The Demise of Le Plastique in France
 

Before i left for France in January i had read here that plastic bags were not being given out in supermarkets anymore and you have to bring your own bag or buy a reusable shopping bag.

And though it seems the death of Le Plastique was greatly exaggerated as i had them thrust at me without asking at several smaller supermarkets in Paris, indeed at hypermarches like Carrefour they had disappeared.

And this seems to be a Pan-European trend. I hear Ireland has instituted a signficant charge for each plastic bag to discourage use and other countries are contemplating similar moves.

Even San Francisco - well not even San Francisco because this is not so surprising on the Left Coast is currently debating a ban on plastic bags - though paper will still be offered.

Thank God we may soon hear the end of the rather bothersome question: "Paper or plastic?"

As European supermarkets have never used paper bags in my 38 years of traveling there, you more and more must bring your own.

In Holland, Germany and Italy i still got free plastic bags at supermarkets but i wonder what the situation is in other countries?

I only regreat the disappearance of the plastic grocery bag because when in an unfamiliar city i always watch for the parade of folks carrying plastic bags full of groceries to track down the supermarket!

You ask about the situation in other countries so I'll tell you.
Some years ago (5-7?)can't remember exactly, our government made a law that plastic bags could no longer be given out FREELY. The plastic also had to be of a certain thickness - heavy rather than flimsy.
Well, we now all buy the bags at the checkout or brings your old crumpled up ones with you and give them to the packer at the end of the checkout counter OR bring a cloth bag that would hold a small amount of items.
Where has this got us? Well the store doesn't have to buy in bags at their own expense any longer, but other than that I think we still have a big plastic problem in South Africa.

I'm sitting here waiting for the inevitable "It's a nasty plot by 'the Left'" post but not holding my breath.

Pal - we have to pay for plastic bags in Holland - how did you get free ones???
Our council has just announced it is installing recycling bins for plastics. As we now have house to house collection of paper most of the paper collection points are to be converted to plastic collection points. Hooray! More sorting and lugging. But i don't really mind that much. Just glad they collect the papers now, at least plastic doesn't weight much.

>...currently debating a ban on plastic bags - though paper will still be offered. <

Why is it better to destroy a tree than fill up a landfill?

Are there any data that show that paper bags require less energy than plastic bags?

Is this just a nefarious plot by the Left?

((I))

indeed paper could be more anti-environmental than plastic - much heavier and thus much more fuel expended to transport paper bags to the store and later to the landfill or recycling center.

Of course the idea solution is like in France - bring your own reusable grocery bag. Then you only have laundry costs if cleaning it to worry about environmentally.

Monoprix and Franprix are still giving out free bags. In places where you have to pay, the thin ordinary bags cost 3 eurocents. Other heavier ones are available ("exchangeable free of charge when worn out") for 10 cents and 20 cents. Of course, in France we have still not all fully adjusted to the change, so most of us have more of the exchangeable bags than we know what to do with, having found ourselves going to the store while forgetting the other bags at home.

In the Carrefour in Saran where i often go when in France i did not see any thin plastic bags being sold or given out - just some super-heavy reusable bag but i don't know what it costs - more than 10 or 15 euro cents it seemed for such a bag i would think.

I always have a day pack so the change doesn't bother me and i applaud it.

The main difference, as I understand it, is that petroleum (plastic) doesn't grow on trees. This is known as a <i>non-renewable</i> resource.

Also - in the process of growing new grocery bags, trees absorb carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and convert it to carbohydrate.

But single-use and even recyclable aren't long-term solutions. Permanent shopping bags are.

Now if we can just get a worldwide ban on aluminum cans...

&quot;Why is it better to destroy a tree than fill up a landfill?&quot;

Ira must live in an amazing country. They've got destructible trees. Everywhere I've been, damn things just grow up all over again.

The problem is also packaging - way too much - cans actually a lot less full than their size indicates.

And i've heard that trees made for paper yes grow back so quick that there is negligible loss in forest cover, in fact companies are planting more and more on presently non-forested grounds.

RE:

&gt;&quot;Why is it better to destroy a tree than fill up a landfill?&quot;&lt;

&gt;Everywhere I've been, damn things just grow up all over again.

&gt;... i've heard that trees made for paper yes grow back so quick that there is negligible loss in forest cover,..&lt;

Well, if 25 years is quick...

Modern tree farming practice removes a 1 mile square.

The square is replanted (the trees don't just grow back), and ready for harvest in about 25 yrs.

Roads must be built to the cutting site.

Petroleum products are used to fell, log and cultivate the trees, as well as to make paper.

A Kraft paper plant produces CO2 as well as Sulfur compounds.

Plastic bags can be recycled.

((I))

Unfortunately the ground they're planting on isn't &quot;non-forested&quot;, it's just forested with trees that are unsuitable for pulp. Which they cut down in order to plant the fast-growing softwoods. This would be terrific if all trees and all forests were the same. But they're not.

