PalenQ

Before i left for France in January i had read here that plastic bags were not being given out in supermarkets anymore and you have to bring your own bag or buy a reusable shopping bag.

And though it seems the death of Le Plastique was greatly exaggerated as i had them thrust at me without asking at several smaller supermarkets in Paris, indeed at hypermarches like Carrefour they had disappeared.

And this seems to be a Pan-European trend. I hear Ireland has instituted a signficant charge for each plastic bag to discourage use and other countries are contemplating similar moves.

Even San Francisco - well not even San Francisco because this is not so surprising on the Left Coast is currently debating a ban on plastic bags - though paper will still be offered.

Thank God we may soon hear the end of the rather bothersome question: "Paper or plastic?"

As European supermarkets have never used paper bags in my 38 years of traveling there, you more and more must bring your own.

In Holland, Germany and Italy i still got free plastic bags at supermarkets but i wonder what the situation is in other countries?

I only regreat the disappearance of the plastic grocery bag because when in an unfamiliar city i always watch for the parade of folks carrying plastic bags full of groceries to track down the supermarket!

tod

You ask about the situation in other countries so I'll tell you.
Some years ago (5-7?)can't remember exactly, our government made a law that plastic bags could no longer be given out FREELY. The plastic also had to be of a certain thickness - heavy rather than flimsy.
Well, we now all buy the bags at the checkout or brings your old crumpled up ones with you and give them to the packer at the end of the checkout counter OR bring a cloth bag that would hold a small amount of items.
Where has this got us? Well the store doesn't have to buy in bags at their own expense any longer, but other than that I think we still have a big plastic problem in South Africa.

Dukey

I'm sitting here waiting for the inevitable "It's a nasty plot by 'the Left'" post but not holding my breath.

hetismij

Pal - we have to pay for plastic bags in Holland - how did you get free ones???
Our council has just announced it is installing recycling bins for plastics. As we now have house to house collection of paper most of the paper collection points are to be converted to plastic collection points. Hooray! More sorting and lugging. But i don't really mind that much. Just glad they collect the papers now, at least plastic doesn't weight much.

ira

>...currently debating a ban on plastic bags - though paper will still be offered. <

Why is it better to destroy a tree than fill up a landfill?

Are there any data that show that paper bags require less energy than plastic bags?

Is this just a nefarious plot by the Left?

PalenQ

indeed paper could be more anti-environmental than plastic - much heavier and thus much more fuel expended to transport paper bags to the store and later to the landfill or recycling center.

Of course the idea solution is like in France - bring your own reusable grocery bag. Then you only have laundry costs if cleaning it to worry about environmentally.

kerouac

Monoprix and Franprix are still giving out free bags. In places where you have to pay, the thin ordinary bags cost 3 eurocents. Other heavier ones are available ("exchangeable free of charge when worn out&quot for 10 cents and 20 cents. Of course, in France we have still not all fully adjusted to the change, so most of us have more of the exchangeable bags than we know what to do with, having found ourselves going to the store while forgetting the other bags at home.

PalenQ

In the Carrefour in Saran where i often go when in France i did not see any thin plastic bags being sold or given out - just some super-heavy reusable bag but i don't know what it costs - more than 10 or 15 euro cents it seemed for such a bag i would think.

I always have a day pack so the change doesn't bother me and i applaud it.

Robespierre

The main difference, as I understand it, is that petroleum (plastic) doesn't grow on trees. This is known as a <i>non-renewable</i> resource.

Also - in the process of growing new grocery bags, trees absorb carbon dioxide from the atmosphere and convert it to carbohydrate.

But single-use and even recyclable aren't long-term solutions. Permanent shopping bags are.

Now if we can just get a worldwide ban on aluminum cans...

flanneruk

&quot;Why is it better to destroy a tree than fill up a landfill?&quot;

Ira must live in an amazing country. They've got destructible trees. Everywhere I've been, damn things just grow up all over again.

