us -- mainly about "America". When we left, we handed him 20 francs (about three dollars at that time). Sure there are some that think what we did was degrading. The smile on his face clearly told us he was not degraded in the least. You know what, despite what some of you think, I don't feel the least bit guilty.

I get what you are saying, Neopolitan and Eloise. I typically tipped about a Euro or two on an 18-25 Euro meal. I was always eating when it wasn't crowded, and I still have to improve on being leisurely, so I didn't think it was unfair in the circumstances.

Please don't encourage Europeans to expect US levels of 'obligatory' tipping. A tip is a (small) reward for service, not an unavoidable 20% supplement. Round up to the nearest € or 5€ on a big bill by all means, but please please don't let us get into the ridiculous American situation where everyone requires tipping.

Does the service charge in Italy actually go to the waiter? Just curious, as usual.

All right, folks, here it is, the official word from the Italian Tourist Office:

http://www.italiantourism.com/tipsadv.html

(Scroll down to "Restaurants". Have a look at "Cafes", while you're at it.)

Ekscrunchy, I was actually trying to find an answer to your very good question. It seems to me that I did read somewhere at some time that the waiter did <b>not</b> receive the service charge or not all of it.

ekscrunchy, no, it doesn't. It goes to the establishment which then pays him a salary.
Incidentally, often if you add on extra to a credit card charge, it will still go to the establishment and not to the individual server.

wow, thanks guys. I didn't expect such a great debate. I guess we did good. I hate when I go to my hairdresser and pay her $70 for a simple color and cut, I am expected to tip on top of that! And she is an owner, but people still do it! I'd rather see service people paid better and not have to worry about tipping so much. That said, my daugher worked at Starbucks for two years, so whenever I get a latte (at a ridiculous price I might add) I always leave a tip in the jar because the kids really depend on dividing those tips at the end of the week).

That said, I found the service in Italy to be good, except for the waiter who got angry at my DH and gave him dirty looks for taking a small third helping from a vegetable antipasto buffet. And it was on our first day in Rome! Lisa

I plan on rounding up.

Who knows, I might leave extra if someone goes out of their way for me.

I undoubtedly won't leave a little extra if someone is rude to me.

Damn the torpedos and full speed ahead!

VS :-&quot;

Well Oldmyst, the tipping debate goes on and on, LOL. And Neil from Australia has given his viewpoint which I agree with. I always tip well in the US. But in Italy I tip as the Italians do, when in Rome etc.

At sit-down restaurants, we tried to tip more than a Euro or two because we had our kids with us. In some cases the waiters had items made for them not on the menu. And children are generally more work to clean up after.

The only time we didn't was when we ate by the Pantheon and the coperto was much higher.

I have to give a shoutout to Ira and his advice that bad service = a penny tip.

I spent a lot of my high school and all of my college years as a waitress in restaurants ranging from '50s-style burger joints to places with great wine lists. I financed my education with tips (starting wage for tipped employees was $2.01; meanwhile &quot;minimum wage&quot; was $5.35).

I spent some of those years training other servers. Believe me, there are many, many servers who believe the customer &quot;forgot&quot; or &quot;looked like the type who never tips&quot; when the real answer is that they were not doing their jobs well.

Leaving that penny (in the U.S.) sends a message if your service was truly bad.

And complain to the manager, too.

I am interested in shore excursions in Naples, Livorno and Messina. Can you refer me to tour guides since youmentioned this in your posting.
Thank you

Hi ekscrunchy
&gt;Ira is joking when he says to &quot;leave a penny&quot; for bad service. ... a silly gesture that only makes you, the leaver of the penny, look like a fool.&lt;

No, I wasn't joking. Waiters know that leaving a penny is different from leaving nothing at all, especially when you scoop up the change and leave just a penny.

Thanks for the backup, W.

((I))

Ira, what about talking to the manager and trying to get the situation rectified first? Once you have done that and the service has still not improved, then the place is probably so clueless that I would not even bother making a statement. Why even give up one penny to them? Just leave and do not return.