In some parts of the world, like Australia (the world's largest exporter of wood chips and wood pulp), planting for these purposes is the leading cause of destruction of old growth forest. They're wiping out their ancient forests, and their rich ecosystems, and replacing them with single-purpose farmed trees that are destroying habitat for many threatened species, demolishing watersheds, and so on.

Wood pulp tree farms are not an environmental panacea, and are often in fact worse than the thing they're replacing. Tasmania has already lost a ridiculous portion of its spectacular eucalypt forests to softwood plantations. Where I live, in the Pacific NW, in the middle of the largest temperate arboreal forest on earth, it's almost entirely been replaced by tree farms, hidden from view by narrow strips of larger trees left for screening.

The primary justification for getting rid of plastic bags is simply litter: unsightliness. But the paper is probably much more damaging to the real environment.

Permanent bags!

Ira and fnar seem to make excellent points. I know Ira is from Georgia which is one of America's top paper producing states i believe and may be on top of this.

I thougth another problem with plastic bags was that in some parts of the world they are so thin that they are only good for one use and then people just throw them out...leading to a lot of wispy bags being blown all over the place. They then get eaten by animals and clutter up the place. At least I saw on the news that this was a problem in some African nations.

I will really miss the plastic bags here in the states...we use them for lots of things once they come home from the grocery store. I'm not sure how I'll pack for a trip w/out all the bags I use...not to mention:
kids lunches to school
bag for gym clothes in car
trash can in car
trash bags for small trash cans
laundry bag on business trips
my list goes on...and on...and on...

The French law doesn't come into effect until 2008, however certain supermarkets are being keen and have stopped giving them away for free already.

You should have reusable shopping bags of your own, which are by defintion not disposible.

The paper vs plastic argument disappears in puff of logic.

DUH!

The African bags that were in the news recently are extremely thin -- thinner than the produce bags in American supermarkets, let alone the tan or white ones at checkout. They rip when you look at them hard, and then they fly around like feathers, lodging everywhere. The tan ones I use as trash bags -- I've even got a garbage can in the kitchen that is designed to hold them specially.

I use the paper ones for our food waste can next to it -- yes, in Seattle we now recycle our (non-meat) food waste, with our yard waste, to be made into compost.

I have cloth bags I bring to the store (in the US) after seeing this widely done in Europe... it still confuses most supermarket baggers though. They try to overfill the bags.

I look forward to a day when each bag costs $0.50- that might actually get people to act responsibly.

%%-

&gt;You should have reusable shopping bags of your own, which are by defintion not disposible. &lt;

Like we did 60 ears ago?

Talk about radical reactionaries!

((I))

Regarding uses of plastic bags after shopping: someone on a SF Pet Forum was wailing about how was she going to clean up after her dog now! Will this be a problem in France too?

My experience is that Iceland, Faroe, Norway and Irish Republic are 'no free bag' areas. In UK some stores (mainly the continental ones) don't give them either.

My Safeway grocery store has a container where you can put your excess plastic bags to be recycled.

However, I guess I'm one of those raging lefties! I bought cloth bags ten or fifteen years ago, and I normally use them when I shop. They hold more groceries than either paper or plastic, and they make excellent sense environmentally. I just keep them in the trunk of my car, so they're handy when I need them.

When I'm in Europe, I use a bookstore bag of about the same size as my grocery bags.

I doubt plastic bags in supermarkets would disappear without some form of legislation. Supermarkets would Hate us to limit our spending to how much will fit in the bags we brought with us.

Thoouh here in Australia, you can buy very sturdy cloth bags for only 99c so if you do overspend, it's easy to add another green bag to your collection. The trick is to remember to get them out of the car!

We haven't had free plastic bags at the supermarkets I shop at in the Dordogne in a dog's age.

And I'm still not used to actually making it to the store with my bags or baskets in hand. Somehow I always manage to either forget them (and end up buying new ones, which explains the 30 or so Intermarch&eacute; bags I've accumulated over the years), or get to them to the ca but forget to take them into the store with me.

About the SF debacle about dogging doo and plastic bags - around here it seems blue NYTimes plastic paper bags or other newspaper bags are ideal for this.

I wonder if SF has also banned plastic wrappers on newspaper deliveries?

In Seattle getting rid of plastic bags around newspapers would mean getting rid of newspapers. It's damp here.

They used to have a plastic tube with the newspaper's name on it attached to the mailboxes, but if they did that now here the neighborhood kids would set off bombs in it.

TORONTO (Reuters) - A small Canadian town claimed the honor on Monday of being the first municipality in North America to ban retailers from using plastic bags, in an effort to maintain its pristine environment.

The town's administrator said Leaf Rapids, a northern Manitoba mining town about 975 km (610 miles) northwest of Winnipeg, has ordered retailers to stop giving away or selling single-use plastic bags as of Monday. Stores that break the law face a C$1,000 ($865) fine.

Actually it was a story on our local CBC station - the National that was largely about Toronto's efforts to do the same that prompted by OP.