PalenQ

The problem is also packaging - way too much - cans actually a lot less full than their size indicates.

And i've heard that trees made for paper yes grow back so quick that there is negligible loss in forest cover, in fact companies are planting more and more on presently non-forested grounds.

ira

RE:

&gt;&quot;Why is it better to destroy a tree than fill up a landfill?&quot;&lt;

&gt;Everywhere I've been, damn things just grow up all over again.

&gt;... i've heard that trees made for paper yes grow back so quick that there is negligible loss in forest cover,..&lt;

Well, if 25 years is quick...

Modern tree farming practice removes a 1 mile square.

The square is replanted (the trees don't just grow back), and ready for harvest in about 25 yrs.

Roads must be built to the cutting site.

Petroleum products are used to fell, log and cultivate the trees, as well as to make paper.

A Kraft paper plant produces CO2 as well as Sulfur compounds.

Plastic bags can be recycled.

fnarf999

Unfortunately the ground they're planting on isn't &quot;non-forested&quot;, it's just forested with trees that are unsuitable for pulp. Which they cut down in order to plant the fast-growing softwoods. This would be terrific if all trees and all forests were the same. But they're not.

In some parts of the world, like Australia (the world's largest exporter of wood chips and wood pulp), planting for these purposes is the leading cause of destruction of old growth forest. They're wiping out their ancient forests, and their rich ecosystems, and replacing them with single-purpose farmed trees that are destroying habitat for many threatened species, demolishing watersheds, and so on.

Wood pulp tree farms are not an environmental panacea, and are often in fact worse than the thing they're replacing. Tasmania has already lost a ridiculous portion of its spectacular eucalypt forests to softwood plantations. Where I live, in the Pacific NW, in the middle of the largest temperate arboreal forest on earth, it's almost entirely been replaced by tree farms, hidden from view by narrow strips of larger trees left for screening.

The primary justification for getting rid of plastic bags is simply litter: unsightliness. But the paper is probably much more damaging to the real environment.

Permanent bags!

PalenQ

Ira and fnar seem to make excellent points. I know Ira is from Georgia which is one of America's top paper producing states i believe and may be on top of this.

Wekiva

I thougth another problem with plastic bags was that in some parts of the world they are so thin that they are only good for one use and then people just throw them out...leading to a lot of wispy bags being blown all over the place. They then get eaten by animals and clutter up the place. At least I saw on the news that this was a problem in some African nations.

I will really miss the plastic bags here in the states...we use them for lots of things once they come home from the grocery store. I'm not sure how I'll pack for a trip w/out all the bags I use...not to mention:
kids lunches to school
bag for gym clothes in car
trash can in car
trash bags for small trash cans
laundry bag on business trips
my list goes on...and on...and on...

waring

The French law doesn't come into effect until 2008, however certain supermarkets are being keen and have stopped giving them away for free already.

You should have reusable shopping bags of your own, which are by defintion not disposible.

The paper vs plastic argument disappears in puff of logic.

DUH!

fnarf999

The African bags that were in the news recently are extremely thin -- thinner than the produce bags in American supermarkets, let alone the tan or white ones at checkout. They rip when you look at them hard, and then they fly around like feathers, lodging everywhere. The tan ones I use as trash bags -- I've even got a garbage can in the kitchen that is designed to hold them specially.

I use the paper ones for our food waste can next to it -- yes, in Seattle we now recycle our (non-meat) food waste, with our yard waste, to be made into compost.

katya_NY

I have cloth bags I bring to the store (in the US) after seeing this widely done in Europe... it still confuses most supermarket baggers though. They try to overfill the bags.

I look forward to a day when each bag costs $0.50- that might actually get people to act responsibly.

ira

&gt;You should have reusable shopping bags of your own, which are by defintion not disposible. &lt;

Like we did 60 ears ago?

Talk about radical reactionaries!

Fidel

Regarding uses of plastic bags after shopping: someone on a SF Pet Forum was wailing about how was she going to clean up after her dog now! Will this be a problem in France too?