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Yes, willful disregard of tipping norms makes me angry.Originally Posted by wildiowa
kja....you mad?
And no, my sanity is not at issue. The examples I gave in post # 39 have all been discussed on Fodor’s before, along with other examples of the ways in which overtipping can create problems for local people and contribute to negative perceptions of people from the U.S., or U.S.A. if you prefer.
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Among the consequences of these behaviors: Japanese people are forced to provide a way to allow tips without actually accepting them. (That began happening in South Korea nearly a decade ago.) The recommended percentage for tips in other countries rises. Local people have difficulty getting service because service providers favor Americans. (That began happening in Beijing 15 years ago.) IMO, these are sad and unnecessary outcomes.
Imao! I think you are the only that is mad. I doubt the people that received tips from those ugly Americans when home angry or had a nervous breakdown. Originally Posted by kja
As I see it, failure to adjust to the norms of another culture, instead imposing one's own cultural norms, is ugly. And as I see it, throwing money around when it is not appropriate is ugly. You are free to see it differently.Among the consequences of these behaviors: Japanese people are forced to provide a way to allow tips without actually accepting them. (That began happening in South Korea nearly a decade ago.) The recommended percentage for tips in other countries rises. Local people have difficulty getting service because service providers favor Americans. (That began happening in Beijing 15 years ago.) IMO, these are sad and unnecessary outcomes.
Minimum wage in the following countries
¥1,226 Tokyo
€11.88 Paris
£12.21 London
Italy has no statutory minimum wage, servers are paid between 7 and 9 euro an hour. I didn't used to tip much there until I learned this from a local friend, now I tip between 5 and 10% depending on the place, service etc. I think tipping is insane in the US and indeed here in Canada as well but I am happy to tip 5 to 10% for good service in a place which has such low wages.
One of my other friends is an ex-pat from here married to an Italian, among other things she works for Ferragamo during the trade shows in Milan. She said they are incredibly tight fisted with their pay and you are expected to work all day long and late into the night if buyers are wanting to see you at 11:00pm, with zero extra pay. Before covid nobody had had a raise in years so she took it upon herself to go to bat to get them all a raise. The Italian women were nervous and not willing to ask but she got them all on board and was the spokesperson and was successful, however that was a number of years ago and zero raise since. I think about this every time I look at the prices on their merchandise.
One thing I would never do is tip someone in another country with my currency.
One of my other friends is an ex-pat from here married to an Italian, among other things she works for Ferragamo during the trade shows in Milan. She said they are incredibly tight fisted with their pay and you are expected to work all day long and late into the night if buyers are wanting to see you at 11:00pm, with zero extra pay. Before covid nobody had had a raise in years so she took it upon herself to go to bat to get them all a raise. The Italian women were nervous and not willing to ask but she got them all on board and was the spokesperson and was successful, however that was a number of years ago and zero raise since. I think about this every time I look at the prices on their merchandise.
One thing I would never do is tip someone in another country with my currency.
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It seems you aren't good at reading the room. It isn't just kja. There are at least 7 or 8 separate individuals who have expressed that North Americans bringing their over-tipping culture to Europe is rude - or - insensitive - or - ugly American-ism - or - just plain smug.Originally Posted by cafegoddess
Imao! I think you are the only that is mad . . .
Oh I apologize janisj for not including you. I am sure when you are at the Savoy in London you always tell your server as you sip your champagne, that you are not an ugly America, so please kindly take out that 12% service charge. My bad.
raincitygirl
I found out while I was staging in Florence, Italy that restaurant workers are paid very little and was not being paid on time.
I found out while I was staging in Florence, Italy that restaurant workers are paid very little and was not being paid on time.
I’m quite certain that residents of Beijing who can no longer get a taxi at the main train station because taxi drivers are only taking people they think will pay the “stupid foreigner tax” are people who give a whit. I know, because I spoke to some of them about it.
I’m quite certain that residents of Japan who are distressed about the unnecessary evocation of their deeply held norm for reciprocity in gift-giving are people who care about it. I know, because I spoke to some of them about it.
I’m quite certain that residents of Seoul who are embarrassed by being given tips are people who would prefer that people would honor the local non-tipping norm. I know, because I spoke to some of them about it.
I’m quite certain that wait staff in the U.S. do not like it when people from other countries either don’t tip or tip less than is normative here. I know, because I spoke to some of them about it … and because I once relied on tips to cover my living expenses.
I’m reasonably confident that many people who overtip (relative to local norms) when traveling do so with the best of intentions.
And I’m reasonably confident that some of you will continue to do what you’ve always done, no matter what you learn about tipping norms or their reasons.
But maybe, just maybe, some of you – or some of the others who read this thread – will pause for a moment to consider that there may be consequences to your behavior that you haven’t contemplated.
“When in Rome…” really is good advice.
I’m quite certain that residents of Japan who are distressed about the unnecessary evocation of their deeply held norm for reciprocity in gift-giving are people who care about it. I know, because I spoke to some of them about it.
I’m quite certain that residents of Seoul who are embarrassed by being given tips are people who would prefer that people would honor the local non-tipping norm. I know, because I spoke to some of them about it.
I’m quite certain that wait staff in the U.S. do not like it when people from other countries either don’t tip or tip less than is normative here. I know, because I spoke to some of them about it … and because I once relied on tips to cover my living expenses.
I’m reasonably confident that many people who overtip (relative to local norms) when traveling do so with the best of intentions.
And I’m reasonably confident that some of you will continue to do what you’ve always done, no matter what you learn about tipping norms or their reasons.
But maybe, just maybe, some of you – or some of the others who read this thread – will pause for a moment to consider that there may be consequences to your behavior that you haven’t contemplated.
“When in Rome…” really is good advice.
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I found out while I was staging in Florence, Italy that restaurant workers are paid very little and was not being paid on time.
Yes and often in the busy season they are expected to work extra hours and days with no choice and no overtime pay.Originally Posted by cafegoddess
raincitygirlI found out while I was staging in Florence, Italy that restaurant workers are paid very little and was not being paid on time.