&quot;Thank God we may soon hear the end of the rather bothersome question: &quot;Paper or plastic?&quot;

You are given an alternative choice : carry your own reusable bag.


&quot;As European supermarkets have never used paper bags in my 38 years of traveling there, you more and more must bring your own&quot;
Some of them have never used bags at all (Lidl, Aldi, etc..). People have adapted and never felt the need to make a fuss about it.


&quot;I only regreat the disappearance of the plastic grocery bag because when in an unfamiliar city i always watch for the parade of folks carrying plastic bags full of groceries to track down the supermarket&quot;.

Considering the small amount of time it takes to ask for the direction to the nearest supermarket and the huge amount of time it takes for a plastic bag to stop being an environmental nuisance, it's worth the effort to just ask.

I visited the UK a few weeks back to pick up some supplies and was inundated with plastic bags by all the major supermarkets.

In France where I've had a house for over 13 years, I have never had plastic bags from the supermarkets here.

Paper bags are indeed rare in France, but when my parents retired to B&eacute;ziers, France in 1972, the Casino supermarket across the street from them used paper bags. One of the first things they had to learn is that a bag was not called &quot;un sac&quot; in B&eacute;ziers but &quot;une poche&quot;!

Paper bags are indeed rare in France, but when my parents retired to B&eacute;ziers, France in 1972, the Casino supermarket across the street from them used paper bags. One of the first things they had to learn is that a bag was not called &quot;un sac&quot; in B&eacute;ziers but &quot;une poche&quot;!

What's so special about it? It all depends on the area where you live. It can be une bourse, un sac en papier, un sac en plastique, un pochon. A mop is a une toile in the South, a wassingue in the North and a serpili&egrave;re in between.
No big deal.
Fruit is usually purchased in paper bags at the market.

In 30 years of living in or traveling throughout Europe I can't remember getting a free plastic bag in a grocery, except maybe in France. We always paid about a dime equivalent for the store plastic bag. That is why people brought their own shopping bags or baskets to market.

OTOH, green grocers would wrap the veggies in flat paper, making a show of their folding skill.

Plastic bags were given out freely at hardware stores, clothing shops, etc. always with the store name on them.

This week San Francisco will ban plastic bags from grovery stores there - the de-platification of the world started in France and Europe it seems and is going west.

Watch out when visiting the supermarket section of Monoprix. Certain checkout lines are now labeled &quot;for reusable bags only -- no bags distributed in this line&quot;. And since the warning is marked in French only, this may be a challenge for some of you.

There are a lot of theories and opinions in this thread, but, in the end, who's gonna pay for it? YOU the customer. As usual.

Supermarkets in Belgium gave out free (thin) plastic bags until recently. Our local GB has started charging about 3 cents for a small bag. Some stores, like Rob's, still give out free bags. But we've been bringing our own heavy duty bags for years anyway. If they get torn, the stores where you bought them will replace them for free.
Although all the grocery stores we shop at in the UK still hand out free bags, we use our own bags, except for raw meat...we still bag raw meat separately so that we don't contanimate the reusable bag. The meat bag then goes into the dog's &quot;poop bag&quot; container (although we usually use biodegradable poop bags bought at the pet store).
AFAIK, American stores like Costco require that you bring your own bags or boxes.
When we shop at farmers' markets in the US, we bring our own bags as well. No big deal.

There are a lot of theories and opinions in this thread, but, in the end, who's gonna pay for it? YOU the customer. As usual.

i've heard several 'experts' say all the money spent in Iraq - for the war and to give medical attention to the many more seriously wounded than even those killed and who will require care for years

plus future monies we will have to spend in Iraq -

all that money could have funded universe health care for several years!

yes taxpayers going to pay for it but tax monies can be better used than to find an ill-advise, winless war.

and those who think the taxpayer is going to pay for universal health care - that's a rather naive casual look

the folks who don't have health care and don't get preventative care do end up in the ER when they get ill and if seriously ill - the government in some form or other pays the chit.

and industries too are finding that they can become less competitive due to rising health care costs - a government plan relieving them of this could reap benefits in better business and less unemployment.

But the real reason for universal single-payer health care is that we are a compassionate society and everyone should get the best health care possible and this is a cost a compassionate society should bear - with efforts of course to keep health care costs (doctor fees, drug company profits, etc.) as low as possible

universla health care may indeed cost less to society than our current system.

PQ, I think you're on the wrong thread.

&lt;There are a lot of theories and opinions in this thread, but, in the end, who's gonna pay for it? YOU the customer. As usual.&gt;

If my local stores stop using plastic bags and customers have to bring their own reuseable bags how am i the customer going to pay for this?

Store's bag costs go down - maybe prices will be lowered? Or do you mean the customer will pay because of that of inconvience - having to bring their own bag - if that's the case then i'll gladly pay this prices for a better environment - such as hanging from tops of trees

(97-98% of plastic bags, though 100% recylable, end up either in landfills or blowing around in the environment)

U.S. uses 100 billion platic bags a year (right now on NPR these stats) - takes up a lot of oil.